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2015 11 10 WS 29 Digital economy, jobs and multistakeholder practices Workshop Room 9 FINISHED

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Tenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in João Pessoa, Brazil, from 10 to 13 November 2015. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 


>> MODERATOR:  Okay.  I think we can get started.  Good morning to everybody and welcome to everybody.  I will be chairing this workshop.  The name of this workshop is digital economy, jobs and multistakeholder practices.  I think this is probably one of the most important workshop at IGF this year.  Because it's talking about jobs, and jobs is something that is an important issue, government want solution to the unemployment.  Youth are looking for jobs.  And I think the digital technology can offer opportunities to that.  But we also know that historically all generation have to sustain at least in the beginning some negative impact on the labor market.  So we have to better understand what's happening and how we can use digital technology to fully exploit this potential to create new jobs and new opportunities. 

I think this is similarly important, that we, last year in Istanbul, we promoted a workshop on Internet jobs, creative destruction and as a matter of fact that we had already some of the panelists that are here today were also in the other workshop so it's nice because we can maybe see what we have learned in this year.  But I think it's important that the business community to take leadership.  Because I think the business community can play an important role in finding solution to these issues. 

What I would like to do before presenting the panel, is to give three bullets, three suggestion for the debate.  The first issue that I like to mention is that we, to some extent, we have learned there is a broad consensus in the academia, in the research community, in the industry to some extent too, that this phenomenon or job displacement is temporary.  In other words, the effect of displacement of digital technology will be completely resolved in the long run.  There is a studies that OCD has done to address the decision and we have someone here who will mention also that. 

The second issue is we talk a lot about ICT and skills.  Our skills, our digital technology require new skills that we fit the demand for new jobs.  I think this is important, skills are important, but we have also to understand that there are ‑‑ that, for instance, can create particular opportunities.  There was a recent study by the McKinsey Global Institute, there was an article in the New York Times like November 6th, transform jobs.  Because to some extent we allow also to give more opportunity for more creative type of jobs.  We'll reduce the time, the amount of time work spent in routine jobs.  Probably you cannot believe that, but apparently only 4% over the total amount of hours is spent in the U.S. in jobs is creating jobs.  It's an interesting issue. 

The third issue is why we say that this new division of technology are big opportunity for job creation.  Well, if you think so far we have experience probably only a smaller part of the digital revolution.  Why is that?  Basically we have all experienced the way in which digital technology changed the way in which we interact, we communicate.  But probably the bounty, the beauty of this technology is still to come.  Why is that?  Because contrary to other innovation, digital technology is not always big and new.  But as what some scientists call communitorial effect.  We are not looking for a major breakthrough.  The biggest innovations which are technology are coming up from a combination of existing innovation.  Think about even, think about the Internet.  The Internet was a combination of networks.  The Worldwide Web, and the TCP/IP.  So they were all existing model already.  So think about, for instance, this application for real‑time traffic update, Waze, was based on Samsung, iPhone, GPS social network.  If this is the case, if the innovation, digital technology innovation is communitorial, there is no limit.  It's like a label, it's only a matter of our creativity to put together and innovate. 

So having said that, now we will move to the panel.  I would like to present the speakers.  We have a great group of speakers.  And we have ‑‑ we have Alex, chief solution architect ‑‑ we have a chief executive officer from Asia.  Then Natalia will join us via web remotely, specialist at the World Bank.  We have Bill general researcher at the research institute; Michael, Ricardo, consultant to the CRC, Jeanpaul president European Broadcasting Union, and Verena, economist.  I think the panel is we have finish so far. 

So what I would like to do is to break this panel into two parts, basically, discussion.  The first part will be we will try to address the issue of our digital economy impacting jobs, and the second part ‑‑ the effort from civil society, government, connecting, creating job opportunities. 

I would like to start each speaker is about five minutes in the first part and then we move to the second part.  I would ask that we start with Verena Weber because she has done work and she can help in setting the stage. 

>> VERINA WEBER:  Thank you very much, Lorenzo.  It's a pleasure to be here participating in this workshop.  Thank you also to our Brazilian hosts.  They did a marvelous job in setting this up. 

