Welcome to the United Nations | Department of Economic and Social Affairs

Sixth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum
27 -30 September 2011
United Nations Office in Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya

September 27, 2011 - 11:00 A.M. 

***

The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

***

   >> CHAIR:  Good morning, everyone.  Can we ask the speakers to please come to the front?  And we will start in one minute.  Hello everyone.  We are starting.  On behalf of the Convenors of the Round Table, Women and Internet Governance Round Table welcome to all of you.  I would like ‑‑ the Convenors of this Round Table are Kenya ICT Action Network, Association for Progressive Communications, Verizon and the International Chamber of Commerce and the Kenya ICT board and we have representatives of these organizations today with us. 
    We have a lineup of speakers who will speak to us about different themes related to women and Internet Governance including cybercrime, privacy, data protection, education and employment.  At the end of this Round Table we want to come out of ‑‑ with ideas about priorities and empowering initiatives that will create more opportunities and build leadership for women.  It is very good to see so many of you. 
    We have sent invitations far and wide and I think that the turnout speaks to the effort that have come to ‑‑ that we have made to get a lot of women here today.  We have a lineup of speakers and I want to introduce them just very briefly.  And then, you know, they will speak for a few minutes and there will be time for questions later on. 
    We have ‑‑ we will have for the opening remarks Edie Adera from IDRC.  Do we have her yet?  We can do her opening remarks later.  We have from APC, Jan to my right.  We have Alice Munyua from Kictanet who is the most powerful woman in the IGF ‑‑
(Laughter).

   >> CHAIR:  ‑‑ here with us.  So you have to keep your eye out for her.  We also have Kathy Brown from Verizon.  Ayesha Hassan from the International Chamber of Commerce and later on we will have President Kroes from the European Commission.  I don't think ‑‑ she is in another meeting. 
    So that's our lineup of speakers today.  So let me then start with Alice Munyua.  I don't think that Edie Adera is here yet. 

   >> ALICE MUNYUA:  Thank you very much.  I think mine is to help I think with the opening remarks and just to give you, you know ‑‑ to go back to the objectives to this and we thought that an IGF and women session would be important to help foster IG but to begin with I would like to mention that Kenya has lost one of the greatest's woman, Dr. Wangari Maathai.  She has passed.  For me from my perspective, from my personal perspective she had an impact on me, a great impact on me because of just her life and, you know, her great life, professional life, advocacy and political life.  I would like to ask for a moment of silence before we begin.  I would ask for that at this time as well.  Thank you. 
    Thank you very much.  Appreciate it.  As mentioned earlier the idea of having a women and IG session was discussed amongst the APC and industry representatives from Verizon and ICC and we felt that it would be important, you know, to begin to bring all the women that are very, you know, actively involved in this area both the IGF process and the ICANN processes.  Generally ICT policy processes.  And to encourage and, of course, to encourage more women to be part of this process. 
    So I am very pleased to be here and to welcome you all.  And especially to thank the APC and ICC for having assisted us with organizing this session and the ICT board.  And to mention from an IDRC perspective I think I have to represent Edie Adera from the IDRC.  The IDRC has supported women in ICT research and policy advocacy regions for years.  Quite a number of research projects of the East African region and one very important one, women and cybercrime that is going to be representing on behalf of the Kenya ICT Action Network.  Having said that also to recognize and acknowledge that there are more women from Kenya and the East African region that are involved in IG and IG process.  And to just mention a few of them, the ICT board and Kaburo Kobia and Geri Leagon (phonetic) for her work for ICANN for quite a number of years.  Coming from a space where there is not so many African women, it is great to see that a great number of us to be involved at not only the civil society level but also the private sector.  And influencing Government policy and looking at it from both business civil society and also from a general perspective.  The topics lined up are quite interesting.  Next generation and education looking at young women.  Hopefully are going to look at that.  The idea of employment opportunities and challenges for women as well as looking for long term initiatives involving women in this area. 
    So with those few remarks I would like to welcome you all again and hand back over and say thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you, Alice.  So we would like to then ask Grace as our first speaker. 

   >> Grace:  I am just opening my documents now. 

   >> CHAIR:  Okay then.  So we will ask Jan then. 

   >> JAN MORMAN:  Good morning, everyone.  As Chat said my name is Jan Morman.  I live and work in South Africa.  I was going to talk about our work on Internet Governance and some key areas that is important for us to have conversations on.  Entry points in to Internet Governance and we see it as having a very important role in defining the roles and responsibilities of multiple stakeholders to make the Internet service an attractive and transformative purpose.  Our second entry point is to say that when you access the Internet you do so with all of your civil and political rights intact. 
    And we believe that they should continue during the process and during your interaction with technology and the Internet.  So our rights to freedom of expression, freedom of association, integrity and security of the person we shouldn't leave these behind and we don't leave these behind.  Another point for us is that currently the dominate framework is one of protection and what this means is that many actors who right now in our work is mostly Government and conservative fundamental forces are using the Internet to express ‑‑ rather than a frame of protection we need a framework of rights. 
    So what do we do as the women's program?  Our starting point is within a women's rights framework.  And our interest is the role of technology and Internet in realizing women's rights.  Over the last few years we have been working on two broad areas.  One is around violence against women and the second is around sexuality.  Our work on violence against women started with increasing concerns around women's experiences of using the Internet.  And over the last two and a half years we have worked on a project in 12 countries beginning to look at what is this technology related violence against women.  Some of the most common Forums that we found in our work which is in Africa and Asia and Latin America.  In South Africa DRC in Congo and the most common forms of these types of violations are cyber stalking, harassment, blackmail, surveillance and the digital manipulation of images.  For example, in South Africa and I am sure in other countries there has been the huge release of rape and violence against women.  We have found very little in the legislative framework to respond to this.  If a woman says this is what is happening to me, my violation continues and you go to the police station and the police says where is the evidence of harm.  So this is really a critical issue for us to begin to deal with both in terms of the perspective of how do we remain safe.  What kind of actions can we take and that's just one example. 
    And another example is within private and domestic relationships where perpetrators are blackmailing individuals to stay in relationships.  You are in a relationship with someone and you take a photograph or video with your consent and your relationship ends and that video is then used to keep you in your place, manipulate you and again you go to the police station and they will say well, you did it.  So these are some of the kinds of complex issues that we believe we really need to begin to address. 
    And some of our work in response to this is, of course, the whole area of policy development and looking at what some of the forms are suggested that we can take.  But the other is around raising awareness and capacity building among women around their use of technology.  What are the things that you can do to secure your safety.  The other area of work is specifically around sexuality.  And my colleague Jac Kee is here in the room and she will be able to respond to some of your questions.  And the project is called Erotics and it is a research project that looks at ‑‑ two minutes.  I have to be very quick.  It looks at the role of the Internet and the social exercise of different groups of people, to looking at people who use publicly funded libraries in the United States.  We are concerned with how content regulation impacts on rights.  And a big finding for us is the Internet is a critical space for the exercise of sexual rights.  So I am going to quickly go through these next two and focus on the responsibilities of states and responsibilities of the private sector. 
    The first thing we believe is that we shouldn't be too anxious to create new laws, especially in the climate of rising conservatism but rather look at existing legislative frameworks and policies around gender violence, around gender equality and violence against women.  We need to include women's rights and the representation of diverse groups in these conversations.  And we also say that the protectionist approach that is being used ignores other aspects of rights. 
    And lastly we say that privacy protection is key.  Private sector, the private sector and Internet intermediaries play a key role and we need to unravel this role and what is this role and what does it mean.  The focus so far has been on (inaudible).  We need to move to an approach that goes to accountability, particularly in the terms of use, technical aspects and also which considers privacy protection beyond data protection. 
    And again including women's rights and diversity of groups and decision making I am going to give you one quick example.  I have to go to my notes.  Facebook has a top‑down approach to policies and privacy responses.  Changes happen frequently and often when it happens you have nowhere to go.  In India there was a campaign called the Pink Chaddi Campaign.  When owners of the group complained about being Spammed, they shut the group down.  On the other hand, you have Youtube who allows users to be involved in decisions around the content.  So you vote.  So it is a much more inclusive way of looking at these issues. 
    And lastly, some recommendations.  Firstly, we believe it is really important to raise awareness about the impact of online practices.  What you do because often sometimes there seem to be some disembodiment.  What I do here is not what happens there.  One of the things that we are doing is we have a campaign called "I don't forward violence" which forces you to look at your actions and your use on a continuum of violence.  That's one area. 

