The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Tenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in João Pessoa, Brazil, from 10 to 13 November 2015. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> ANDREA SAKS: Please, excuse me, look at the document and check if it's correct. This is the first, right? Look. Right?
The second, right? This is the second. Okay. Can you hear me, captioner? Who have I got, actually? It's Andrea.
>> ROY GRAVES: This is Kris Blake.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Kris Blake, I believe your boss is in here telling me who you are. This is Kris Blake. All right. Thank you. Great.
For those of you who are on remote, do we have anyone on remote? Still not in. Where has she gone? We don't -- we're having a few technical difficulties. Geetha and Kristine, can you hear us and will you respond, please? I don't know if you're going to respond by voice or by text. Guess Gita, please. No, I don't want anybody muted. You'd rather have everybody go crazy, okay. Okay. She can't respond because she's muted. We're about to unmute. Geetha, also when you get on, give your last name and who you are, please. I need a piece of paper. So we'll talk to Kristine first. Hi, Peter. We've been having technical -- Judy's gone to the hospital, so we don't -- wait a minute. Sorry, there's been a delay. Thank you. Can I have that? Thank you.
Hi. Ladies and gentlemen, if anybody is listening, I'm checking to see who is unmuted. Geetha, can you communicate? If not, can you chat in the chat box and give who you are.
Okay. Geetha, can you speak, please.
>> GEETHA HARIHARAN: Hello. My name is Geetha.
>> ANDREA SAKS: When you come back, he hears her, but we don't hear her. Can you -- can you -- okay. Can you respond to her and ask her who she --
>> DERRICK COGBURN: I heard her.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Yeah, but I want to hear her in the room. So how do we hear her in the room? We're having -- anybody else who's listening, we're having technical difficulties. Have we got Gerry on the phone yet? Is Gerry on the phone?
Okay. How about calling Gerry on the phone. Have we got him on yet? We're 15 minutes late.
All right. This is Andrea Saks. I'm the coordinator for the Dynamic Coalition on Accessibility and Diff -- Disabilities. We might as well say difficulties. Can you read out -- put your mic on. Can you read out what's being said or if she's talking or identifying? Can you give the information? Yes.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Geetha spoke and introduced herself.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, Geetha from India. Okay. Give us your last name, Geetha, please.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: I can hear her.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Turn on your mic so it goes up in the captioning. It's okay. I know it's going to cause feed --
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Her name is Geetha Hariharan. That's all she said.
>> ANDREA SAKS: And what organization are you with, Geetha?
>> DERRICK COGBURN: This is not going to work. If they're connected to the room, her audio should be coming to them and into the room.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Okay. You want me to come in? He's bringing it here. Thank you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: We're still working with technical issues, so we can hear you all, Geetha. Sorry, I didn't understand what was happening.
(Microphone feedback)
No, that's --
(Microphone feedback)
We're still having technical problems. Geetha, can you use the chat box and please respond by chat because we're having problems with sound.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: So, Geetha is connecting -- Geetha Hariharan, Centre for Internet and Society in India.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay. We're going to start. We've had problems. Have you got Gerry?
>> (Off microphone)
>> ANDREA SAKS: There are free WebEx numbers for access in most countries except India. There are.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: No, no, but you can't call --
>> ANDREA SAKS: No, but you can give me the number and send the number to him. You look up the number.
>> Yeah, I have the number now.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay. Let's give him the number. Hold on. Now -- just a second. Sorry, everybody's learning how we're doing this here. It's the first attempt for these people to deal with the people who cannot use the wonderful WebEx. Just a minute. Can we just get Peter? All right. Hang on a minute. All right. Gerry Ellis. Place call. What's the number?
>> +3 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: +353 --
>> -- 15 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: -15 --
>> -- 600 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: -- 600 --
>> -- 50.
>> ANDREA SAKS: That's 8. That's okay, dear. 58. Repeat, check, 353-152-6 -- okay.
>> (Off microphone)
>> ANDREA SAKS: The access code. Okay. Access code.
>> 958 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: 958 --
>> -- 167 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: -- 167
>> -- 681.
>> ANDREA SAKS: -- 681. Sorry, you're right, it is.
1 -- oh, damn. You're going to have to send it. 167 --
>> 681 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: 681 --
>> ANDREA SAKS: That's it. Okay. Access code.
Okay. All right. Hang on. I have to do call this -- these number -- or this number. This number. Okay. Okay.
>> JAMES: I'm James. I'm the technical coordinator. I apologize for the technical issues. So we have the local audio sound team working on the echo issues.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Right.
>> JAMES: I'm going to sit in with the WebEx volunteers. They're local students.
>> ANDREA SAKS: That's fair enough, but on the accessibility team, never put volunteers, put professionals, but we say this to everybody. This happens every year.
>> JAMES: I know. I apologize.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Now, so I -- we don't know, does Cheryl have the code? She said she sent an email. Do we have a number from Australia for Cheryl to call in?
>> JAMES: Yes, I can get that.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Give me that quickly, and the same pass code?
>> JAMES: Yes.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay. Let me get that sorted out. Nearly there, so just hang on. We're just going to get Cheryl the telephone number and the pass code, and then we'll start in a few minutes.