What I would like to do in my speech is to talk a bit about the work we're doing on skills and jobs and the effects of ICTs on job creation.  And I would like to raise three issues from our point of view are very important and that need to be addressed.  So from an OECD perspective, we see that there is an increasing concern that the huge wave of automation has led to job losses, has led to a high unemployment and inequality, and will continue do so.  And there are some experts that say okay, compared to implications we had from other technological revolutions, this one will be more so than what we saw in the past.  On the other hand, Lorenzo had already mentioned it, most of our papers convey the main message so that ICT's digital economy has a huge potential for further increasing productivity and incomes across countries.  So we see that ICTs are transforming sectors and huge new opportunities are opening up.  If you think of the Internet of things, if you are thinking about the convergence of ICTs with other sectors of the economy, think about health, think about energy, et cetera. 

Another example that I would like to raise is we see an increasing number of Internet job platforms that basically allow a better match of demand and supply, but that also create entirely new work arrangements.  This is shifting to a model which is much more flexible, much more on demand, and you have much more rich workers.  So I guess the $1 million question is okay, what is the net effect?  Is it a negative scenario, what is the bottom line?  Do we win jobs or do we lose jobs? 

So we have been conducting several studies on this, and one reason why we're doing this is we're having a meeting coming up next June, the 22nd and 23rd of June, and one of the four key issues we're going to discuss is job and skills in the economy.  While we unfortunately don't have a crystal ball, so I cannot tell you how it will look like in ten years, we have a track record of over 20 years of assessing the impact of increasing ISD adoption on employment.  What we see is indeed ICTs may have negative effects on employment, but this is the important part of the sentence, but these disappear over time.  So, and we also see that in this period where we might see negative effects of ICTs, the people that are affected most are the medium‑skilled people.  Not a lower‑skilled, not high‑skilled, the medium‑skilled. 

So overall ‑‑ the overall outcome that we expect is positive.  But it will be only positive if we have a sound policy framework.  And here I would like to put forward a few topics for discussion that other panelists might want to comment later on.  We saw that ICT investments lead to higher productivity which lead to growth, higher demand and higher level of employment.  So the question is how can we increase ICT investments?  Because the bad news is the levels of ICT investment at this stage is historically low.  We are below the levels before the global financial crisis and the European financial crisis, and this is a problem we haven't solved.  So a key question is how can we how increase investment, especially in higher growth sectors.  The second one, how can we form labor regulations.  How can we promote social dialogues for new forms of working.  So if you're thinking about Internet job platforms, while see we have a better match, on the other hand we see that people have a lower level of security.  There are open questions social security.  So most of the people that are offering their jobs on these platforms are not covered while in terms of social security and the insecurity is much higher.  So this is a question we have to address, besides the fact we need to figure out how we can deal with taxation. 

And finally the third question is how being we accompany people along the transition.  So that means we will have some people who will probably lose their jobs and what kind of policies do we need.  So we need public employment services, we need training schemes and the potential for more creative jobs, so we need to come up with more incentives for start‑up, so to ensure the transaction is going smoothly.  Thank you very much. 

>> MODERATOR:  Okay.  I would like to give the floor now to Helani Galpaya. 

>> HELANI GALPAYA:  Thank you. 

I work for a think tank that does research predominantly on poor people in south Asia and southeast Asia.  And our focus ‑‑ we've got a project looking for potential for online platforms and micro work and how do we increase or how do we get people who are underemployed.  Not just under employed, women on these platforms.  This is clearly a phenomena that has been able to buy the digital economy and increase the availability of broadband and connectivity.  These markets would not exist without broad band and Internet connectivity.  Even the type of unreliable expensive connectivity in some parts of the world. 