The other thing we do is we really try to promote the participation of women's rights activists in spaces like this.  We have colleagues from Asia, Latin America and Africa and we spent two days before this trying to call out the threads for.  They are key in ensuring accountability and securing of privacy rights and to create an environment where life can be fulfilled.  And lastly we are saying that a framework of rights rather than a framework of protection is what is needed, because often a frame of protection results in criminalization.  And we also really believe and want to emphasize that the rights framework transforms the conversation and gives us a more empowered position to work from then a protectionist approach.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Can we call on Grace?  Grace is at the back of the room.  People can't see you.  Are you comfortable there? 

   >> Grace:  It is because I am reading from my laptop and there isn't a power source in the front.  Briefly I am just going to present.  We conducted this survey.  It was part of the Grace project.  And it is on cybercrime and women.  And it was necessitated by the fact that there is a lot of crime happening on cyber against women but there is no attention being given to the topic.  And yet women continue to suffer.  So the objectives of our study, what to investigate, the violence of cybercrime against women and we explored how cybercrime affects women and wanted to examine measures of cybercrime against women and determine mechanisms of engaging stakeholders to begin to address crime against women.  In terms of methodology we did ‑‑ we conducted review and unfortunately there is very little in this area.  And then we also interviewed some ladies who had been affected.  They ‑‑ one of them was actually participating in very popular show that comes every year and it is called Taska Project Frame and she agreed to be interviewed because she was No. 4 in the final contest.  And before that there had been a Kenyan who had been a favorite of the audience and participants, people participating in the show have to vote to remove one of the participants out.  And she voted against one of the favorites and there was even a head page on Facebook just, you know, to really abuse her.  There was so many things.  So we were able to talk to them and we also were able to ‑‑ okay.  We wanted to also talk to another one. 

In regard to the example that you have just given she had a boyfriend.  You know, in that moment they would take pictures and there were nude pictures of her.  And then when they ‑‑ the relationship ended he circulated them on e‑mail.  And the girl came out in the papers and told people please stop circulating those pictures.  Yes, it is me and I am very hurt and I am urging you to stop.  She showed her humanness and people stopped circulating.  In terms of what tool of perpetration, we found that, you know, usually it is e‑mails that are used a lot.  And then it is also on Facebook.  And again now there is also a lot of text messaging.  You get a hit message on text.  And I wanted to just say some of the similarities there.  We also found out there is some similarities between online stalking and offline stalking.  So we found that the majority of cases and this was now like globally involved former inmates and they would be strangers to people.  But also in the Kenyan case and especially on text messages a lot of women are getting that from inmates in our jails. 
    And then, of course, a lot of ‑‑ it is a lot of women who are affected.  And a lot of stalkers are generally motivated by the desire to control.  Now there was also something else that came out on the motivation why stalkers, what motivates stalkers.  And one of them is really sexual harassment.  They just want to harass women.  Some are also obsessed for love.  You have seen this man who really wants her but she doesn't him.  Relevant of stalking and then there is, of course, revenge and hate.  Another motivator was ego and power trips.  Harassers online they want to show their skills to friends.  They don't have any grudge against the lady but they use their skills to show off their power to their friends.  So we actually found out that cybercrime online is happening.  It is prevalent, but then a lot of people we spoke to, you know, we asked have you reported to the police and they would say, particularly this country they would say they don't have confidence to do that. 
    And I guess it is also because of the nature of our police force.  They will ask you such strange questions that you either get intimidated or you feel that they don't respect you.  So a lot of women will not want to do that.  So it is happening.  It is there.  And we also are looking at laws that is there a law that protects women.  And in this country we found out that yes, we do have in the Communications Act of 2009 there is a provision on protection but it is on computers.  It is on data.  But there is really no acknowledgement or law against, you know, for to protect human beings and especially women.  So one of the things that came out is that yeah, lead, follow.  But most important we have to make this an issue because issues don't become issues until people raise them.  So there is need also for advocacy and create of awareness.  So that we come up with laws that will protect women.  Something interesting that also came out of research women then fear to participate in say online debates because they fear being attacked.  They ‑‑ you know, they will make a comment and somebody will pick it up and turn it around.  And start, you know ‑‑ and go now to be issues below, you know, the belt.  It will be issues you are not married; you are single.  Just making women feel that they have no right.  So we find that there is very few women wanting to engage especially in debates that they think will make them ‑‑ that will make them be attacked.  So actually it is something that we also found out on Kictanet.  We have debates.  There are so many male voices in the debates.  It doesn't matter whether they are policy debates but have very few women doing that.  And actually Alice was one time attacked because she made a comment and somebody picked on her.  And it was not even on issues of contribution.  But it was on her personal life.  The lady in the Taska project told us she was afraid of even opening Facebook but she went to her privacy settings and set them in a way that even if you are looking for her on Facebook you wouldn't find her name.  She was afraid of coming out to town because she didn't know how people are going to treat her after she had read all the hate messages on Facebook.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you, Grace.  I think this puts to the floor one of the issues that women have been facing for a long time and I think one of the things that you were saying apart from law is really the education for law enforcement.  So that something can be done.  And that's a good thing.  So from this area we go now to looking at another area which is very, very important for women and that's education as well as employment.  So ask Kathy. 

