Welcome to the United Nations | Department of Economic and Social Affairs

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Tenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in João Pessoa, Brazil, from 10 to 13 November 2015. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 

 

***

 

>> MODERATOR:  Hello.  We'll start in a few minutes.  If you could also join us in the roundtable so we can have a really engaging discussion, hopefully. 

Good afternoon, everyone.  I would encourage other participants, if you would like to sit here, because it's not open, we would like to have this engaging as possible the discussions.  We have very distinguished panels here. 

So thank you very much for coming to the sessions.  It is an honor for me to moderate the sessions, not only because being the mother of two little beautiful daughters at home, but also there are two reasons why this is very important.  The first issue ‑‑ the first one is that this child online is protection is a very important issue, an issue less debated in the Internet Governance realm.  Most all the stakeholder agreed to have this as one of their priorities. 

The second one we have been talking a lot about multi‑stakeholder and yesterday's session in WSIS, we also talk about multilateral.  But most people are more agree on the multi‑stakeholder.  And what we would like to present in this panel is the concrete and tangible experience of this session, hopefully will be very interesting:  I would like to introduce you to our distinguished panel.  Mariam Barata, IBU is actually Miss.  She's the director of General Secretary of Indonesia Ministry of Communication and Technology. 

The second one sits next to me is John Carr, senior expert advisor as ECPAT International.  The third one is not here yet.  He will join us after 2:30.  His name is Mr. Marco Pancini, European senior policy counsel from Google.  Last but not least, Mohammad Saidalavi, chief executive officer of Developing Internet Safe Communication in Dubai.  I'm sure there are lot of experience he has. 

I would like to come to Indonesia first and then Dubai and then go to John for the international and global perspective, Mr. Marco later on.  Mariam, you have the floor.  Thank you for.

>> MARIAM BARATA:  Thank you for giving me this opportunity.  Ladies and gentlemen it is my pleasure to be here for the protection of children.  My name, like my name is Mariam Barata.  I'm the secretariat of ICT application.  I'm here to represent MCIT Indonesia.  Please allow me to give you a brief regarding to Indonesia online child protection policy.  I'd like to have your attention to watch the video about how Indonesia children use the Internet.  Please enjoy. 

(No English interpretation)

(Video)

>> MARIAM BARATA:  Thank you for watching the video.  Nowadays, it is easy for young children to use their personal gadget, like a hand phone or notebook to create their own picture and write something and publish it without being aware it could put them in danger.  For example, exposure to children to the Internet to Internet and cyber bully among children by using e‑mails, social media, website and the last addiction to online games and pornography.  On the screen we can see some cases happen in Indonesia.  Case of bullying, this case tell us about a student who had to move to another school because he felt ashamed since her inappropriate paragraph shared all distributed by her schoolmates among them in social media. 

The second case is about a male doctor disguised to be a female doctor and used chatting facility in social media, asked the children to share their photograph which used by the doctor for the condition of the children.  In fact, the doctor is male, and he's a pedophile.  The doctor collected the photos and used it for his sexual fantasy. 

The other case is talking about someone who tried to be friend with the girl, and he asked the girl to go with him to watch a movie.  After that, they do sexual activity and the action was documented and distributed. 

Also online prostitution.  Some data from other stakeholders tells about what children do while they are using Internet searches.  The data from Indonesia agency from 2010 until 2014, there are 80 million children who had their access to online pornography.  That number is constantly increased over time.  As many as 90% of children access pornography online. 

ECPA Indonesia has placed 35 cases of sexual exploitation, 30 girls and 5 boys, from 2010 until 2015.  Indonesia Commission of Children Protection has indicated there were 932 reports on pornographic and criminal cases in cyberspace targeting children as their victim since 2011 until 2014. 

This has been done by 210 children accessing social media has experienced cyber bullying.  In other data is by Indonesia National center for Children, Missing and Exploitation, around 80,000 have been sexually exploited through Internet.  Indonesia with UNICEF and MCIT about children and adolescents from Indonesia.  I will show you the diagram we got from the research.  This diagram tells us about youngsters using the Internet and the highest states approximately 27% are children between 14 and 15 years old.  And all of them are junior high school. 

This diagram tells us about the motivation of children and adolescents to use the Internet.  The highest motivation is looking for information, entertain, and friendship.  On the contrary, only small percentage is looking for education and self‑protection.  Most of them are using Internet for social media rather than to find educational content. 

The last diagram is about communication patterns.  We can see that there is still 24.2% of them communicate to stranger.  Children would prefer to communicate to their friends rather than their own family. 

Children expressed their feelings and talk to friends or stranger.  But the good news is that the highest percentage of them are still either doing their schoolwork than hanging out with their friends.  What does the government do to handle those cases?  The government has been working with all institution and stakeholders, including Civil Society, private business, and also academic and technical to address various issues concerning children, especially online child protection. 

Our Indonesia institutions take responsibility to take care of children for children using the Internet.  For policy maker we have MCIT, Ministry Communication Information Technology, ministry, education and culture, ministry and protection of children. 