In Sri Lanka and India, we see there are different ways to break down tasks and different platforms have emerged, depending on the size of the job and the skill level.  At the very low end you find things like Fiver, and at slightly higher end you have things like Elancer, which requires some software development skill.  But given the importance of the ICT sectors in south Asia, particularly Sri Lanka and India for example, where they are contributing to the GDP providing employment, you would think that these platforms would also have very high participation of south Asians.  In fact, there isn't.  The incidence of finding people actively engaged and making money is not as high end as you would think given the skill level.  Part of this has to do with awareness and not a lot of awareness around the possibilities of this.  You need sort of two types, three types of skill, right?  Three things.  You need a connection, you need awareness, you need language, and most of the time this is English.  And you need some kind of skill.  And that skill can be highly specialized to write software, or at the slightly lower end it can be to do some graphic design, global design for companies.  And at the lowest end it could be just writing English sentences, what you hear being transcribed.  Somewhere in between is this phenomena of writing reviews for various products which have caused huge controversy, because there are fake reviews, but anyway.  But also there is the ability to play the game on these platforms.  You can't just go register, but you actually to get your first job is a real fundamental hurdle.  So what you find with the successful people who make money on these platforms is they actually get a job from one of their friends.  Because you need to do a job and get positive reviews in order for somebody who doesn't know you to look at you and say okay, I'll give you this job.  And that takes skill and awareness and that sort of has network effects.  So these are problems why it doesn't scale. 

The other problem why it doesn't scale is you have problems about how to get paid.  We have entrepreneurs in Myanmar who are doing this type of work but can't get paid because of restrictions, so they are using a friend's bank account.  Sri Lanka doesn't have PayPal.  So there are real barriers if we are thinking about scaling this.  But we are looking at this as a market with significant potential for underemployed and unemployed. 

The second part of this micro work, sort of platform‑mediated work, which has the potential to really create inclusive jobs, not just for the elite who already have the high‑end computer science degrees, they'll get jobs in our countries anyway.  These are more like the people who have a two‑year diploma in some kind of ICT that I'm talking about.  That's what's going to make this job creation thing inclusive.

The second model we see is rural outsourcing.  Community‑based organization or a third‑party organization that has civic objectives is taking on a large contract from a foreign company and hiring a location, training them.  That is the way they get across this barrier of trust because people are afraid to give out a contract to parties they don't know.

>> Natalia? 

>> Hello.  Can you hear me?  Can you hear me well? 

I'm grateful to be here.  Good morning. 

The topic is we consider very important.  The world bank works in a very difficult environment.  We are here talking about things that are most relevant and why it is so. 

You know the environment in the developing countries is difficult why?  We have very high level of unemployment there.  There are many, many groups excluded entirely they are not working.  They do not have skills and most importantly there is no infrastructure place for that, no financial, no digital, anything.  But still you know all of the Internet instrumentals, I'm sure it's known there are world developments report this year of the World Bank is mitigated for Internet for development.  It is a big acknowledgment for technology because it is an emerging recognition among the financing institutions, the developing financing institutions of the World Bank is that Internet is a power for development.  It's a power for job creation, it's a power to address business development.  There are many, many, many important conclusions that are coming out of there.  But and as mentioned and summarized very well has to be done even in developing countries.  In developing countries we are starting very much from the developing of the infrastructure.  With all the digital infrastructure there cannot be any digital economy.  Apparently it's very, very weak.  Whether you start from the cables, whether you start from the frameworks.  We have to look at all the sides in enabling the digital economy. 

And I'm happy to tell you that more and more operations, financial support are given to the government specifically to address the connectivity.  Not on the backbones but also on the access network so costly.  So it allows us to observe understanding among governments that they're facing many different problems is emerging about the opportunities of this technology can bring.  And the developing countries, the other characteristic of them is those are usually very young countries and there's a lot of youth there.  So they are very much technology savvy.  So this power can be used to bring this youth into the labor market. 

So as we are planning our operations in the countries, we do usually look at three things.  First of all, how we can support the spread up of the infrastructure outside the city so that we can bring the inclusion aspects of what technology can a local rural population.  We talk about the importance of skills.  The skills that allowed to bring the masses over the digital infrastructure and allow them get some earnings, right?  Be it whatever tasks that are available there. 

And then we talk about the digital businesses.  We talk about the existing businesses that can export because technology allows.  And we talk about the new startup that is created.  This allows to create not only to grow the business, but to create a higher good and sustainable job.  So this five, six years ago was not in the agenda of developing banks.  Now we can say it's starting to be. 

So thank you very much for inviting me.  We think it's a big step ahead and I'm sure we will see in the future more and more very good projects that will allow development of digital economies across the development world.

>> MODERATOR:  Thanks.  Now we would like to go to Ricardo so we can close the perspective and we move to Europe and Korea. 