   >> KATHRYN BROWN:  I am Kathy Brown.  I come from Verizon which is the largest I believe mobile provider in the United States.  We also provide broadband services in a large part of the East Coast of the United States.  We put in probably the fastest networks in the world and are now deploying the next generation wireless technology in the U.S. called LTE.  We did a lot of talking about this yesterday at the ministerial and whether the developing countries would embrace this technology as a real leapfrog technology.  And I will talk a little bit more about that in a minute.  And thirdly we provide one of ‑‑ we are one of about three of the large Internet backbone providers in the world.  So all of that traffic that's coming across the oceans many of it is on our networks. 
    When we think about women in this area, we think about three things.  We think about empowerment.  We think about education.  And we think about health and safety.  I was ‑‑ when I was reading about Kenya's amazing Nobel laureate this morning and I thought how would she be educating about the environment and organizing folks and getting the word out today and I would suspect she would be using a Smartphone.  I suspect that the tools that she would have in her hands now as many of you do now are the tools that are proliferating all over but have made our lives very differently and for women it seems to me we have to be part of a conversation about how these technologies can be used for our own empowerment, for our own education, the education of our children and for our health and safety. 
    The empowerment issue is enormously right now.  Our secretary of state Hillary Clinton, whom we as women in United States feel very close to, made an important speech this past month at APEC, talking about the notion of economic development of women and stressed very loudly that all people in all societies need to be able to participate in the economic, health and welfare and growth of their countries.  Once again as I read her speech, I see our technologies as an important tool to do that.  And we know as we listen to the various conversations that are happening here around health care, around job creation, around entrepreneurship for women, it is connection to the Internet through now mobile devices which are proliferated across all spectrums of our society.  And we walk along and we know that women have these tools in their hands, that this is the connection to the world of work, to the world of prosperity to the world of growth.  On the education side it is clearly apparent that this is a tool, the Internet for the education of our children and ourselves. 

So what are we doing at Verizon?  We are I think now rated the second best in the country.  I am trying to get its first online curriculum that is standardized across all of our age levels  and across a great array of subjects as a supplement for teaching in the schools and as we all know women are the teachers of our children.  And women need to understand how to use these technologies in order to be able to tap in to all of that information and expertise around the world.  So we spend a great deal of time both developing the curriculum and the Website with very, very good partners, including places like the American History Museum, the Kennedy Center, the academy of mathematics to put supplemental materials in the hands of our teachers.  And we do training to show them how to use these materials.  This year we have five demonstration schools all of which are in areas that would not have these technologies but for our going in to the schools to try to get folks to use them, to get teachers to use these technologies, for moms and kids to use them as well.  And I am going to tell you another piece of this which, of course, is the Smartphone with the cell phone, not even texting, the way most of our young women are talking to each other at least in our country.  I suspect here as well.  They are talking to each other in text and using those technologies, the texting that we can get information back and forth to networks which women do very well.  We have always been about networks.  These are tools that make the networks closer and more vibrant.  We are now using those tools for homework help, for conversations with parents.  Very low tech, right?  Texting. 

Then we go up in to the app world and able to now start to develop on our mobile devices the applications that people need to use in the home.  And it is a very, very cool thing that I will report more about because we are just starting, it is this wireless robot that will actually go to school for you.  Now imagine this, this robot which runs on our LTE 4G system has eyes, i.e., a camera, ears that has an audio system where supposedly your child is home ill.  The actual robot is in school.  It is watching.  It is participating.  It is actually in the schools.  So the child can watch what's going on in the classroom.  We will let you know how this all works out but at least three of our schools are going to try it and they are going to see if a child is home sick, whether he or she can't be virtually in the classroom. 

I want to make one last point now about family health and safety.  Violence against women is also ‑‑ it is prevalent across the world.  In the United States at Verizon we very understood the power of cell phone for safety and we have had a program for the last ten years called HopeLine and those phones have been put in the hands of women all over the United States as a way to connect to safety and health.  I understand what I heard two women just say it is not about protection.  It is about our rights and it is about educating.  The other part of this, of this system as to how these women can survive in a home that is violent, and in a community that doesn't want to believe her.  And so we have taken a lot of our resources now to work with law enforcement and have done huge funding to justice centers where all of the different pieces of the safety community can come together and talk to each other about how to break this very, very bad notion that the woman is bad.  That law enforcement should be protecting somehow the home and not her.  That the children are at risk and somehow we have to get them in to school.  And we are using our technologies as a way to network each of those pieces. 
    This year we launched a major initiative with men.  This is not just about women.  It is about men.  And so we have launched a huge initiative with our football league called the NFL and we all understand if we want to reach our men one of the best ways is right through our sports.  In the U.S. it is football.  We have a partnership now with the NFL to start talking about healthy respect for women and not in a way that shakes one's finger but in a way to talk about boys growing up with respect.  We are actually at football camps talking to the boys who come in to learn how to play football about healthy relationships.  All of this by the way we are using this mobile technology to make sure we are connected to each other and that we have the word going out that one could always reach out and talk to somebody else, be safe, be educated and be empowered in your own life.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you very much.  I think that the notion of a safety community and the participation of men because it is really a combined responsibility.  It is really fantastic.  Now I would like to ask Ayesha Hassan. 