Next, law enforcement is handled by national police.  Besides that, public/private partnership, like protection children commission and other social community have participated to protect and handle the victim of cybercrime. 

Ladies and gentlemen, Indonesia has been doing many programs to handle about Child Online Protection.  The government has been collaborating with the stakeholders in doing the best for children.  As you can see on the screen, we have three important approaches to handle online child protection.  The first approach is the legal side.  Next is culture, and the last is the technical approach. 

The legal framework approaches are for children protection, children prosperity, cross‑system of children, and pornography, and Indonesia is in the process of building the roadmap on Internet safety and adoption on the guidelines of child pornography.  In Indonesia it is not different whether it is adult pornography or child pornography.  In law prohibits a person to own, produce, and distribute the pornography.  Child pornography, the penalty will be higher. 

As we understand, the responsibilities should be shared among multi‑stakeholder and these are some approaches we do in Indonesia, such as capacity building, workshop and training, and educational awareness.  

To short the approaches, our ministry has a program Internet checkup.  It means using Internet and creative and productive.  It creates productivity to use Internet for young generation and campaign for teacher, learners, and parents. 

Inclusion of safety model in school curriculum and cooperation with global network:  So Internet won't be used for just updating status, checking email, or playing online games.  But it is able to be used to make application for more useful purpose as well. 

Young people are expected to be able to create application for earning revenue for their future income and use it to do online business.  Indonesia has an annual awarding program to increase ICT activity for student and public. 

The government of Indonesia was concerned about the WSIS envision with the target of 50% people get their access to Internet.  To achieve the goal, Indonesia has a program called ICT volunteer to educate student, young people, society in remote, border and rural areas.  For technical approach, Indonesia has cross‑positive program, blocking prohibits online content, such as pornography, and so on. 

One of our stakeholders has a protection application to filter outside that are dangerous and violate the rule of law, such as malware. 

We are also utilizing the use of filtering tools in order to protect our children.  In Indonesia we have many applications for parental guidance met by Indonesia talents, like Kakatu and Zigy.  The applications are already able to be downloaded at the app store for Android. 

Indonesia has cooperated with YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Google, to block inappropriate contact when Indonesia decided public restlessness.  This is all my presentation and hopefully it will give you all knowledge about Internet activity in Indonesia. 

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your kind attention.  And I'm giving back to floor.

>> MODERATOR:  Applause to Mariam.

(Applause)

This story can also bring up more discussions.  I think there are some discussions on digital plan for Internet safety.  That's something we can, perhaps, discuss, but also from the audience that you might also have in your own country

We go to India and Dubai.  Please, Muhammad.

>> MUHAMMAD SAIDALAVI:  My friends used to ask me why are you left your job and started this nonprofit in India and UAE?  I have only one answer.  I have four kids and I know the technology.  Thank you for being invited. 

We are coming up with multi‑stakeholder and multidisciplinary approach to tackle this issue.  We have identified various threats on the Internet with the children.  Sex predators, bullying, access to inappropriate content, abuse materials, terrorism, cyber scams, child self‑generated content and inappropriate contact.  There are various secondary types of threats, invasion of privacy, identity theft, overspending, addictions, information oversharing, and losing control.  These are not limited issues which our children are facing online. 

What we have done is done an extensive study on what the nations are doing.  We traveled all over the world, U.S., Europe, U.K., to some extent Australia, and we identified these good nations are doing a lot of good steps towards protecting children online.  So we come up with a very strategic approach to build up excellence in the UAE and it was in India before, but we moved our hub into Dubai recently because the registration in online protection in UAE, with the help of UAE nationals, in Dubai. 

We understand the online child protection.  We have very come presence I have approach to this problem.  What we do is national and collaboration coordination, care and services, technical measures, law enforcement agency capacity building, and legal framework, the legal framework globally, because it's a cross‑border jurisdiction. 

Multi‑stakeholder, online issues.  Rehabilitation and reintegration for addiction and online abuse.  Enhancing the legal framework accord egg to the international standard, specialized research on the online development of children, cooperation among different agencies, international, crime against children reporting system, and state of the technology to the control. 

One of the materials and the programs we are taking and will be implementing in the local perspective.  We will develop a kind of OEM model of programs and that we can be utilized by African nations and they can adopt it and they can implement in their local country.  So we don't create one single identical program for all the countries.  It can be adopted and customized to the culture and the local requirements, which means 80 percentage of the research and the spending or kind of development can be done by ourself and the rest of the nation can adopt it in their country. 

Now, we have good news that we have registered in UAE.  UAE our mission is we are UAE nonprofit organization that strives to become the center of excellence aiming to empower Society to use Internet responsibility and to protect children from online risks by educating and spreading awareness, assuming an observatory and advisory role and constantly collaborating with the multi‑stakeholder. 

Globally recognize hub for Child Online Protection by 2021.  It's in line with the UAE national mission. 

This is the UAE late president.  This is his code, "The future generation will be living in a world that is very different from that to which we are accustomed.  It is essential that we prepare ourselves and our children for that new world."  Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed.