>> Thank you.  Let me just bring to the table Latin‑American perspective by sharing with you ‑‑ focusing on digital agenda for 2018.  On that exercise they realize others colleagues, panelists that even if the Latin American economies have in the past few years any significant increase in connectivity.

And it didn't happen because that connectivity was a consumption of social apps.

Instead of bringing new opportunities, how to transform the local business. 

The second finding for 2018 was to recognize a short in some way to understand what are the available tools that some local companies, governments put in place through government solutions.  But also skills to develop new solutions that address the local needs.  And that's another important I want to emphasize.

From the perspective of developing countries, there's more that I will say, even micro business that are no more than five to ten people. 

How we can help to transform this micro small companies and how to help them to still connectivity is an issue.  There's a lot of people that need to be connected.  But we need to also ‑‑ we need to develop applications and content that express the local communities.  And one of the main local needs in our countries is to reduce poverty. 

>> MODERATOR:  From Europe.

>> Yes, thank you.  We talk about content and economic stream, not about technique and infrastructure.  To introduce my quote, let me give you share with you some conclusion from study published last year in December the creative and cultural industry in Europe, that means more than 5 billion Euro each year.  That means 4.2% of the GDP.  It's one of the fast‑growing sector during the last three years.  And in terms of job, that means 7 million job.  3.3% of population to compare with the ultimate manufacturer, it's 2.5 more.  That's our business of creativity, the business of content producing in Europe.  We have a lot of studies in Canada and the drive seems to be in Australia and UK also and they conclude that when we invest in broadcast 1 million, the economy receive 2.1 more that they invested.  So creative industry in Europe all around the world drive but not only by broadcast promote.  It's based on a cycle.  It's an old one, we produce contents, we are creative, we collect revenues, revenues come in from advertising, from public firm, from subscription, we make profit.  And we invest this profit in creativity in content and local infrastructure.  That was the world before the digital revolution.  What happened? 

Digital revolution is in Europe ‑‑ we change our process, our work flow, engage more and more young people, we reshape our structure, we discover the richness of network, of cocreation, of start‑ups.  Creative industry in Europe is two characteristic.  It's the youngest industry in Europe.  They make job for young people and the other end it's a sector which drive more companies of the creative companies in Europe are employed less than three people.  At the same time, this cycle creates and produce content, make profit and invest such profit.  Part of the economy moved from the local market to the digital one.  And the digital market.  Collect taxes.  We invite producers to invest locally or original content and in new infrastructure.  And which protects the market as collapse completely.  I will conclude and give you an example.  It's 1.7 million Euro a year.  Google paid last year 5 million tax.  And Facebook less than 1 million.  This is no dimension for the creativity industry in Europe.  All we can reshape a fair level playing field to guarantee that the cycle became more and more in the digital world. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much. 

>> I would like to express thanks to host country.  Today I would like to add an example of Korea for the discussion and the Internet and security agencies.  The ministry ‑‑ and said we basically setting up policies and developing framework for Internet promotion and cyber security protection.  Today I would like to share our experience with broadband and highlighting efforts and how it is related to creative job.  The reason I want to talk about is just like a race in the industry, I think as core infrastructure for the economy, empower our society by bringing more transparency in the administration and improving productivity ‑‑ government development index. 

Programs are open to new Internet industries and creating jobs in Korea.  Just giving you some figures.  In Korea, it is estimated 350,000 jobs created from 2005 to 2012.  During this eight‑year period, the number of jobs created broad band was just 2700.  237,000 jobs created a huge influence across sectors. 

What government broadband has risky and costly nature as infrastructure.  So the government should be the game.  The government launch the ministry with the master plan policies which also allow the private sector provide services. 

So in conclusion, I think the Korean government led the main groundwork ‑‑ and especially policy perspective.  So as a result we are joined broadband Internet but also address another challenge such as cyber text and my organization is working with the government to incorporate new challenges.  So let me close here now.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thanks. 

>> Thank you for the invitation and to the hosts for this event.  One of the challenges toward the end is crossing out things that other speakers have been saying.  The goal of the Internet society should be for everyone everywhere with great potential for not just participation in the job market in the ways that have been discussed so I'll spend a little time building on what's been mentioned up until now. 

First of all of course we see this great potential for education and these job platform for people to get access to jobs they might not otherwise.  But there's also some innovative solutions to some of the challenges that have been mentioned here.  The first job is often difficult to get. 