   >> AYESHA HASSAN:  Thank you very much.  I am Ayesha Hassan from the ICT International Chamber of commerce.  I am really pleased to be here and speak to you from having had the opportunity to become a professional woman working in the Internet Governance arena.  I am not an expert and I haven't done studies.  I am sharing with you because I would like to hear from a lot of women and men in this room as we think together how we can motivate more women to be involved in the technology fields.  But also how to get more women involved in the Internet Governance processes that several of us are involved in.  So I am pleased to share some of my personal thoughts about this and some observations and reflections on things that we can all be thinking about in terms of how to give more women opportunities in terms of challenges, in terms of employment.  Just a fun anecdote.  I have been impressed in Kenya when I have had connectivity issues in the hotel.  All three of the technicians that have come to help me have been women and I have told them about this session and they were all really interested.  Unfortunately they are not here at the UN compound. 
    I think as many of us who have gotten involved in this area have experienced, I mean education has been a gift.  It has been one of the most productive elements of helping us to move along.  And so I think taking back to our national experiences to make sure that there is attention being paid in the educational system, all along the way to open doors for girls and women, and then in business we talk a lot about the enabling environment.  And we are also talking about it in the context of promoting innovation and investment.  And special attention can be paid to promoting opportunities for women to become small and medium size enterprise owners and involved in global business.  We have some executives around the room who are professional women in major companies and I think that thinking about what does that take at the national level to motivate and open doors for people for women.  Some of the other observations I have are around potentially some of the obstacles that are there.  Some of them may be cultural and that's something we have to continue to pay attention to.  The relationship between what women's responsibilities are along the track and life as they are getting educated and getting involved in being professional women.  What are the other responsibilities that they have in life and how does the culture support or not support them.  This comes back to also, you know, we see in different countries, particularly in some European countries they are very important enabling environment conditions that help women to both pay attention to a family life as well as to their professional life.  And that applies in the Internet space as well.  Technology is actually a ‑‑ something that can free women up, give you more flexibility.  But enabling women to have that kind of flexibility is something that may also take society paying attention to it.  It may take public policy approaches that help them have the support systems that they need.  Another thing I was going to say is we ‑‑ there is a lot out there about women and getting educated and involved in technology fields and the IT field but a lot of the women in this room are actually involved in legal management, policy oriented jobs.  And so some thought around how do you encourage and raise awareness around the world in the female communities about those kinds of opportunities and the kind of skills that they would want to develop to get involved.  I personally love what I do.  And I think that it is important for us to be very cognizant that somebody had mentioned in the attack online area that women may not be comfortable to engage in certain kinds of discussions.  But encouraging young women in different ways to build their skills, to get engaged in these kinds of professions is something we can pay attention to as well.  Lastly I also wanted to just touch on a couple of other elements that may be helpful.  Some people that I have talked to have talked about how paying attention to developing content that is ‑‑ that gets women more engaged online is an important element.  The multilingual element of that, so women are engaged in their own language and reach a broader array of women in that way. 
    And lastly I mean in the business community we often look around because we are really trying to find women professionals who can speak for experts on certain areas and we are very privileged.  We do have a lot of women who are experts in a number of the Internet Governance areas but paying attention to that and encouraging new women who have not had a chance to share their expertise, part of that is the community's focus on this issue wanting to encourage young women and women who are professionals of all ages to get engaged.  There is a group that has been formed by some key women in the ICANN space called the DNS.  And I hope to see that kind of initiative grow.  I think we can work together to empower more women and I would like to hear from women in this room about the opportunities and challenges and things that they personally have observed in their own environments.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you.  I think one of the things you pointed out is around the ability which is very important for women to be able to, you know, not be restricted in their mobility, technology plays a lot in that.  Of course, enabling environment to be able to take advantage of the technology.  I want to invite Dorothy Ooko now to sort of ‑‑ from ‑‑ who is from Nokia here in Kenya to respond to a few comments to the presentation just now. 

   >> DOROTHY OOKO:  Thank you.  I am sorry I just came a bit late.  We had some drama in the registration place.  So I really came at the tail end of Ayesha's presentation.  So I am not really in a position to respond.  I will give my impressions coming from this industry in this part of the world.  Regarding the employment opportunities I think working for Nokia in Eastern and Southern Africa what we have observed is more engaging developers.  Explaining what Nokia does we deal with handsets and the application.  A lot of developers deal with software issues.  We engage them to do work for us.  And we engage with a lot of university students.  We have a lot of partnerships with university students.  And I think in my observation it is still a male dominated area, male dominated field and our challenge has been to encourage women as well to just come and enjoy technology and see what mobility can do.  And if I look at our research centers as well the people that we have hired and looked at the people we have engaged and doing research most of them tend to be women.  Our office is very ‑‑ it is very interesting.  We have more women who are doing research and engaging other students to be able to be interested in this. 
    But I will refer to one ‑‑ we had a discussion a few months ago at a session and I think the challenges that women raised there was that there was a session just for women and they felt that that is not how you encourage women to be involved in the process.  That part of it is actually just having women and men being part of the Forum.  So if you look at the session today we are really predominately women.  And that may be a good indication is not having these isolated Forums.  So I am just challenging us.  Maybe inviting more men because sometimes some of the main decision makers, even look at GM or head of research centers are men and how do we engage them so they are able to see the need to have more women and to engage more women in these scientific, in the ICT Forums because if we look at ‑‑ if I look at Kenya and you know, I look at leads, they are mainly women.  Look at Alice Munyua, Kaburo Kobia, they are women.  So how do we let the men come in in the session.  So we are not having a predominately just women, female session as we have had and I think this was a challenge that was raised a few months back.  And that we need to do better by inviting, making it more open so that we are able to have an exchange on what we can do.  And how we can improve and where we can improve and what are the challenges needed or what they have observed.  The things lacking that we can then work on to make ourselves stronger, to make ourselves presentable and more competitive in their arena. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you, Dorothy.  I think what you have said and also what Ayesha was saying earlier there is Internet Governance space that we can be much more active.  If this is a room full of women, we have all these women who can participate.  There is no excuse to say that oh, but we don't have women who can participate in this space.  And I guess here at this session you will meet a lot of ‑‑ much more interaction that can be done.  We do not have President Kroes yet with us from the European Commission.  I think she might have been held up.  So can I ask Eunice Masigati to stand and give us a short intervention? 