Sorry, we've had some technical details. I'm going to start. Some people will be joining a bit later. There is somebody going to be going around with a piece of paper who they would like you to please sign on. If you're sitting at the back, could you sit at the table so you could speak, please, because we want your participation, not just your gorgeous face in the back.
My name is Andrea Saks. I'm the coordinator for the Dynamic Coalition on Accessibility and Disability and I'm also the chair for the Joint Coordination Accessibility and Human Factors for the ITU.
On my left is Francesca, who will introduce herself by herself. Push your button.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Francesca Cesi Bianchi with the G3ict, the Global Initiatives for Inclusive Technology, and I am in charge of institutional relations for G3ict, and I am one of the editors of the DCAD Accessibility Guidelines 2015.
>> ANDREA SAKS: And just so we can record the ladies and three gentlemen that we have on that, I'm going to ask you all to identify yourself because it makes it a lot easier for me it call on you or recognize you when you put your hand up. I'll start with you, please with the pink top. Just push the button for the microphone, introduce yourself, and where you come from, please.
>> ELAINE ARAUJO: Okay. I don't speak English very well. I -- my name is Elaine. I come from Campina Grande, Brazil. Teacher for theFederal Technology de Paraiba. And I have some -- have --
>> ANDREA SAKS: Go ahead. You're on. Give me your first name because I'm going to stick with that. What is your first name?
>> ELAINE ARAUJO: Elaine.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Elaine. Brilliant. Thank you, Elaine. Give me your details written down.
>> ELAINE ARAUJO: Okay.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay. And the other young lady at the end, please go ahead, identify yourself, who you work for, and why you're here. Thank you.
>> HALEY SLAFER: Hi. I'm Haley Slafer. I'm with Internews, an NGO based in Washington, D.C. We are interested in accessibility and disability issues and Internet policy and looking to learn more and -- for -- yeah.
>> ANDREA SAKS: I'm slightly hard of hearing, so what I want you to do is give me your first name good and loud, because that's how I'm going to address you. The young lady who just spoke, what's --
>> HALEY SLAFER: Haley like the Comet.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Haley like the Comet. Okay, Haley like the Comet. Everybody gets to call me Andrea, so that's fine. Next.
>> MAGDA BERHE JOHNSON: Good morning. Was that loud?
>> ANDREA SAKS: You're fabulous. I'm taking you on tour.
>> MAGDA BERHE JOHNSON: My name is Magda Berhe Johnson, and I'm with Spider, the Swedish program for ICTs in developing regions, and access is a cross-cutting issue for us, but we're currently looking into disabilities, and I'm here to learn more that I can take back to the headquarter. Thank you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you, Magda. The next lady, please.
>> PATRICIA: Good morning. My name is Patricia. I come from Kenya. Kenya is in the East African region of Africa, for those who may not know. I work for the Regulator, the Communications Converged Regulator of broadcasting, telecommunications, eCommerce on inclusiveissues. The issue of inclusive technologies is very important to me and my organization because I'm in charge of the consumer affairs division of the authority, and we're seeing how we can strengthen the safeguards, the mechanisms with respect to inclusive technologies. Thank you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you, Patricia.
>> GEORGE FERNANDEZ: Hello. Good morning. My name is George Fernandez from Portugal. I came from the Ministry of Education and Science, where we have a unit about accessibility to digital -- digital information, and I'm responsible of the session -- flash session oftomorrow, and observatory with web accessibility, so tomorrow we could also share some information about it. Thank you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you. Because we started a half an hour late, we may not have much time for you to tell us more about yourself, but we'll catch you afterwards, because we have some work to do because this committee is very, very dynamic, and we've got some stuff we've got to do for the main session.
So if we don't get an opportunity to speak -- and I'll shut up now and go to the next person -- don't worry.
>> FERNANDO BOTELHO: Hello. My name is Fernando Botelho. I'm responsible for a project we call F123 Access, which improves accessibility for persons with disabilities on the web, and we are leading a company called F123 Consulting, here looking for knowledge and partnerships.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you, Fernando.
>> FLAVIA: Hello. I'm Flavia. I work with Fernando at F123.
>> ANDREA SAKS: She's also lucky to be married to the nicest guy in town. Thank you.
Okay. The next person, please.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Hello. I'm Derrick Cogburn. I'm a professor at American University at the School of International Service, in Washington, D.C., and I'm also executive director of the Institute on Disability and Public Policy, which focuses on 20 universities in Southeast Asia, the ten countries of Southeast Asia, and we focus on accessible cyber learning and implementation of the UN Convention on therights of persons with disabilities.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Gary is also our remote moderator. I'm going to go --
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Derrick.
>> ANDREA SAKS: -- back to him in a minute. Sorry?
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Derrick.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Derrick. Sorry. God. I've been stressed out this morning with all this stuff. Sorry, Derrick.
Gunela, could you go?
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Good morning. I'm Gunela Astbrink from Internet Australia, the ISOC chapter in Australia, and I also am principal of GSA InfoComm. I've worked in the field of disability and technology for the last 25 years and in policy and research, public procurement, a number of different projects, so I'm glad to be here and participating in DCAD. Thanks.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you. And Derrick, do we have anyone on remote that -- we've defined one person, which is Geetha.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: We have Geetha, we Kristine Blake, and Vlacheslav Erokhiin, and I don't have any details in the chat room as to who they are, and I don't know why you can't keep the chat window open and the video, but Geetha, Kristine, and Vlacheslav are the three people in remote participation.