People quit their job, get trained get credentials and then their income goes up by about 10 times so that they go on to these freelance sites, their income has gone up. 

So it's really innovative ways to help people take advantage of these jobs and opportunities.  And not just for jobs, but also for entrepreneurs to create companies to create their own jobs.  You can do fundraising online, you can sell your output online.  Of course in the financial countries not everywhere you can use kick starter but where you can you can raise money, create a service and sell it online.  One of the interesting things is that some of these entrepreneurs are creating platforms for others to get jobs and they're also creating local content that makes the Internet more interesting.  So we see a real benefit to promoting entrepreneurship not just for jobs but also content that might not otherwise be created and help bring more people online and make the Internet more interesting for neighbors, friends and other countries. 

So for us the priorities that have been discussed, there's a place to host them that's locally available that helps build up hosting infrastructure.  Of course training and other things have been discussed and are necessary to help people get going, get online and what to do once they're online.  And all of these things that have been discussed here really for us to help deliver vision in the Internet for everyone and bring benefits universally.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Now.  The workshop we are the guests so we have to speak as the last one.  Okay.  Thanks.  So. 

>> First of all, good morning.  Ladies and gentlemen, it's a pleasure to be here.  Families and world services, I would like to express our gratitude for you inviting us and to have the opportunity to stay with distinguished colleagues.  For those who doesn't know about Amazon web services, we are one of the Amazon areas focusing on large computing services.  Basically now we have more than 1 million customers available to customers.  And I work in the public sector area that we have about 2,000 government agencies, 5,000 educational institutions, and 17,500 non‑profit organizations. 

What you have seen on those customers is a lot of good things.  One, there are two things that I like to share with you.  The first is about skills, but I like to get a perspective of skills.  Multidisciplinary skills.  I have an example here in Brazil in the hospitality business is hospital in Brazil and they have an area in genoma.  They have people from mathematics, people from intuitions as well and computer engineers, everybody works together.  What happened there is now they are working how to find cure of the new disease and demand is getting higher and higher because all those people have brought together and shared this knowledge and shared skills between those.  One of options to have much more.  More and more what is required is how can they combine different knowledge in order to achieve a single goal. 

A second pattern to explore is a start‑up, before maybe 15 years ago everybody want to work in a big company, but what you have seen now is more and more have start‑ups.  In these start‑ups we have tons of examples that start‑ups require jobs, one of them is like airbnb is a company that works renting a house that you can visit if you want to go to Europe or if you want to go to Brazil, you can be in touch with these guys and find a place to stay there.  It's amazing because now they are doing business without hotels are better, without assets.  But they are mainly more acknowledge skill great different people.  If we think about the numbers it's quite impressive.  And now they have available around about 1,005,000 listings in their catalog.  They have presence in 34,000 different cities and they implemented a business case that has never been tested before.  When they start up, when they the founder found this company, they had no idea if it works or not.  So that's the reason that you understand to reduce the risks, to engage people, to engage new people, to create the jobs, to follow their dreams is the way to believe. 

So in that case it's the examples I'd like to show you and now I'll hand over the word to the next presenter and more later I talk more about those case. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Before moving to part 2, we should address we have a lot of suggestion here I would like to know if there is some question from the floor on the first part of the workshop. 

>> My name is Steve ‑‑ the question is I have is the new jobs that are being created by this technology is also making many of these jobs temporary.  You have temporary workers in south Korea, 50% of the workers are temporary.  These workers do not have the same benefits and conditions that permanent workers have and you have an effect of large workers that don't have the stability.  That threatens the sustainability of the economy.  The real economy for working people and also technologies like Uber disrupted the economy and threaten drivers, other workers who need stability in their jobs.  So the question of deregulation and stability are connected and I think that needs to be addressed because it's affecting workers throughout the world.  Thank you. 

>> Good morning.  My name is Stephan.  One question I have is with regard to who creates the most jobs?  I mean there's a whole debate about is it start‑ups, is it new companies, is it large companies?  So what do we know about entry, who creates new jobs and what's the role of technology enabling those businesses to grow.

>> MODERATOR:  Okay. 

>> Hello everyone.  My name is Fernando, we make resources available accessible to the blind. 