   >> EUNICE MASIGATI:  Good morning, everyone.  We were expecting to have the Chair of the Kenya ICT board to present at this Forum today but in her absence because of other issues that came up I am going to share what interventions Kenya ICT board is working on to try and bridge the gaps in this Internet Governance issues for women. 
    But before I go in to that I just wanted to make reference to my own personal experience of how this issues affect women.  Before joining Kenya ICT I worked for Microsoft and while I worked there my job was a numbers job for those who are in a sales job.  And therefore the pressure was high.  I needed to get in to the job and try to be every aware where I could get my numbers and this is what women very often have to do as well as men.  But the interpretation of that and specifically in interacting with Government because I was responsible for the Government account, my efforts were misinterpreted to mean that it was the female in me that was getting me in the door.  I was called names and my colleague will bear witness on this, I was seriously insulted and I remember going in to a depression for nearly two days and getting specialized counseling from the legal department of Microsoft because it affected me for being insulted for doing what I was employed to do.  Therefore it is to say that the issues are real.  It didn't end there.  When I joined the government it simply followed me because I took a position on a mobile application that is changing the emerging markets and this is a transformable application that you have probably heard about, mobile money transferrable by Safaricom and Sylvia was supposed to be here.  But just to say that that was an innovation and it should be given its fair space in the market and I took that position because I worked for Kenya ICT board and our job is to promote the use of ICT.  So that be as it may let me just quickly touch on one or two things that we at the Kenya ICT board are doing to try and integrate for women. 
    One of the things we do and we literally practice is to take advantage of the law and I want to thank the Kenya government for putting along and saying that women or rather in the employment sector women must at least take up 30% of the employment space in the organization.  I am pleased to say we lead from the front and Kenya ICT board has met that obligation.  And we have a lady Chair and we believe we have done well and there is more work to be done, but that's just one of the things that we leveraged to demonstrate how we can use the legal frameworks within the Government to be able to give women an opportunity. 
    And so we are also having various initiatives that leverage ICT, Internet in general and we try to not necessarily have them designed purely for women but we leverage the programs that we have to give women opportunities.  I will cite a few examples and one of them is a digital program that we roll out at Kenya ICT and we have called it partial centers.  Now we have benefitted from a grant from the World Bank and our approach is to look for entrepreneurs.  When we advertise for these brands we encourage women to apply and therefore run the centers.  And it is our belief by women running these centers they have an opportunity to put in those centers the kinds of services that can empower women and give them more access and opportunities to express themselves.  Most importantly to exploit the information that is available on the Web to empower themselves.  We have a different project which is a digital content project which is driven by my colleague right next to me here, Kaburo Kobia.  And for this one we give thanks to the World Bank to people to develop both mobile and Internet applications.  When we advertised we also encourage women to participate and encourage the development of such content that can empower women more so they can fight the cybercrime issues that are being experienced.  It is our hope that content that women would develop and put out there would help to create more awareness about the opportunities that women have including employment opportunities because a woman who has a well paying job is actually a woman who can earn respect.  When usually they don't have ‑‑ they actually don't have much, except and I say this with a lot of respect to our men in the society, this content helps a lot of sharing.  So in my experience what I experience I am able to share using Facebook, Twitter all of these social tools and advise other women.  For instance, I personally take responsibility to advise young women using Facebook to be careful about what they put on Facebook and to be deliberate when they use the images there because the image could be misinterpreted or status messages they put there.  It is more to tell them beware.  Be deliberate it is what you intend to do so you are not taken advantage of.  So in case if you are taken advantage of so you know how to stand up for yourself and then to just generally have content that ‑‑ to encourage development of content that can educate women.  And one way again through the content brand is, for instance, we get applicants who are doing TV series, movies, short programs that can educate women and show opportunities for women.  That can help them to fight cybercrime and we feel that's good.  And most importantly the Kenya ICT board are driving projects towards achieving e‑justice.  Women very often will not access justice or it may be delayed just because they cannot help.  We are busy people.  We have children and we have to walk them to school and protect.  Where justice is completely minor.  But when it is e‑justice, when it is your appointment and you don't have to sit for hours on end.  This is one of the ways that we feel we are empowering women to access justice.  And again e‑service, e‑government and unfortunately there has been a lot of accusation in this space that people have had to (inaudible) and they get access.  We believe if we are to create a lot of services women can access these services at home and really bypass the people who interfere with them. 

Instead of looking at text from the negative side entirely we prefer to look at or we have elected to look at it from the other side and leverage the programs we are running to empower women to use the Internet.  We are encouraging students to come out and be involved.  You go there and find women assuming the space in the Internet.  This is in my view the way I feel would be the right intervention and lasting one.  If we have more women leaders in the ICT space and in Kenya we are doing very well because we ‑‑ recently they have been listed in the Forbes magazine a good list, respective list there.  Then we begin to have role models and the kinds of interventions that are lasting. 

   >> AYESHA HASSAN:  I just want to make sure ‑‑ this was very good and this notion of role models becomes so important.  So I wanted to make sure that I acknowledged our highest ranking woman in our Government in communications and that's Commissioner Mignon Clyburn here.  She is doing amazing work.  I wanted to make sure you knew what is happening in the U.S.  We have a women's voice at the table and we very much appreciate it. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you very much.  Yeah.  So we have heard different perspectives.  We have big and small initiatives.  And I want to open the floor for questions.  Other challenges and, you know, other ‑‑ other I guess initiatives that you think will be very useful to move our agenda forward.  So the floor is yours.  So let's have some hands.  Bee and then another there. 

   >> BEE HUAT ANG:  Good morning, everyone.  I think it is a very interesting panel.  And I think it is great women have more space now in IT technologies, Internet.  Quite fascinating because I know a lot of my friends in Thailand they are using the Internet quite urgent and nighttime and some of my friends will be online and think what should I do, blah blah blah.  It is fascinating in that sense when women are having access to use Internet but I guess my point, I am working with not ‑‑ yes, working and running together at the movement in Asia Pacific Forum on women, we work with women who don't have access to Internet.  Our concern in this world now is the communication of the knowledge itself a lot of the expenses who don't have Internet access.  The Internet we are using is now day old technologies.  We are enjoying in certain part of life and they are coming with cost for women who don't have Internet but they are paid costs.  What costs are paying we are seeing that women are working in the factory which is product ‑‑ IT production.  And we work a lot with the women in the factory who do actually complain about their working conditions.  And many of them in Asia are earning less than $100 U.S. per month and they work more than ten hours a day.  I think this issue needs to be addressed for women as a movement and supporting other women.  We say the power we share is the power we have.  What about women who have more opportunity to economic social but what about the other women who don't have that opportunity and they are actually in the supply chain of the product we use in the IT and that's my point.  And the other issue is ‑‑

   >> CHAIR:  Bee, short.

   >> BEE HUAT ANG:  Yes, I think it is fascinating to look at the other issue when women have more time to work outside the home and be in very high management level.  Many times we need somebody to work for us in the household and is domestic worker and I want to address the issue of domestic worker.  In many, many cases in many countries it is very difficult for them to have the right to communicate to their family at home.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you.  I also want to say that we ‑‑ to invite if we have the Serbian State Secretary in the room and also to say that she is like someone like our minister from U.S. also works on IG at a high level.  If we have her here I would like to invite her to say a few words.  Sorry, can you please introduce yourself? 

   >> MINNA KAILA:  Okay.  My name is Minna Kaila.  I run my own business and it is an ICT consultancy, I run it from the bedroom, the sitting room and the kitchen.  I am speaking on four points.  Thank you.  I didn't say I run it in pajamas.  I am speaking on four points and just one hell of a lucky girl because the first thing I want to speak about is my mentors, my women ICT mentors.  And that's one who just came in.  Her name is Dorothy Gordon.  She is the Director General of the Ghana‑Kofi Center of Excellence in ICT.  And my other ICT mother is this one that I have told to move away so I can come and speak.  She is Fatima.  These are the two women who give back to me technologically.  So I am happy to honor these two women here today.  These are women, they are already 2.0 version of them.  Now ‑‑ oh.  Quit laughing. 
    The other thing I want to speak about was for women who be participating in the Internet space we need to create more people like me, basically people who create content.  People who blog.  People who Tweet.  People who take pictures.  So we need more women content creators for the Internet space because I talk about what I am interested in which is mostly what we women are interested in. 
    My third point is on making the Internet an income making issue for women.  If I am making ‑‑ if I am using the Internet it is because it feeds me and pays my bills as an African woman.  So it constitutes an income and independence, financial independence for me.  So the day the Internet becomes a means to an end, then we are going to have more women because we need to take care of our families.  And finally, if I am running an ICT business it is because I can read, write and I can create content.  And this is because I am educated.  So we need to pay more attention to actually basic level education because the more women we get at a basic level the more we will get at a higher level and the more we will eventually get at an Internet and IT level.  Thank you very much. 