The UAE has the infrastructure.  We call it the meeting place for the west and east.  A lot of businesses booming there.  And obviously the people there are very generous in supporting this cause. 

This is some of the news in an effort to make UAE a role model for child protection, and various international events are happening in UAE next week.  We are in the summit, which has been initiated by U.K. government.  That is happening in UAE next week.  UAE is taking a lot of step in that route. 

What we can bring to the table, is this is our strategic plan.  It is clumsy for lack of the time.  I have to remember the Palladium Group designed a framework for us, and the plan is in place.  Our supporters are not limited to this.  We need to collaborate with, because we don't want to reinvent the wheel, what people have already done it, we want to take it.  We want to upgrade it into the national local content. 

So idea is to transform UAE into world leading nation on the subject, create a center of excellence on research and svelte meant, child rights expert and pioneers in Internet safety education, to produce cutting edge resources for our citizens. 

On there we are planning to develop a consortium called Asia‑Pacific Africa Safer Internet Consortium.  So they are all ready.  Through the diplomatic mission, we can reach to the Asia and African countries. 

Our idea is one of the things that you are planning to do is the hotline, which is recently changed.  This is the national hot line ‑‑ the green is what the hotline member states, and we want to have UAE ‑‑ from UAE to the Asian and African.  We will help the nation to have their national hot lines. 

And that's from my side.  Together we can impact millions of children's lives.  Thank you very much.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you, Muhammad. 

(Applause)

I think from the national experiences, I think we can ask John to comment on that, and also sharing the obstacles or challenges for multi‑stakeholder can protect child online and other countries.

>> JOHN CARR:  Can you hear me?  It's on?  Okay.  So I guess the first point I'd like to make is that from our perspective, and I'm here, by the way, representing the European NGO alliance, for child safety online, where I'm the special advisor on these issues.  And I'm also a special advisor to ECPAT International, a global NGO based in Bangkok, operating in 85 different countries around the world, although you might guess from my accent that I'm British.  And I live in London. 

So I guess the first point I'd like to make is this:  A child without ready and convenient access to the Internet is a child at a disadvantage.  And the country with too many children at that kind of disadvantage is itself a disadvantage compared with other countries.  So if you like, one of my burning passions, even though I come from child protection in my background, my passion is to get as many children as possible on the Internet as quickly as possible, particularly in the developing world.  If that doesn't happen, then the terms of trade and the comparative disadvantage of countries in the developing world will get worse.  It's why the slogan for this IGF, if you remember, is the next billion, connecting the next billion.  The overwhelming majority will be in the under developed world.  We heard a lot about the problems and the risks and the dangers that children face.  One of the best ways of dealing with them in my view is to equip the children themselves to be able to avoid getting into bad situations in the first place, but also a much more positively to enable children and empower children to use the technology themselves, to assert their rights, to learn about their rights, to improve their education, and all of the other wonderful things that the Internet has got. 

So the Internet ‑‑ I know we have to focus on the child protection things, but I sometimes think we sometimes forget that there is a whole other side to this, which is about the children themselves and the way in which the technology that can empower them. 

Now, we're here to talk about the multi‑stakeholder and multidisciplinary approach.  The first point I'd like to make is in my opinion this is not simply a kind of choice that we might like to make.  We have no alternative but to go for a multi‑stakeholder and multidisciplinary approach to solving some of the problems we've already been hearing about.  The technology itself, the medium itself, the jurisdiction and other challenges that it throws up, the complexity involved in that is simply beyond the capacity of nation states, or even collections of nation states alone to deal with.  They don't have the knowledge of the technology in the same way that the technology businesses do.  How could they?  They don't actually run technology companies.  They certainly don't have the resources either.

By the way, whatever you might have heard, I want to take this with my absolute assurance, the people of Great Britain are no worse and no better than the people in most other countries around the world.  So wherever you ‑‑ I know there is an Australian in the room, so I have to say that especially for his benefit.  We even beat them at cricket sometimes, but not very often. 

So we have this legislation, the United Kingdom, called the Freedom of Information Act.  Under this law we are able to write to the government, write to the police, any public body and ask them to answer specific questions.  By law they're obliged to answer truthfully within 40 days of receiving the request.  We wrote to the English police and asked them how many child abuse images they had seized in the arrests that they made between March 2010 and April 2012. 

Now, in the time frame that we're working in, five police forces out of 43 possible replied.  Those five police forces alone, between them, had seized 25 million different child abuse images.  Now, overwhelmingly there were repeats and copies.  There weren't 25 million original images, but there were 25 million individual pictures on the machines that they seized when they went to arrest men in that two‑year period.  One man in Cambridge was arrested with five million images on his computer.

The population, by the way, in the area covered by those five police forces was roughly seven and a quarter percent of the entire population of England and Wales.  A professional statistician, not me, calculated that if broadly speaking with the whole of the rest of the country similar levels of opportunities were taking place, and there's no reason to support they wouldn't.  Pretty much random sample, what that would imply is that within the UK alone, in that two‑year period, approximately 360 million different child pornographic images were on the Internet as it was linked to a U.K.‑based IP address.  What that is aligned the simple scales is they are manifesting themselves on the Internet.  If you imagine even in living in times of superabundance, rather than superprosperity, but began looking through all these images, it's simply not possible.  We have to have new and better technical tools.  This is where the industry has a particularly important role to play.  The good news is they're happy to play it. 