>> ANDREA SAKS: We'll try and communicate with you as best we can. Derrick will be monitoring the computer screen and will take your questions. We have a gentleman who just walked in. He is not going to escape. He has to introduce himself. Would you like to tell us who you are, sir, and then we'll start the meeting. You. You. Yes, you. Tell me who you are.
>> MOEDJIONO: Yeah. Thank you very much. My name is Moedjiono from Indonesia. Thank you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: And you represent who? Your interest, please.
>> MOEDJIONO: Civil Society.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Civil Society. Okay. Thank you very much. All right. Just want to say one thing before we get into the nitty-gritty on the agenda is that when I call on you to speak, if you have a question or anything else like that, for the captioner, please say your name. If it's an unusual name, these are English-speaking captioners, could you spell it, and that way you will be recorded correctly. So thank you very much.
And we have a young lady who's in the audience who's not sitting at the table. Please come up. You don't -- nobody sits in the table, and I'll get you to introduce yourself in one second because we've had difficulties in getting started due to technical difficulties, please, so you are?
>> TRACY WEISLER: Good morning, everyone. I'm Tracy Weisler from Washington, D.C., the U.S. Federal Communications Commission. Thank you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: And I think you might know Karen Peltz Strauss.
>> TRACY WEISLER: And I think you've heard of you.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Great. We're all on the same page. Right. We have an agenda, which I believe is up, and I have to look at it as well, and as I want to explain, the Dynamic Coalition is attempting to try and influence IGF on procedures and different mechanisms to include people with disabilities, both on premises and remotely, and we're going to be dealing with that specifically in a minute, so welcome, everybody, and what I'd like you to do, if we could scroll up the agenda -- who is in control of that? It's post -- Ah, can you see the both -- oh, okay. Is there anybody that anybody would like to add to that agenda? That's -- yes. Okay. Thank you. Fine. Because we do have people participating who do not see, I'm going to read it.
It's opening remarks and welcome, which I've done; approval of the agenda, which we are about to do.
Number 3 is the review of the DCAD activities since IGF 2014. That will be short, because they're mainly phone calls, and revision of the DCAD Accessibility Guidelines. The lead is Francesca, who is on my left. Discussion of the comments for the DCAD main session on day 3, review of the IGF registration, transport, and hotel accommodations with reference to persons with disabilities; review of the accessibility facilities at IGF 2015, review of the Internet facilities and connectivity, review of IGF 2015 remote participation; review (Portion of audio lost due to Internet disruption) the review of our activities are basically we have been working with IGF about the Dynamic Coalition representatives going and speaking to a representation allowing people to understand what it is we're doing and why, and we had to produce an output document, which we did last year, but they didn't accept it as an output document because of the fact that they didn't know thousand do that from a Dynamic Coalition, so it's been postponed, and we'll be working on that shortly because that's number 4, and so what I was going to say is that mainly what we do is we try and influence IGF to make it more accessible for persons with disabilities, not only to come here but to communicate, and so far, with the best intentions of everybody, we've never really managed to do remote participation very successfully with people who are blind, who cannot use WebEx very well, because the reason why you can't is that you have to turn off one audio stream to be able to navigate and listen to your screen reader or then come back on, and it just does not work, so we have them called in.
But it's very difficult to communicate with the right person, and we really need to do something about that, so that's happened for the fifth year that we may or may not have Gerry Ellis, who's a very outspoken gentleman, but we do have Fernando who could make comments about that if he should so wish. Fernando, I'm going to call on you. Have you ever had problems -- have you ever tried to use WebEx? Can you push the thing?
>> FERNANDO BOTELHO: I have indeed tried -- this is Fernando, -- unsuccessfully in the past. Because of time pressures, I have not tried it in the past week.
>> ANDREA SAKS: We have a comment from our remote moderator, Derrick.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: So my suggestion would be -- I don't like WebEx. I reviewed it many years ago for network computing. It has a lot of problems, it has a lot of accessibility problems. My suggestion is we not use it, we not promote WebEx. The tool we use is Collaborate. It's Blackboard. It's fully accessible for people using screen readers, people using JAWS, NVDA, an open source screen reader. We have meetings every week with people who are blind all over the world. It has integrated closed captioning capabilities, dial-in phone capabilities. I would suggest as a DCAD we could use this as an accessible tool, and not make the assertion that people who are blind can't participate, it means they can't participate in this particular tool, which is not accessible.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay. The way we're going to have to go with that -- we can't put it into the guidelines at the moment, though we might be able to get an accessible web thing because we do have a place in the guidelines, which we'll get to in a minutes. Can you remember that, Francesca, don't forget. The other thing is DCAD can communicate directly via correspondence to the Secretariat of that and make the suggestion if you can give us the information, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but the reason why we have WebEx or I'm told is that it is donated by Cisco, who is the main proprietor, and therefore, we have a distinct problem on that. We've got our captioning back. Hooray!