   >> CHAIR:  Very well said.  Thank you.  Over on this side.  Mr. Ramadan, yes.  Just introduce yourself and ‑‑

   >> I am Ramadan Rei from India.  I am the ICC BASIS Chair and Vice Chair of a company called Product Consultancy Services.  I am advising the Prime Minister of India on skills building for the nation.  What we talked this morning was with regard to advocacy is very critical including men as part of these deliberations.  I was invited to this.  That's why I am here.  Education becomes the most important part of and technology plays a critical role in education and we are trying to deploy to educate within the country using technology as a backbone.  And we talked quite a bit about the broadband and more importantly the rural broadband and the implications that it can have on education.  You don't have to go to school because the schools don't exist in a country like yours.  The schools, facilities don't exist.  So technology is going to make a very particular contribution in the role.  The empowerment comes through education and empowerment leads to employment.  Education for the sake of education is not going to lead us anywhere.  So the outcomes are extremely important and outcome base is the most critical component of all of these.  Having said that we need to look at the rural and the urban.  The urban child of the urban people get access to education and they can afford in a certain way unless you are in certain urban areas where we have very similar problems to the rural areas.  But more importantly the access becomes a lot easier in urban locations.  When you come to the rural population, the majority of the population the interventions are very different.  Technology will become available in the next couple of years through broadband across 250,000 miles that cover the entire country and followed by content and ability to spread the message of education, healthcare or any of these things which are trying to do some proof of concepts.  Women play a predominate role in education and empowering and creating entrepreneurship through some of the interventions. 

We thought during the next session we might sponsor as consultancy services some of these empowered through the self‑groups to come and participate in these Forums.  Language would be a barrier but we are quite capable of learning and understanding and then making an effort to contribute to these Forums where you see the actual action on the ground.  Coming to the urban side, women in the organizations are becoming a way of life in a country like ours.  We run an organization in DCS ICT component of 200,000 employees.  60,000 women employed within the country itself.  So the scale and engaging and employing and empowerment is what I am talking about.  Rural and urban we need to look at differently but any ideas which any of you may have where the scale, scale is no longer in thousands, tens and 50s and hundreds.  Any ideas, all the enrollment, empowerment, employment I thank you very much. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you.  Other questions?  Over there. 

   >> Gillian:  Okay.  Actually thank you for the presentations.  I am Gillian from Human Rights here in the Philippines.  We have been talking about ways, addressing issues concerning women and I would like to embark on a particular advocacy that we are carrying in the Philippines which is to focus on the continuum of empowerment.  Most of our laws are focusing on minimizing laws, but one particular concern I would like people from the private sector and even those in the Government agency to embark on a particular advocacy how we can continue women as empowerment.  No. 1 economically and second many times freeing the women from violence and thirdly from ignorance.  Using IT as a form of knowledge building.  If we can challenge or ask our speakers here in terms of what they can think of concrete recommendations of how we can continue empowerment of women particularly in the area of Internet Governance.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  We will ask our speakers to respond to it later.  But we can take two more questions. 

   >> CLAUDIA SELLI:  I am Claudia Selli from AT&T.  I want to mainly pick up from what the Chair of ICC said concerning empowerment which comes through education.  And at AT&T we believe that and we are supporting different initiative also to encourage education.  We have, for example, the pilot program to address initiatives where we address high school successes and college and workforce for students and we have an initiative to introduce girls to engineers.  We have women who are engineers, mentor to girls and share their experience to build models and then also we support other programs such as, for example, girls inclusive which is an educational program.  So it is for millions of American girls.  Particularly those in underserved areas.  And also we support other organizations.  I wanted to also to congratulate for this Round Table which is very useful and I think the debate shouldn't stop here.  That it should continue and probably also at in our different countries.  And raise awareness about that.  It is very important to think. 

   >> CHAIR:  I have a few people now in the lineup.  There was one hand here.  Yes.  And then I think here. 

   >> Hannah:  Good morning, everyone.  My name is Hannah.  I am a volunteer in an organization called Empower from Malaysia.  Okay. 
  (Laughter).

   >> Hannah:  I just want to make two points and perhaps one question.  One is that when we talk about doing legal reform rather than legislative reform, that three components today, one of which is actually the legislation itself.  But I think a lot of times we concentrate too much on doing reform on the substantive law itself and don't pay enough attention to the law of evidence and law of procedure and these two will kill you when you get to court and you can't prove your case.  For groups that are thinking about doing that think about procedure and evidence. 

Other things related to is the training of judges, that's one component and the other one is prosecutors and the police.  In Malaysia some of the prosecutors are also police if it is a lower level crime.  So you actually also need to do things like awareness raising and, of course, if it is a cybercrime, then you really have to put effort in to also informing the judges and the prosecutors about how to appreciate this sort of evidence.  I speak from personal experience because I am a practitioner and it is really, really tough to prove your case in court.  Now the second point I wanted to make is it is great to hear that you are actually funding programs involving men.  But for those who are interested there is also the White Women Campaign and Men Can Stop Rape which is based in Washington.  The other big thing to get funding for is research.  For all the corporations that are here perhaps what you like to do is put some money in to research.  Because if you don't have data on like how women would act when they are being assaulted whether sexual or otherwise it is hard to bring in to court.  And can I also draw your attention if you are interested in this research go to WCC Penang.  Yes.  And Penang.  Sorry.  WCC Penang.  Now if you go to this Website there is a section there that talks about the sexual crimes research that was done.  And some of the data there will be absolutely shocking.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  So we will take a round a few more and then ask our speakers to respond.  Yes, Leslie and ‑‑

   >> LESLIE KANE:  Thank you.  My name is Leslie Kane.  I am a wife and mother and I am a CEO.  And I am also Chair of the country code organization in ICANN which is the equivalence of dotUK.  So from that experience I would like to speak to the gender deficit in ICT and in women being involved in Internet Governance.  Because on a positive note I think there is huge opportunities for women in this area and I would very much like to encourage everyone in this room to get involved in chairing or small time speaking and making your points because as you can see we have good things to say.  The other thing I would like to say I guess as a CEO I have a huge responsibility to supporting women in the workplace and to leading by example in that.  And I think it is also part of a network of CEOs it is about encouraging other people to do the same. 
    And personally I think women can also be very good at mentoring and coaching as somebody was alluding to earlier and I think that people in this industry very much almost have a responsibility to help other women get engaged and play a role.  Because the opportunities are out there and we need to have a much stronger voice.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you.  Dorothy. 