Here is another startling statistic.  So our police sat on some peer to peer networks for six or seven months.  All they did, it was a surveillance exercise.  Using a database of already known child abuse images, they simply counted the number of different IP addresses that were involved in exchanging illegal images that were already known about and were already in the possession of the British police. 

Okay.  So one exchange might have been one person exchanging one image with one other person.  But equally, it could have been one person exchanging five million images.  They weren't counting the volumes of images.  They were simply counting the numbers of IP addresses; therefore, the presumed numbers of individuals who were involved behind those IP addresses. 

Now, before I tell you the number that they got, let me also tell you that the highest number of arrests and prosecutions ever made in England and Wales in a single year in 2003, and it was 1,731.  So the highest number of arrests of people involved in child abuse image‑related offenses ever in our country was 1,370 in 2003. 

The number of people involved in child abuse images in 2010 and 2012 was between 50‑ and 60,000.  Okay?  So just do the math.  It's not difficult.  If there were no new offenses committed in the future, it would still be between 25 and 30 years before the last person that they know about now or actually they could find out about because they would have had to investigate who owned the IP address and who was the user linked to that particular activity.  The last person that could be arrested from an already‑known source wouldn't be arrested for between 25 and 30 years. 

Now, again, that simply underlines the point about the scale of crime that we are talking about when we're dealing with this.  And there is no way, unless 50% of the population of Britain were to become police officers, and we were to build 10,000 new prisons and employ a thousand more judges and build a whole new set of courts, there is simply no way in which we can conceive of dealing with this problem in the way historically that law enforcement and our legal systems have attempted to deal with it.

Again, we have to look to a multi‑stakeholder.  We have to look to assistance from private industry.  It's not easy for them very often to work with states, particularly after the revelation of Edward Snowden.  It's made it very, very difficult for some of the companies to operate and Snowden ‑‑ the good news is the will is there.  Microsoft, they have developed and are giving away free a tool called Photo DNA, which enables law enforcement or private companies to detect known child abuse images that might be on their networks or on their servers.  Once they can detect them, they can delete them and pass on the information or the user to law enforcement. 

Google, Marco is not here yet, but I'm sure when he does come he will tell you, that Google is developing a similar tool that deals with videos.  Because more and more of these child abuse images are now being made in the form of videos.  Google is developing and will be giving away a similar tool to help with that.  And we have to have these tools.  We must rely on the industry to produce them forwards. 

Now, how do these things happen?  They happen through multi‑stakeholderism.  Within Europe, for example, we have a setup called the ICT principles coalition.  So this is a collection of all the big companies, Microsoft, Google, apple, AT&T ‑‑ not AT&T.  Dutch telecom, all the big players in the European technology space, they are members of it.  They meet regularly with us as NGOs, with European Union officials sitting in the room, law enforcement agencies.  Actually, they're not quite often in the same room at the same time, but they have parallel meetings with them, where we help identify problems and try to work outweighs in which we can solve them. 

And our role really as NGOs in the Civil Society is not simply to help with the propagation of that information and help ensure that the teachers and schools and parents and so on are up to speed on these sorts of developments to make sure that we're getting the maximum possible impact from them. 

So there has been very good collaboration within the multi‑stakeholder approach.  I think a lot of it is driven by company's fear.  Not always, but if they don't act, governments will force them to.  That's the last thing they want.  They don't want governments jumping in and telling them to do this, that, and the other, because normally they'll end up with a more expensive or more difficult solution that they could have been.  But it would be wrong to think that only response of fear and pressure.  I know these guys.  I work with them.  I deal with them all the time.  Parents themselves, decent human beings.  They know these sorts of issues give the Internet a bad time, and gave their companies by reflection a bad name.  They want to solve them, too.  Multi‑stakeholder is a way of developing those sorts of solutions. 

I'll stop there.  We're already ‑‑ I've run out of time, haven't I?

>> MODERATOR:  It's not, actually.  You were right on time.  Thank you very much.

(Applause)

I think we need to wait for Marco first, but he's not here yet, so I would like to open the floor, also listening from your experiences.  I see two, three, and four.  So I take four.  Can somebody help me.  You first and then gentleman at the back and the lady here and you.  Thank you. 

>> AUDIENCE:  Let me present some observations.  My name is Andrew Schebowitz.  I'm from Moscow, Russia, high school economics.  You know there is one of the largest social networks called in contact or wica.com.  One of the largest social networks and website.  I don't know what situation is current right now, but previously there were a lot of child abusive materials.  They are not for any kind of payment.  They are distributed for free, by people who are criminals, of course.  I think that while we have no international legal regulation of this issue, this is one of the very important topics of Internet Governance.  We'll have those problems which are developed too much. 