If we're in agreement, should we communicate -- we vote on everything.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: So I would suggest for the DCAD, I'm happy to make it available for free for the DCAD. We can use it for our own meetings throughout the year so people can get comfortable with it so that when you come to a meeting like this, it's not the first time people are trying to use it, and then even if we wanted to use it for this session, we could be using it. All I need is an Internet connection. You know, we don't have to have all of this. I can -- we could use it even though it's not the official a platform for the rest of IGF.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Hey, this is a very interesting proposition. Go ahead.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Andrea, we would also be happy to give some feedback to Cisco, because I think WebEx could be made accessible, so that is another option.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: I would be happy do it.
>> ANDREA SAKS: All right. We're going to put that in the minutes. We're going to put that in the minutes. Okay. One, Derrick is going to make it available to DCAD no matter what's going on. Two, we're going to communicate this problem again to IGF. Three, we're going to communicate directly with WebEx and Cisco, and I know just the guy to talk to for the fourth year, and tell him that they need to become accessible. Okay. So those three points. Go ahead, Gunela.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Gunela. Just on the last point, I think that that argument can be strengthened now because Cisco in the past haven't shown a huge amount of interest in accessibility, but as an example, in Australia, we now have a national disability insurance scheme, and we had a huge conference a couple of weeks ago, and the major multinational technology companies were there, including Cisco, saying we believe in accessibility, we are working on accessibility, so I think where that's an argument because the Australian government are pouring a lot of money into setting up infrastructure, so that can be a good argument to say Cisco, make WebEx accessible.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Any quotes you can give me when I finally write this up, I will be happy to include. Thank you, Gunela. The one gentleman I will be attacking nicely will be Dr. pepper because his name -- I know, I saw the American grin, because we have a soft drink called Dr. Pepper, but bob Pepper is a very personable guy, who one of the main focal points for accessibility in Cisco, and as in all things, it's a question of economics, research and development. Okay, send me the info and we'll include it in the letter. We won't be able to pass the written information to this group here, it will be done later in the year through the conference call that we're going to finally make (Audio cut out)
Great. Okay. So -- right. What I would like to do, then, at this point, is move on to number 4 because we can add that with your agreement to one of the places. Can we put up the Dynamic Coalition document, which is the second big document, please, technical people, so everybody can see that.
Hello. Thank you. Not quite up yet. Here we go.
Can -- can we raise this up, please? Okay. Stop right there. We have altered the page to read this year and the location because it has been changed. One of the things that happened was that it was put on the web and posted on the web as per our agreement to participate in the main session, the first one on the third day to submit a document or an output of the Dynamic Coalition, so we've adjusted the title page to reflect that we are in Rio, that it's this particular meeting, and carry on with the comments that were given by people and members of Society to the web on the IGF page saying what they thought. They corrected our English, which is wonderful, because I'm a dyslexic, as well as going deaf, so consequently, our wonderful scribe has added all that in, and that document was sent out to all who are members. Those who wish to become members, we'll give you the website later, and you can then be a part of this communication.
So can we move to the first page, please? That -- I'm going to turn it over to you. Okay. It's -- I'm going to turn this over to Francesca. Can you put -- can you put your mic on, please. Francesca.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Yes. So Francesca speaking. So this, as Andrea mentioned, is an output of the Dynamic Coalition onAccessibility and Disability to provide feedback guidelines to the IGF Secretariat on how to improve accessibility in IGF meetings and how to eliminate barriers.
So we developed this document, which was -- maybe Andrea, you want to say a little background of how this was developed? It was developed for Istanbul.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Right. It was finalized as in Istanbul as best as we could do it. It had been started about three years previous we had and still have from input from the members and then was crystallized in Istanbul, and as I mentioned earlier, we wanted to make it an output document, but they didn't have a mechanism because there's controversy whether or not Dynamic Coalitions can influence the main Secretariat of IGF, so, again, this is going to hopefully be what we call a living document because as we go forth, we find more things that make problems, like we didn't know we're going to have problems with carpeting until one of our good friends, Shadi Abou-Zahra, couldn't use his wheelchair. We don't have time to do severe edits at this point. We want to get this document done in Mark 1, or it's going to be Mark 2, actually, so it is accepted and work on it next year to continue to develop it and make it Mark 3. Carry on, please.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Francesca again speaking. So the document here, you have the contents, and I will read those contents very quickly. We have seven chapters. Accessibility consideration when organizing IGF meetings is number one. Be aware of attendee's needs and requirements. Choose an accessible environment for the meeting, whether it's a meeting location, venue, rooms, technical accessibility, background noise, other facilities, clear signage.
Then number 2 is provide information about the event, building and other facilities, so we have sections on venue accessibility, accommodation, and meeting dates.
Then we have a chapter on provide accessible information, meaning meeting materials, meeting presentations, videos, website, sign language, aids to listening.
And then another chapter on train and inform assistance staff, so staff and volunteer training, registration process. And finally, allow anyone to provide feedback and comments. We have a section on how to encourage feedback, which is the -- finally the Dynamic Coalition involvement.
Then we have some 1, 2, and 3, and we'll go through as we go through the document. So the document was open to consultation on the IGF website, and we received very good feedback. In particular, I can mention feedback of Michael Oghia. Thank you very much, he's a 2015 ISOCIGF ambassador, and he's from Istanbul, Turkey, and he gave us very good feedback and some comments, which we want to open to discussion today.