   >> DOROTHY ATWOOD:  Thanks.  I want to apologize for coming in late but because this was a session that was very ‑‑ oh, sorry.  There is two Dorothies. 

   >> CHAIR:  This is Dorothy Atwood. 

   >> DOROTHY ATWOOD:  Okay.  Actually I am just incredibly impressed with the number of Dorothies in this room.  It is remarkable.  So yay.  My name is Dorothy Atwood.  I am with the Walt Disney Company.  Let's not just focus on women as in the context of philanthropy.  Focus on women as a marketing opportunity.  Technology with women is different than technology with men.  So when women account for 6 out of 7 of the purchasing decisions globally, when it comes to the home and when it comes to the marketplace, if businesses focus on the power of women in the commercial marketplace, that's a very powerful impetus to, in fact, increase participation of women as consumers and women as business executives.  

So let's focus on that market opportunity and then I point out there was a great work done by women, the GSMA Foundation that I know is sponsored by several of the people in the room, AT&T and Vodafone are sponsors of that.  Work was done when women use cell phones, there is a disparity in the current use of cell phones.  Two‑thirds of cell phones are owned by men but that's a market opportunity for companies targeting women.  And the fascinating thing is when women use the technology what they tend to use it for is for the family and community.  So a woman's ‑‑ getting technology in the hands of women tend to become much more associated with economic development for the entire community than simply for the benefit of that particular user.  And so we can't lose sight again about the fact that there is a real sustainable model for pushing technology in the hands of women and how that can actually increase the overall economic development of the region.  So I just wanted to make those observations and some really good work being done by GSMA and I would encourage people to look at that.

   >> CHAIR:  Which reminds me of the saying when you educate a woman you educate a community.  You did raise your hand.  I didn't forget.  Okay. 

   >> MARILYN CADE:  Thanks.  My name is Marilyn Cade.  I, too, sometimes operate my business from wherever I am in my house or wherever I am in a coffee shop.  I had the unique opportunity my second trip to Kenya this time to join the Computer Society of Kenya in visiting a rural girls school.  It was a very profound opportunity for me and I wanted to touch on something that I am hearing that I hope we will all think more about and that is how we broaden the understanding of the importance of basic education and that basic education now has to include this new concept of digital competency. 
    For all of us who want our young women to have active social lives and to be able to find rich information and interactions, in order to be safe and find that information and resources they need, they need to have some coaching on what they are going to experience in the online world and not only devices and software and applications but they also need coaches.  And so one of the missing links sometimes particularly in the rural schools around the world are teachers who have a comfort level with the use of Internet and the Web as a teaching tool or even have access.  I would just also ‑‑ so I am going to say two other things.  Sometimes we see Governments partnering with the private sectors to initialize the growth of cyber cafes and there are cultures that women in rurals are not going to have access to cyber cafes and schools might provide a different option.  One of the things that has happened in schools is when a school gets a computer lab it is able to open the lab up at other hours when the children are not using it to the community and begin to build training.  So now I am going to come to my final point.  At the IGF we have focused on trying to create awareness among Governments to come and participate actively. 
    I think we need to broaden our outreach to not just the ministers of information and the ministers of ICT but the ministers of education and the ministers of health since those are the ministers who today may be deploying e‑digital applications and centers and we may be able to make a great deal of progress for them as they are going to be investing in building digital access and we may be able to encourage them to better understand the needs that we see. 

   >> CAROLINE WAMALA:  Hello.  Hi.  My name is Caroline Wamala and I am from the Swedish program for ICTs.  I have a small comment.  I think it is great that we finally have a panel on women at the IGF.  I have been following this very closely since 2006 and I think we also need to be careful and remember that women are not a homogeneous group.  We must take in to consideration the heterogeneity of women.  As we are discussing technical aspects, there are all these different levels of intersection that we should take in to consideration. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you for that comment.  And I think you will find it here that this diversity expressed here from all different backgrounds and bringing in very diverse concerns.  I would like to come back to Dorothy.

   >> DOROTHY GORDON:  A special lunch for all the Dorothies afterwards.  My name is Dorothy Gordon.  And I am here actually as part of the first of the free software and open source foundation for the African delegation.  I want to call the attention to the group to the open movement.  I think it is very important that we pay far more attention than we have been as women to that dimension of IT.  But the real issue I want to bring to the table is how we are going to measure process.  All this talk about whether it is women in general in IT or about Internet Governance and women we don't have very clear metrics for how we are going to measure progress.  Now there is no point I believe in lobbying Government.  Sometimes I am part of Government.  There is no point lobbying Government unless you have something which can give them a scorecard that they can see very clearly where they are.  And I have been very short to find out that much of the data at least on the African continent, much of the data concerning IT has not been gender desegregated, even though there is very clear guidelines in the UN statistics office about the desegregation of data.  We are not seeing it for IT.  I think we have very basic things that we can do as a group to define the metrics and then challenge people to improve their metrics.  Otherwise we will just keep going round and round. 

I have been profoundly ‑‑ there are all male panels at the meetings I go to.  Even in institutions which are theoretically headed by women.  You go to the meeting and it is all male panels.  And we are told there are no women in IT who can actually be the face of women in IT at some of these meetings.  So I really believe it is also important that we put together a database so that nobody has an excuse and if they are looking for a woman speaker they will be able to find that speaker and we will have something that we will just click on a button on the panels at these conferences and we will be able immediately to see the percentage of female representation.  You can mentor the girls at a certain level but if they are seeing on TV that it is all men they will only go so far. 

   >> CHAIR:  We only have a few more minutes.  I will call on two more who are in the lineup.  Here. 

   >> Geri:  Hi.  Good afternoon.  My name is Geri and I really don't want to say anything at this point because most of us have said most of what we would like to say.  I would like to acknowledge Catherine Rungo and I don't know how many other chics are here.  They won a grant to develop the application and I think this is one of the upcoming younger generation of women who are actually doing great things here in Kenya and beyond.  And let's applaud her and give her a chance to say something. 

(Applause)

   >> Catherine:  Hi all.  My name is Catherine.  And I am one of the career chics.  Most of you know about career chics.  It is a program of women in IT.  We came together trying to encourage more female participation in the IT sector.  And we tried that by reaching out to the ladies, the underprivileged girls in the community.  We recruited 35 of them and took them through training for one year.  And we had 20 of them graduate about two months ago and we have been trying to mentor them and encourage them to develop worksites.  And some of them are getting in to mobile applications.  And aside from that career chics we have been trying to develop applications that can help change the world.  We have one of the products we developed is an Nphone.  It is a mobile application that helps produce together and we also won a grant through World Bank which we are starting to use now to encourage more women and more participants through developing mobile applications that can help change the world.  So I would say we are on our way to getting there and we are helping more and more women come out.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you.  So the last point on this side.  Yes.  Okay.  Last two.  Yes. 