Also, I listened to the statistical issues that everything ‑‑ every pornographic materials, at least 95%, is done by people who are in slavery, in slave positions.  So this is another issue why the pornographic materials are dangerous for people.  The only way to overcome this problem is proper international cooperation between countries.  Because Internet has any kind of borders.  We know that Internet is international system.  The only international approach could be possible. 

That's my point of view. 

Finally, I would like to use the opportunity to say thank you all Indonesians for organizing the Bali session of the IGF.  It was amazing. 

>> MODERATOR:  Gentleman in the back, do you have the microphone?  If not, you can step to the microphone.

>> FRANK PACE:  Good afternoon.  My name is Frank Pace.  I'm a sergeant with the Phoenix Police Department.  We are tasked with the digital forensic organizations.  I would like to reiterate and concur with the comment of the gentleman about the need for stakeholder involvement in all aspects.  In the field of the scope and the brevity of what we're dealing with, products such as net clean that tie into databases of known images are of immense value to us in the forensic field, because that helps mitigate the amount of time that we use to identify the victims in those investigations and allow us to then go on to further cases which, as you pointed out, we'll never get to the end of.  However, it's certainly a valued added as set.  And I would further add that the private industry, the NGOs and academia that assist us in the development of those products are key, because with some of those cost are an issue and having cooperation amongst all the parties involved is going to be a very large part in how we accomplish this. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you. 

>> Good afternoon.  My name is Ekbar from Nigeria.  The first speaker and what the gentleman said about tracking, I think we could start thinking about developing technologies that enhance digital registry for citizens.  In that way, we can easily track everything, because first, for you to be a citizen of the global system, we must have your profile.  So you have unique identifier.  So I believe we can do a whole lot of things.  Then you cannot even access the Internet until you enter that unique code.  Everything is solved.  So you know who is doing what at every time.  That's online. 

Thank you.  

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  We can discuss about it and how anonymity and encryption can do with that.  We go to the ladies. 

>> AUDIENCE:  My name is Sekr.  I'm the managing director of the German Center for Child Protection on the Internet.  I'm from Indonesia.  You mentioned in your presentation that you had 80,000 children sexually exploited on the Internet.  I was wondering what the criteria are for you to say this is sexual exploitation, and the background of my question is that we've just started an initiative called "no gray areas."  We are trying to expand the focus what is sexual exploitation and abuse of children on the Internet.  Not only are they depicting real abuse or abusive to the children, also when sexually explicit images, erotic images and I'm and which criteria you say yes, this is sexually exploitive to the children.

>> ROHAN BUETTEL:  I have to confess that I'm the Australian in the room that was referred to by the previous speaker.  My name's Rohan Buettel, and I'm with the Department of Communication in the Arts.  The Australian government recently established Children's eSafety Commissioner as an independent statutory office.  And it commenced operations on the first of July of this year.  The commissioner provides a national leadership role in improving online safety for Australian children, and administers a two‑tiered scheme for the rapid removal of material from large social medial sites. 

The commissioner also administers end user regime in which the commissioner has the power to notice that posted this material and tagged it.  The commissioner has a range of other functions, including promoting online safety for children, supporting and encouraging the implementation of measures to improve online safety for children, conducting educational, promotional, and community awareness programs, making grants of financial assistance and conducting and evaluating research. 

I just wanted to mention the way that multi‑stakeholder arrangements were incorporated into the commissioner's processes.  When developing policy for the creation of the commissioner, the government established an online safety consultive working group.  That group provides advice to the Australian government and now to the commissioner on the measures to protect Australian children from online risks, including cyber bullying, exposure to illegal content, and privacy breaches the CWG comprises members from child protection organizations, social media firms, researchers, academics, IT security firms, government agencies, and child psychologists. 

Online safety education provides ‑‑ it's quite a comprehensive body.  That body occurs twice a year, and the meetings are now chaired by the children's commissioner.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much for the explanation.  I'll have the second round later.  I would like to ask whether there is a question from remote participation.

(No audio)

>> MARIAM BARATA:  Discussing about anonymity, Internet must be ‑‑ nobody should know what I'm doing and that's one side of the discussion.  And we have another side of discussion.  And if you know the technology, it is almost impossible.  That's all.  Because connection and through the connection you can channel it, you can create technologies to communicate and various way you can do that, because technology, once you're connected and you can do various types of encryption, different methodology.  It is most impossible on one side.  The other side is freedom of expression and freedom of anonymity; those discussions are also going on.  But we have to approach this issue, online protection.  We were taking mainly on child abuse materials.  That's not only the child protection ‑‑ that's not only the child issues which they are facing.  There are various problems.  Cyber bullying, children suicide because of being bullied. 

Grooming, this is one of the big problems our nation is facing, children being groomed online through the gaming sites, social networking sites, and sometimes the physical connection.  They travel to see the child, to groom the child.  There are various child abuses happening online and the risks are of various types.  So it's really as we discussed.  It’s truly multi‑stakeholder and multidisciplinary approach.  That's why we are here today.  And I hope I answered.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Other response to share experiences? 