So if I scroll down to page 1, so here you will see the document has -- still it's in changes mode, so actually you will see all the corrections. It's still a working document, and we have left some of the comments. So I will go through some of the comments and pose questions to you, and if you have any feedback on this, that would be great and we can head to -- not much.
Okay. So -- well, we want just to mention comment
Number 1. Andrea.
>> ANDREA SAKS: We do have a problem in the sense that we --
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Ten minutes?
>> ANDREA SAKS: Yeah, I'll give you ten minutes, but that's not what I was going to say. Basically, members of DCAD did get this, so I'm not going to go into too much conversation and open the floor to who are not members of DCAD. I want basically -- unless there's something glaring that we've done incorrectly, but --
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Just a review.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Just a review at this point in time because, like I say, we wanted to expose the document with the input that people have given us to make it better, and then we've got to submit it to the Secretariat tonight as a clean copy.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Thank you, Andrea: Francesca again speaking.
Well, the first comment is -- it's a question. If this -- it's a question posed by the Dynamic Coalition on Accessibility and Disability, if this coalition addresses the point of having a trained medical emergency team on-site in case something happened.
>> ANDREA SAKS: In fact, something did, and one of our people, Judy Okite, is now in hospital, so that's been handled well. We didn't deal with medical emergencies here because there is a reference in that document that does mention that, but we're not going into a guideline about how they handle medical emergencies, we're talking about access and participation for persons with disabilities, not how the medical profession handles a situation of an accident, be it a person who has a disability or not.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: But -- Francesca speaking. I'm actually glad to report that in the program there is actually in the useful information a note about emergency, which number to call for emergency, and then also a mention a medical center and ambulance will be available in the meeting venue, and so you can read that in -- in fact, in the last page of the useful information of your guide, so this has been covered by this IGF in Joao Pessoa.
Then the second comment, it relates -- it's about be aware of attendee's needs and requirements, and one of the -- maybe I read the sentence and then I pose -- mention a comment.
This form we say will be used for planning the meeting, so -- sorry. There should be a space on the online registration form. We're talking about the online registration form, to record if a person has any access requirements or specific needs, and the registration form should be in accessible format.
And in the format -- in the form, there should be a question asking if they require a reasonable accommodation to access the event and have a process in place for responding to these requests.
So here one of the comments was more a question about reasonable accommodation versus how -- what does this mean, what does "reasonable accommodation" mean, and to the person who made this comment, we can just respond that actually this is contemplated in the convention on the right, so person with disabilities, and it's a specific -- it's an important notion in the convention, actually needs definition, and you can eventually refer to the document to read the article tool and what it says about reasonable accommodation.
>> Go ahead.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: So Francesca, my only comment would be wouldn't it -- for me it would seem like it would make sense both in the sentence right before that and then in that sentence to refer to the standard, so to refer to Article 8 or 9 --
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Article 8.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: -- in the CRPD. I think Article 8 is awareness. I think Article 9 of this UN CRPD it's a UN document, UN Treaty, and just refer to the standard rather than saying in an accessible format, which many people could interpret in different ways.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: In different ways. Yeah, I think we should put some of the resources -- Francesca here -- so -- and just very good point.
>> ANDREA SAKS: All right. Is everybody in agreement on Derrick's suggestion? Right. Okay. Can you make sure we add that in?
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Yes.
>> ANDREA SAKS: She's got it:
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: I'm writing it down.
(Laughter)
So Francesca again, speaking. So our commentator suggested that we have something specifically about transportation, in particular to and from the airport, train station, bus station in the accessible -- I'm sorry, in the registration form. I think -- you want to comment on that?
>> ANDREA SAKS: I do.
We had a rather interesting dialogue with the IGF Secretariat and the host because it was complicated because we did have people who could not use the buses. They couldn't do the stairs. Now, I can do them, but I do look ridiculous, but I can do them, but there are some people who cannot, and there was a situation where the person who had the disability was about to be charged for extra transportation, which is also a big no-no, so I think we have to put in something about "without the person with disabilities incurring any extra charges" and that we also have to do something about the -- when we get to the part about the registration form, we have to have a more specific sentence about the registration form on the ITU registration form, we have a contact, email where the person can actually discuss their specific situation with a human being, and I think that's kind of what we need to do there, and that's actually what happened. The situation was resolved, and -- but we need to be able to make that not just tick the box and wait, we have to have a contact email on that registration form, and if everybody's in agreement to that, I think we need to add that.
What do you think, Francesca?
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Yeah, I think it's very good.
>> ANDREA SAKS: So I think that's how we'll handle that comment. Please.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Gunela here. I -- as Andrea's been talking about the various aspects of the guide, you've been mentioning examples of, you know, people who've had issues, and I'm thinking it might actually be useful in the future edition to include those examples, and I'm referring, as an example, to a document from meetings and events Australia, which is the industry association in Australia for meeting -- meeting planners, and in 2012 I put together a document (Portion of audio lost due to Internet disruption) but for someone who -- if it's involved in disability doesn't understand the issues, to have an example of, you know, (Portion of audio lost due to Internet disruption)
>> ANDREA SAKS: -- as well for accessible meetings and participation, which I also sent around, so I think excellent, so you're going to be on my calls, then, and we'll get that done. Okay. Great.