   >> Ann:  Thank you.  My name is Ann.  I come from (inaudible).  I am wondering, of course, a lot has been said about women and ICT but I am wondering if there is anyone making efforts to answer, making it easy for women to politically participate using ICT because we all know what happened here in 2007, 2008.  We use the Internet and our mobile phones to propagate violence and to give ‑‑ to spread hate messages around.  Is there anyone trying to reverse that trend using ICT to make it easy for women to politically participate and to also make it easy for us to now propagate peace messages using the mobile phones?  I really would like to hear if there is anyone in the audience who is already doing that so that you can talk to each other.  Thank you.

   >> CHAIR:  Also if anyone would ‑‑ if you know of any initiatives, talk to her directly.  Can I have the last point?  Jac, you wanted to say something? 

   >> JAC SM KEE:  I just ‑‑ hello my name is Jac Kee.  I am from the Association for Progressive Communications.  I want to say that this year at the IGF we have been trying to implement a gender report card for the IGF which is basically five basic questions to ask organizers of workshops to fill in a number of speakers for men and women, which is integrated in to the content and analysis and if you would like to help us volunteer.  Please do and come and talk to me.

   >> CHAIR:  Ayesha is on the line.  She has been there for a half hour. 

   >> AYESHA HASSAN:  I wanted to thank all the speakers in New York.  I think it is a really important discussion and I come from the Women's Human Rights Movement and it is interesting to be in the space and see some of the connection.  And I thought it was interesting when Jan started by saying when we access the Internet we do with our civil and political rights intact.  But not to forget and also in our strategizing initiatives the issue of culture and, of course, culture can be a site of creativity and innovation and there is also disempowering factors that can limit our access to rights.  I work with a campaign and we work with countries and communities in Africa and Asia and this is an issue we look at how we can reclaim culture and work against culture barriers.  Any initiatives that happen from civil society, I think also need to take this in to account.  Especially in terms of access just because a household might be connected where, you know, I think that this was raised earlier, you know, we don't know who is accessing the Internet or other forms of communication and what are the barriers to do that.  Language is one.  And I think that gender is another and age and minority status.  I think with the support of Governments in terms of policy we can keep in mind social barriers and society barriers.  Thanks. 

   >> CHAIR:  So can I ask Kathy and Jan to just respond quickly? 

   >> So I think this last hour and a half shows that if you do put a room full of women together there is no stopping us.  And the diversity of thought in the room, the expertise here and the advocacy that you already see at work, it seems to me that the next agenda has actually been discussed here.  It felt to me like I heard the various issues that were raised that there is a next agenda, that the best thing we can do out of this is go back and take a look and I am assuming we are going to keep all of this and figure out what that next agenda is for the next time that people want to move on that and take action steps.  Since we say we are Internet centered I wonder how we can capture that and have a way to communicate after this meeting is over.  There is folks in the room that can help us facilitate that.  It seems to me rather than walk out and go have lunch we might want to think about what's the next agenda.  Thank you.

   >> I don't have much more to say because I think all of it has been said here but I think it would be important for us to think about what practical action can we take as we move to the next sessions.  And one of the those things to be heard and to talk about the issues we are talking about here and thinking about the feeder workshops so it moves beyond and out of spaces that I think some of you have said and Jac is saying something to me. 
  (Laughter).

   >> And the other point that I wanted to make is that I think we have really started talking about the strategies we are already using and we should go back to them.  The point that Dorothy made is something we should start thinking about ‑‑ Dorothy Atwood.  Both Dorothies actually raised issues that we need to begin to engage with much more deeply, the whole area around research and evidence holding and sharing that information in the spaces where we need to be.  So yeah.  Hope to hear many of you.  I am going to follow the Tweet and to hear you in the rest of the sessions at the IGF.  Thank you. 

   >> CHAIR:  Grace, did you want to say something? 

   >> Grace:  I think I must say I am very pleased at the level of debate.  Because where we are conceptualizing, I remember saying only 29 people confirmed and we think we might start talking to ourselves.  But I must say that certain issues have come up and must think of how to take them forward.  No. 1 is this whole question of education.  I am working with some young women in informal settlements and have just been trying to look at how they have been using the ICTs and like Eunice pointed out how ‑‑ you want to find out how women are engaging, you want to find out how the men are doing.  I also talked to the boys and the girls  in the informal settlements.  Boys have figured it out.  They know who gets better Internet and better downloads for music and the girls just know how to use it.  And when I ask why don't you make better use of the Internet and they say Grace, how much time do I have.  The boys said one of the solutions is to have ICT education starting from school because then their sisters will have no choice but to start Tweeting.  It is true education but also have issues of cybercrime.  Issues of awareness, what do you put out there as a young woman.  So that's what I wanted to say.  So people in education I think all of us must start advocating for this agenda to be put in to this curriculum. 

   >> CHAIR:  Thank you, Grace.  To end and close the Round Table can I ask Kaburo to close it for us? 

   >> KABURO KOBIA:  I want to thank Chat for moderating this session.  You have done a wonderful job.  There is so much to say and we ended up pretty much on time.  I want to thank the speakers today for their insights and sharing on the work that they have done and research.  Thank you Grace, Alice Munyua, Jan Morman, Kathryn Brown and Dorothy and Ayesha.  You have done a great job.  Round of applause for the speakers. 
   (Applause.)

   >> KABURO KOBIA:  And Eunice and I want to give a special thanks to Alice Munyua who is running the whole IGF.  She is a stellar women.  We should really thank her for the wonderful work she has done and the leadership she has provided.  Round of applause for her. 
   (Applause.)

   >> KABURO KOBIA:  We had a group of women to put this Round Table together and I want to thank again Grace, Ayesha, Chat, Garcia, Theresa.  Thank you for your leadership and the idea for this particular Round Table and thank you to everyone who came ‑‑ I haven't quite finished.  I want to thank the Rapporteur and the videographers.  As mentioned we are taking notes and we will have some results out of this discussion.  All the people who are taking notes are going to report back on what we discussed.  Thank you very much and thank you very much everyone for turning out.  We are so excited to see that you have come here.  There is a lot of interesting things going on at IGF.  Thanks for coming and sharing your experience and insight.  And I think we have learned a lot.  Thank you very much for coming. 
   (Applause.)
    (Session concluded)

                                                               

                              *****