>> MARIAM BARATA:  There are 50 million children who have access for the ECBT, 35 cases of sexual exploitation.  The criteria from the sex exploitation, if I'm not wrong, this is like the cases from Indonesia is about cyberbullying from the male doctor, like the cases from Indonesia, or some ‑‑ the girl with the person to ask the girl or the child to go with him to watch a movie and then they make ‑‑ they do the sexual activity, like that.  Because this is the ECPAT, maybe from them.

>> MODERATOR:  Before that, John, perhaps you can also answer or response to the questions on international cooperation and also the gentleman of the police.

>> JOHN CARR:  I certainly agree what the police officer from Phoenix, Arizona was saying, that the law enforcement depend upon help from technology companies like Google and Microsoft and so on to help them do their job.  Without that, it's unimaginable due to the limited amount that they have already. 

International cooperation, yeah, I believe in that.  I believe in Father Christmas.  Look at the state the world is in now.  If we have to wait for international cooperation and new international regimes or unique identifiers, whatever you think about how do you spell good these ideas might be or might not be, as a child protection advocate, as a child welfare person, I want to look at solutions that are immediately available or going to help in the short run to deal with things, which is why multi‑stakeholder approach and multidisciplinary approach is possible.  Marco doesn't pay me to say this, but unfortunately, things like Google are doing now in relation to the video identification tool, I didn't mention in my earlier remarks what they're doing with their search engine, these are actually making a difference now.  Politicians, United Nations, IGF, they talk, come to these things, fantastic.  I'm glad we do.  But what's really helping to make children safer now and what the big technology companies are actually doing. 

Now, you might say, perhaps they help create the problem in the first place, but that's a different argument.  So, yes, I'm in favor of greater certainty about who individuals are.  I think anonymity is hugely badly abused.  Even if, by the way, even if we saw a greater implementation of IPv6, which is already there now, that technology is there now, that would help solve a lot of the security issues that we're tackling.  All of these things are very good ideas, which I will be very happy to see going forward.  Here and now, we need better solutions and prayers about what might happen in the future.

>> MODERATOR:  I think we have limited time.  I go to Marco first and I open another session for discussion.  Marco, five or six minutes what Google is doing.

>> MARCO PANCINI:  I apologize for my delay and I will be very brief so we can have a dialogue, because I think that's the core.  I want to echo what John said.  Actually, learning from the conversation and listening to the need of the practitioners, from the experts in this area, that we really could make an impact, because we build technology.  Building technology means to sometimes not being able to understand all the implication of this technology, some of the progress that we have made in the field of child safety, coming from the dialogue that we open with the sector.  We believe that's the core. I can go through the different initiatives that we implemented, but I want to come back to the one from John.  They were using specific technology that identify and capture on the database the worst of the worst for child abuse material online is the NGOs, and the second is even more effective, we basically take into consideration all the information that we have.  We are demote go all the content that is related to child abuse material online.  So we make more difficult to find this content.  When somebody is searching from this content, using specific keywords, that we actually we know in collaboration that we have having, we supply messages that are informing the person that the making performing the search that what he is doing is illegal and that if he needs help, we also indicate how he can get help.  So that's, I think, very important.  It comes not adjusted from our own initiative.  It comes from the dialogue that ‑‑ but I think it's very important what the dialogue for the question.

>> MODERATOR:  I open another session.  I see ‑‑ one, two, three, four, and five from Moscow.  You want to ask another.  John is leaving, so I hope you are here. 

>> AUDIENCE:  A couple words and comments.  In comment, for ‑‑ like your comment about the Father Christmas and international cooperation.  Personally, I believe international cooperation is the cornerstone for all the operation.  This is a difficult issue.  This issue is really ‑‑ it really is an international problem.  So this problem, I think, requires international solution.  But how to find it?  This is some of the issues, but the first I think we could find the consensus in making policies of child protection online. 

Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  The second question in the white shirt and the light shirt, and a lady back there. 

>> AUDIENCE:  I'm asking a question that I'd like to share about a new initiative we are working on.  For us we are meeting for ICANN, international corporation on names and numbers.  They have launched programs to allow people to apply for new domain like .kids, and the children's well‑being for both the domain names appear on .kids or .school.  And those kinds of principles could put children at high risk, because this kind of domain name is targeting children.  So for us we are now forming a working group on those kinds of guiding principles on the domain operations and also the best practice.  I strongly believe we've got to have multi‑stakeholder engagement.  If you are interested in commenting, we are open for you to come to us to work on this, because I think we have to the community to represent the guidelines for the future.  In our sense, having our question of sharing on how we can work together, because I know working on the group initiative.  Last year we have also worked together with Chinese government, but Chinese organization called children's Palace to understanding the online behavior, but also the literacy online.  We have content research in 18 main cities in China with over 20,000 parents and children getting involved.  In the situation we are more understanding how children is at risk and also now online behavior.  For the next step I'm thinking about is there is not only a problem on one country or the other countries, but you have a collaboration and cooperation in a sense.  Some group initiative like research or even sharing on those kind of how we can conduct the education is a must for sharing our experience and children. 

I like for last year is somehow like together we can build a better Internet.  Together with multi‑stakeholder engagement, from different industry, Civil Society, NGOs, and also government, we can build a better Internet for children. 

Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you. 

>> AUDIENCE:  Good afternoon.  My name is Felix.  I'm from netmission.Asia.  I come from Hong Kong.  A mother was encouraging her daughter to be exploited online and prodding to do so.  As you have mentioned, there are doctors abusing the child patients at the same time.  So in a lot of cases children are being exploited by people they trust.  So I'd like to know what specific measures can be taken or has been taken to proactively identify these threats that come from people that children trust.  To put it at the broader level, what can be done to tackle the demand side of the entire issue, because you can block the channels, the current channels of accessing, let's say, child sexual materials, but there will be always ‑‑ there will always be new channels that come up.  So what can be done to proactively identify these threats, while at the same time addressing the concerns for mass surveillance and privacy. 

Thank you. 

(Applause)

>> AUDIENCE:  Hi.  My name is Rigo.  I'm from Brazil.  I run a Brazilian hotline and also help line.  And I will just make some points about child protection, because I suppose that it's clear to everyone here that there are many, many different issues beside sexually exploitation, but also many crimes and other crimes and dangers that our children have online.  And I suppose that we are talking about child rights first of all and including our discussions we are having, about online rights.  We are talking about rights, but the child rights in general speaking.  For me, it's really important, even if you have a strong problem with child sexual addiction, another different right must be included in our discussion about Child Online Protection, even as an organization working online, I'm really afraid when we focus only on child exploitation, it is a big issue, but we can never forget that we are talking about child rights.  In the second point is this is moot, different types of problems.  So the best world and the best way and just we are CGI Brazil that have a mission to try to work with the multi‑stakeholderism to try to develop child protection online in Brazil.  The same big problem to discuss the different issues we are discuss you go at Internet Governance Forum, privacy; and all different kinds.  So I suppose we have to include major leadership, child rights and major leadership in general and try to discuss, because it's not clear.  Even in one country we have discussions about what is exactly child rights and protection about privacy, what is child rights for freedom of expression.  Multi‑stakeholder also at the Internet Governance and child protection rights in general.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  There are so many questions.  So I think I close ‑‑ for those that are standing, you can share or give remarks for one or two minutes at the most.  And then I'll have the panelist to close.  But I am closing the questions until the man.  You first and then.

>> AUDIENCE:  Good afternoon.  My name is Cleopatra.  I'm a law student just beginning the course one year ago.  And I'm interested about human rights and I'm thinking about doing a master in this area.  But every time I ask my professors about children rights take us a very long conversation and we get to nowhere.  And the lack of an international treaty about those rights allow people to do many things of human rights against the children rights.  All over the world the child brides that are engaged in artistic and fashion world are not considered at all, much more than in Brazil.  In Brazil, usually they're considered as adults because of documents that prove that their parents decide them to be adults.  How can parents decide when their children must be adults or not?  And how can we consider those children rights if there are in the artistic and the fashion world?

>> MODERATOR:  Good morning. 

>> MIRIAM ROJAS:  My name is Miriam Rojas.  I work from Bolivia.  I need an interpreter.  No English.  We have a huge challenge, which is teaching young children how to protect themselves.  And to start challenging the meaning of self‑regulation to teach them human rights from the first days, because this helps them become more responsible about their actions online.  I believe that all of us here in this room have a shared responsibility in this process, and I believe ‑‑ this is something that I'm very happy about.  We'll all work very hard to create policies that will enable us to have effective protection, protection from school, because when children start surfing the Internet, they're not really aware of how the system works and how information can be managed.  They don't know what human rights are and they don't know how to exercise their rights online.  All of these factors represent risks.  So what we have to give them is tools so that they can learn how to protect themselves. 

(Applause)

>> CHRISTOF PAVLAKIS:  Thank you.  My name is Christof Pavlakis.  I work for the Internet Watch Foundation.  It's online sexual abuse material.  We fully support the idea that we need the multi‑stakeholder approach to specifically deal with the issue.  It is the only way to have an effective system.  It's also good to see that this is discussed at the IGF.  I think there is a session called the multi‑stakeholder approach on self‑generated content taking place, which is good to see. 

From our perspective, we work closely with police with the online industry, the general public, NGOs.  It takes a lot of effort to do that, but it's worth doing it.  Just as an example, I think it is a good practice, a place in the U.K., that could be something that could be used in other countries as well.  The U.K. we have something called U kids.  It brings together all the development stakeholders being led by ministers of the government from three different departments.  There is high level support and commitment from the government and underneath mixed together Civil Society with the industry it can work in working groups on specific topics, discuss it, and the outcome, because it's an joint agreement between all the relevant players.  It's so much easier to get results afterwards, because it's already discussed with the players rather than one being implemented by the others.  I think that's a model that maybe we could take a look at.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you for the sharing.  I think I go from Merriam first for three minutes and then we go to Mohamed.