(Portion of audio lost due to Internet disruption)
>> ANDREA SAKS: So we'll figure something out. Carry on.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Francesca again. And to the point of Gunela, actually, the next comment is probably an example of what happens.
So what we're seeing in our guidelines about meeting location is never use a building with stairs where there are no public lifts or elevator for access, and the commentator, the person who commented on that, said -- and I'll read what he said. It's a note to keep in mind, as I have experienced this too often in India and Turkey. Sometimes a building has an elevator, but in order to reach the elevator, I have to either go up or down a flight of stairs. Although most large hotels and conference centers feature this design flaw, smaller ones might, and that could hinder the person with disability's mobility, so that's -- to your point, so to give some examples, that's very important.
So if we move on to the following page, we do have a comment on technical accessibility. Here it's not really comment, it was more a suggestion, Andrea, and we covered that actually yesterday. Basically, we're talking about participants that have to switch back and forth from -- from an audio of the meeting to audio of the screen reader when they're navigating to the web page. It's not really a comment. I would keep this -- when you read, actually, the document, you will understand better some of these. It's more a language --
>> ANDREA SAKS: Did we add that? We put that in.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Yeah, we did put the comment, and we have, actually -- here we have included the note, so I'll just move on to -- scroll down -- one moment -- on my document and here. Okay. One second. I lost the page. Which -- can you -- Derrick, please, can you maybe give me the page number there because I can't see it. It's too far.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: 514.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: 514. Yeah. So actually, we need to go a page back. Here we have two comments about meeting materials. One comment is -- I'll read the sentence and I'll tell you what the commentator said.
So, we're talking about if documents are available on a CD or a USB flash drive in accessible format or posted on an accessible website, then a person uses a screen reader can access the documents as well as some using a refreshable display on their laptop, and the person said, could the IGF provide Braille displays and/or screen readers for anyone that does not have one? It could be an additional option on the application form. Open to comment.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Fernando, I think this is your department. Do you want to make a comment on this, please?
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Fernando.
>> FERNANDO BOTELHO: Fernando. Yes, I think in general, people who are participating in IGFs, generally, they will bring their own assistive technology; however, depending on the country, if we want to have more local participation, this might be a nice addition, a nice option to have.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Thank you, Fernando.
>> ANDREA SAKS: I think what we'll do is elaborate on that particular point and saying local participants from different disability organizations we might be able to write something in there that it would be encouraging for the hosts to encourage that we have assistive technologies available, and, again, that would tie into the registration form, and I think that what we're going to do is add that to Mark 3, and I'd like your help on the wording on that, Fernando, if that's possible. I got a yes. Thank you very much, Fernando. Okay. Got that down.
Because we're writing the third one as we go.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: So the other comment that was made was regarding meeting presentations. Make presentation accessible. Check that any presentation and paperwork produced by visiting presenters will be available in accessible format to the meeting, and the person is asking, will the speakers and presenter be briefed about relevant guidelines and practices prior to the meeting event?
Yes, I think in our meeting we try to do that, and we'll do that for our session, especially the Friday session, and overall it will be a very good practice to -- for any not only IGF but any other conference in the world to prepare presenters for accessibility. That's my personal opinion.
>> ANDREA SAKS: I don't know if anybody has -- well, I guess you wouldn't, it's just started -- to come into contact with that one. Caption First just produced a document, which is sitting at the head of the table, which says for the moderator and for each session, start by mentioning your name, and I'm -- unfortunately, I'm terribly famous with Caption First, so I'm guilty of not doing this all the time, and they know my voice, and I'm guilty, but this allows the captioner, for instance, to know who's speaking. There's a list here of how to do things, and I think there should be a guideline for moderators, for chairmen, so that they can be trained on how to guide people in the meetings to respond, and I think that that's something we ought to add as well, and I'm taking that from the ITU accessible meeting document, so we might really be merging your document, Gunela with the ITU document with this document, eventually, so I think what the point is of this, though -- this is the beginning. If we can get this as a regular part of IGF's material to go to a host and to also be practiced by IGF in the MAG as well, then we've started to make some progress.
You want to go ahead, Francesca?
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Yes. Yes, Francesca again speaking. And this -- they say tips for IGF moderators, important not only for accessibility -- I mean for person with disabilities in general, but it's actually universal for anyone who is attending because there are maybe persons who speak a different language, and so it's not clear sometimes what moderators or speakers are saying or which affiliations they are from -- or their affiliations or their names and so on and so forth.
So moving on, we're talking about here sign language, yes.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Do we have any comments from the remote participants?
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Not about this topic. There's a suggestion to add another agenda item I was going to bring up later, but not about this topic.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: Yes. I am -- Derrick, if you can help me, I am on page 5 of 14. I have a comment on sign language. So we have a paragraph about sign language, provide sign language interpretation when attendees require it in the language of the participant. It is to -- book sign language -- sorry, it's recommended to book sign language interpreters as soon as possible because there is a shortage of sign language interpreters. Do not use international sign for appropriate specific sign language, so here the comment is number 1, is there a difference between international sign language in brackets and American Sign Language, and yes, please Andrea.
>> ANDREA SAKS: I'm proposing to actually lift out wording that's in the ITU document because I come from a deaf household where we took great pains to write about sign language in great detail and just plunking that in there, which takes care of answering that question, and also, we've got to add something. You don't put a sign language interpreter in the dark because yesterday when I was in the meeting, in the main session, when all the important people were speaking, there was one sign language interpreter who was doing Brazilian sign language. She was in the dark, she wasn't on the stage, so we're going to add something about that in there today because that just happened.
And, again, it's just because they figured that maybe deaf participants would see her and sit in the front row. You can't assume, so that one we have to definitely put in there.
Are there any comments so far from any of you? Derrick, please, go ahead.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: I'm not sure what the language is you're saying you're going to pull out and plop in. I think this is an area where we have to be very careful because the World Federation for the Deaf has made some announcements about what the recommendation is, and I know the Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the Conference of State Parties all use ISL, so, you know, what I thought I heard the language was saying was not using ISL.
>> ANDREA SAKS: What we have, the paragraph that I want to take out was vetted by the World Federation and the InternationalOrganization of Hard of Hearing, and what we're going to do is also put those references in. They have seen it, they've worked with us in getting it together, and that's a very good point. Can you make a note that we reference WFD and IHOH, so we'll do that because we worked very hard on that because it's not called International Sign Language, it is called International Sign. The vocabulary is smaller, but it enables persons with different sign languages as their native sign language to be able to communicate with each other and follow a meeting to a point, and it is used in international meetings and by World Federation, but it is not used when we're doing technical work, for instance, at the ITU regarding standardization. We ask the participant to tell us what is their native sign and hire two sign language interpreters, and also goes into that.
So with your permission, we're going to pop that in. I have sent that document around to members. They have a look at it. You don't have it because you're not on my mailing list.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: (Off microphone)
>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay. So I have sent that out, so that is the sign language paragraph that we're going to lift out, pop in there, and that way it is a little clearer because when we wrote this two years ago, we weren't really as clued in as we are now, and we didn't have the World Federation, because I grew up in an oral household, not a sign language household, so I was relying on my representatives from those two organizations to help me get that wording correctly.
So with your permission, I'm going to do that because, again, we will do Mark 3, so if something's really horrendous in there, we can change it, but the real emphasis is to get the IGF to accept that they have accessibility guidelines. They can always be amended and changed because it will be a living document, and I really appreciate you putting that in there. Was that the other subject you wanted to bring up?
>> DERRICK COGBURN: No, this is totally different. I don't want to -- two other quick things for me. So one is -- and I just heard you say something about this, Andrea, is I think that it should be very clear that when the IGF engages with a host institution that these are part of the negotiations and the required contract -- contracting process that IGF or the UN goes through with the host country to try to encourage as many of these things to be done as possible, so I don't know the degree to which they can -- they have to stay as recommendations or the degree to which they can become requirements for the host country.
>> ANDREA SAKS: It's always been my experience to go softly, softly. Let's get them as recommendations at the moment. Once we get it accepted and it becomes a living document, then we get tough, but that's my view on that, but does anyone have another view on that? I know -- I can read faces, by the way, in a deaf household. Please, go ahead.
>> TRACY WEISLER: Hello, again, all. This is Tracy Weisler from the U.S. FCC, Federal Communications Commission. You know, I'm new here to the table and to these issues, but I guess my first reaction is I'm thinking ahead to a working party that I chair at the OECD, theOrganization for Economic Cooperation and Development. We will be hosting a ministerial -- actually, Mexico is the host in 2016, June, and one of the planks or pillars of our ministerial are going to be the sets of issues related to the digital economy and access, so it's hopefully part of the declaration we'll be issuing at that time. I can't imagine that the host country would not be, shall I say, presented with a list such as this in order to host such a meeting. I can't verify that without checking with the OECD itself, but I am under the impression that most major organizations today, as part of a pro forma contract for hosting an event which is international and especially in the ICT space, of course, we're -- you know, we're the poster children for what the right thing is -- I would imagine that it's just part of the contract and that there's no negotiated position on that. Thank you. Any help on that would be very clarifying.
>> ANDREA SAKS: I wouldn't assume. I even have to renegotiate everything with the ITU, and they know better. It's -- for instance, one of the resolutions that came about for the ITU was Resolution 44, which actually does say the host must pay for captioning if it's off the ITU premises. If it's in black and white, we have a better chance, but like I say, what's been my experience -- I mean now in the ITU we have captioning for a lot of our events. IGF has always been brilliant right from the minute we started doing captioning, and Markus Kummer and I were working on it. They just embraced captioning, except for yesterday, which really kind of surprised me, so there are -- there obviously -- there is no set rule. I would not like to go in to the main session and say, you must do this. I would like to say, In the spirit of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, we would appreciate all future hosts to take a look at this document, and if they have other good suggestions that will make it better, to make it better, and there will be a Mark 3 and it will be a living document. And as it gets stronger and more recognized, then it will become, I think, ridiculous if they don't do it, but if you -- if you ever put your shoe on the table and bang it like Khrushchev -- are you too old or too young for that? What were you, three? I'll takeFernando first and then Derrick.