>> MARIAM BARATA:  In the first in 2009 we have the program for the children.  The name is the second Internet.  This program for the children how to introduce the Internet with the positive Internet to self‑protection.  And after that, we have the program for Internet checkup for productivity.  We put the ‑‑ push the youngers to use the Internet with the creative and productive for himself.  Maybe this is the Indonesia program for the children to push the youngers to use the Internet with the positive and creative Internet.

>> MODERATOR:  There is also a lot of questions about human rights and how freedom of expression.

>> JOHN CARR:  Many, many years ago in an earlier life I was a lawyer and an academic.  Human rights was my special field.  So please don't misunderstand me when I say international treaties have to be blind if you didn't notice, but international treat it’s sometimes fail if they deliver with what they promise to deliver.  And so as a child, somebody who now works in the field of child protection, child protection advocate, I would not be doing my job properly if I simply said, okay guys, this should be part of the UN machinery, the EU machinery, and agitate the treaties.  And new international laws.  That would be a lovely way to spend your time.  But by contrast, what we know with complete certainty is that there are things that can be done now do not depend on international treaties.  Do not depend upon convincing and how complex the machinery of the UN and international at any rate is.  The United Nations Convention on the rights of the child, perhaps the single most important instrument took 20 years from a Polish diplomats and Polish child protect advocate having the original thought to that finally making it into an international at any rate.  20 years. 

You know, they're great.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm in favor of treaties, but what I'm not in favor of doing nothing until we get the at any rate, particularly when we know the technology.  Google is doing it.  Microsoft is doing it.  The company is doing things that were actually making children safer and they're not doing it because of an international treaty. 

Absolutely, over 90% of all child sex abuse that ends up on the Internet that happens and originates either within the family or within a child's social circle.  Here is the thing:  You know, the biggest ‑‑ one of the big problems in this whole space is that children very rarely disclose.  They don't tell at the time that the abuse is happening.  You might find out, as we are doing in Britain now, 20, 30, 40 years after it happened.  Right then, when the abuse is happening, overwhelmingly children don't tell because first of all they're worried people won't believe them; secondly, because they're worried it might mean their father goes to prison or their uncle goes to prison or their brother goes to prison.  So they don't tell.  They don't disclose at all. 

And that's been one of the big things that we try to do in the work we engage with is try to get and ensure the confidence and the tools to come out and say no, stop this now.  Get help now.  One of the paradoxes about the Internet, oddly enough, and law enforcement officers say this constantly to me, is that it has opened up the possibility, a window to look into certain ‑‑ if you find a child abuse image, if you can identify that victim, using the technology that Google have developed and Microsoft have developed and so on and so forth, you have a chance of rescuing that child, getting him to therapy, getting him the support and help that they need to recover, and also getting the perpetrator, the rapist, the abuser that did it.  So it's a curious paradox in a way. 

It's true that the Internet has opened up bad avenues, but it's also opened up good possibilities.  My last point on this as well, again, to answer the point from the young man from Hong Kong, we now have online help lines with children.  So they can go and have confidential discussions remotely.  Particularly children that live in remote parts of the world, not in a big city or whatever, they can get help and advice in ways that they never could before.  And that's another positive thing, the Internet can help children who might be abused or think about children who have gotten issues about their sexuality and things of this kind.  The Internet's opened up doorways for them that simply didn't exist before.

>> MARCO PANCINI:  We need to also look at the future.  So I think there are some trends that we have seen today; so we cannot think that this is what we achieved is already satisfactory.  There is a lot of educational tools that we need to develop, digital skills we need to develop.  We need to address the Civil Society that we need to have in place.  So I didn't mention, for example, the fact that the two‑hour in the project we are supporting NGOs in education and different jurisdiction, including some countries.  So we want to go also beyond the similar technical can be applied.  We want to make sure the tools we are applied are useful for other industry players.  That's why we, for example, collaborate with other industry players.  We want to create open tools that can be used and shared knowledge that in order to make sure that the programs that we are developing are not only just Google‑specific.  I think this is like a war.  We can win this war only if we work together, especially if we think that we don't already have the answers in our pocket, but keep our brain open and to the feedback we are receiving.  We try to address without the needs in the different places, the different culture diversity.

>> MOHAMED SAIDALAVI:  Who should protect the child?  Parents?  Government?  Police?  Teachers?  Educators?  If a child can protect himself, nothing like that.  So that's why we are coming up with a curriculum and planning to implement the curriculum as a three dimensional curriculum:  Child, teachers, and parents are part of the curriculum.  So the child is already four years old should be getting the flair of how can I be safe on the Internet.  And the year passes, the parents also have to come to school and get trained, how can you parent an Internet child.  And so already we believe the child can protect himself.  Thank you very much.

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much for the panelists.  I think we should give applause to the panelists for having these discussions, and also the participants and attendees, because I think this is one of the rarely did I experience in IGF that we have such a big crowd and also engagement. 

I would also mention thank you to ICT for making this happening.  There will be some rapporteurs.  So we will have some of the discussions later on.  We will post it in the schedule in the Internet Governance website.  If you would like to check with the people you would like to contact or like to learn further from this discussion, it's already on the website. 

So thank you all.  So I hope you have a very good session onwards.  Thank you.

(Applause)

(Adjourned)