>> FERNANDO BOTELHO: Hello. This is Fernando. I will follow your suggestion, Andrea, because you have so much more experience than I do on advocacy, but I think maybe one -- you know, my own suggestion would be that we have maybe two levels of recommendations, one that would be a requirement and one that will be a suggestion or a recommendation, and it may be on a subsequent edition of this document, just because I think, you know, yes, having a second sign language interpreter that is fluent on the international sign or having an available, accessible computer for a local blind person that might join the meeting, yes, those are -- you know, maybe they can be considered as optional, but having access to a wheelchair user on the main session or having just, you know, an -- a sign language interpreter on the local language, there are certain things that I think we should consider as basic and essential and requirements, just my two cents. Thanks.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Your wish is my command. I'm going to get out there and say that. That's excellent, because I have to figure out what we're going to say at the main session, and that's a very good point, and I think what you've said is eloquent enough and I'll steal it, if I may, and say it in that way because I used to bang my shoe. It did get me as far as I got, and then I began being a little bit kinder and giving me socks, so I'm going to -- okay. So we will mention basics, but it -- by the way, all interpreters come in pairs, whether they're oral or whether they're -- they all have to come in pairs. You can't just have one of one and one of another language, so that's just normal in the UN system, and I think we can mention the -- in the spirit of the UN Convention, and those of you who signed and ratified really must take a look at the guideline and implement these because you did sign that agreement, which is binding.
So Derrick.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: Exactly. Just to add to that, so part of the point that I was making is -- so we've got 160 countries that have signed and 159, I think, that have ratified. It's quite likely that the host, whatever the next host country is or subsequent host countries have signed and ratified the convention, which have committed themselves to this, so I know that ICANN -- I don't know the details of this, but I know every host country there's a negotiation and a contract process, and there are certain things required in order for the host an ICANN meeting, and there should be, I would assume, certain requirements for a country to host an IGF, and it should be a contractual arrangement or whatever the international agreement is that allows a country to host an IGF, so there are things that are already built in as requirements, I'm assuming, and an ICANN conference I think has very specific Internet access requirements and you have to have an open, free access to the -- so there are requirements that are built into it, and I think that's where these requirements should go into the negotiation in in the contracting phase from IGF, you know, whichever elements -- I agree with our colleague -- whichever elements we see are the basic requirements should go into that contract.
>> ANDREA SAKS: May I make a suggestion here. I agree with that. I actually agree with that, I actually do in principle, I'm 100% behind that but in reality I have a situation which I'll give you. Question 26 is the accessibility question IPTV Multimedia. They're all going to meet with IPTV in Japan, and I've got the chairman saying, well, he doesn't really think Question 26 should come because he doesn't want to pay for sign language. Now, I'm about ready to bite him, but I can't force the Japanese to do that, so there is a problem in the fact that if you make a requirement, you might lose a host or you might get restrictions, so it is tricky.
Why don't we say a sentence that said, all host agreements must provide accessibility -- what is the word I want? It's equivalent -- accessibilities and/or equivalent access for persons with disabilities in -- I'll find the wording -- in the meeting -- in the meeting arrangements, both for interpretation access and ICTs. That's as close as I can get right now.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: (Off microphone)
>> ANDREA SAKS: I love it: In line with that country's commitment to -- I'm saying this out loud -- to the UN CRIPD. Okay.
>> DERRICK COGBURN: It's quite possible some countries may have reservations or assumptions or understandings about the convention, so you couldn't sort of require them to go further than they've made in that international treaty, but I think you could certainly request that they live up to the commitments they've made to the treaty and the instance that they've ratified it.
>> ANDREA SAKS: I think that's an excellent thing, and I've written it down, so we can put that at the end. Go ahead.
>> FRANCESCA CESI BIANCHI: If we also get the transcripts, it would be helpful also to --
>> ANDREA SAKS: I can -- yeah, I can get that from Caption First. I said, I think that's no problem. I can get them from Caption First.
Gunela had her hand up, and I haven't forgotten her. Go ahead.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Gunela here. I totally agree with Derrick and others in regard to more of a push for future IGFs to have an accessibility, and I'm thinking from a point of view of, you know, we're talking about requirements and desirables, and in ITU language we've got must ensure, and we've got must ensure as standard language, and maybe we can go through this current document and see, okay, these are musts, and obviously to have a physically accessible venue and toilets and captioning, they are just absolute musts, and then there are others which Fernando mentioned would be desirable, and so a couple of things.
One of them is once you have presented this document as a document from DCAD, then it's more or less a little bit more official, and then that can be a good basis for stating to the IGF organizers for the next meeting to specify these are the musts, and those musts might be summarized at the top of the document so that -- because it's quite a long document now, and so if you just specify those absolute requirements, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do the others, but it's just highlighting them, so then that can -- can be easily worked with, hopefully.
>> ANDREA SAKS: Gunela I'm going to put that into Mark 3, and the reason why is I have 15 minutes. I want to pass this document. We actually have 10.
I've got 15 minutes to speak to rewrite -- we need to rewrite this document. No, no, no, you're fine. I'm just saying what the position is in reality. I take -- that is absolutely correct, but you've got to be careful at this particular -- what is acceptable or absolutely required for one disability may not be viewed as one that isn't required by another person, so you can't really cherry pick. You can't at this stage. The thing is I think for us to try and do that within two days, we don't have another meeting to reratify this.