So we most work or freelance work or Internet‑based employment opportunities can be amazing opportunities for persons with disabilities.  I would be curious to know if any of your organizations represented here have considered or wish to have projects where the inclusion of persons with disabilities is taken into consideration.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Last question. 

>> Thank you very much. 

I just wanted to get a view, in terms of jobs again as to whether are there any models which we can share about where the private sector in particular have made ‑‑ to a point where the jobs that young people get are sustainable.  In other words they grow them and enter bigger markets and become service players.  The challenge in developing countries is that even where people serve in internships, they don't think beyond giving them an opportunity.  They are enterprise development similar to embrace them to the point where they begin to enter the very chain.  And so it leaves not having immediate results.  You keep hearing entry points and not hear much about scaling up and growing within the system.  Thank you. 


>> I can take the question on who is creating jobs.  We had a study where we looked at two things.  One the size of the company and second gauge of the company.  And what we actually found was we looked at this during the economic crisis where we saw, you know, a lot of people losing their jobs.  So basically what we saw is that the young companies, the start‑up and the young companies are already the job drivers.  Whereas the older companies where we saw the level of destruction was the higher than the level of job creation. 

>> MODERATOR:  Temporary jobs.

>> We have seen people who own the company and five other people who form other companies not to create jobs.  And what you have also is how to create a new agenda to help people, not think about there is a different perspective to see things.  It's not about temporary.  It's about how to find the thing that you can get much later. 

>> I just wanted to respond to who created the more jobs.  I just wanted to ‑‑ I think the venture companies create the most jobs.  The government focus.

>> On the question about the disabilities, that's an excellent point when we talk about potential for inclusion, it's not just people who form ‑‑ well, everyone was formally in the job market, everyone has access to more opportunities than they might have before and I just say there will be a panel tomorrow morning at 9:00, workshop 32 in room 10.  Persons with disabilities.  So that would be an excellent panel that would hopefully address that issue. 

>> I'm a bit confused when people refer to sustainable jobs, what exactly does that mean?  The question is are they able to move from the $5 job to the $100 job, which requires more skill and maybe thousands, $2,000 job.  That's a real question we have answered because sort of anecdotal seeing the same level.  What we also see is very highly skilled people while fully employed moving down a lifestyle choice down these platforms.  That is a choice they're making. 

>> MODERATOR:  Now I would suggest we try to focus on these issues.  Think about for instance skills.  You can do, you know the local ‑‑ what it means ‑‑ let's start with Verena. 

>> Also it's not ‑‑ we need more and more skills for everyone.  So just one tell us we have coming up. 

>> The example I touched upon initially.  It really was a private sector, government and organizations.  The contract went from the largest private sector companies into a village which was subsidized by government.  And the society organization that was based doing prominent teacher they train these kids on computer usage so the skill training came from them and the contract came society organization.

>> MODERATOR:  Natalia? 

>> Let me give you a very specific example.  We are building a big skills program and to build a skill program is not using any ‑‑ efforts from the country.  To address issue nationally very, very important.  This is allows you to have a skill.  The scale is very important.  So I want all working together in cooperation with a government and government know what it is.  So we need to identify the sector and the skill that we want to reach.  In this regard.  And other thing is very important is for government to understand [indiscernible].

>> MODERATOR:  Okay.  Thanks.  Ricardo, Pedrosa? 

>> Thank you, Lorenzo.  Again, from the Latin American perspective what I really have seen is that governments are increasing ‑‑ are becoming more open in their decision‑making processes and mechanisms that they're trying to use is to open consultation to the different stakeholder before setting the public policy.  And the other frequently more and more used is the public and private partnerships.  There has been a key component to try to address the skill shortage.  Or to increase the development of infrastructure.  That's one of the ways that the multistakeholder mechanism have been facilitating the process. 

And I would also like to mention that maybe in another scene the multinational companies established in the region has set out also some kind of labor standards when we talk about flexibility, in terms of work from home.  And that has been like recognized as a great place to work.  So that kind of example from the private sector helps develop some new mechanism of embracing different kind of new jobs.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  So for the broadcaster perspective, first of all, we expect that we ask a set of rules which we apply for all the actors in our sector, in terms of taxation, intellectual properties and respect of privacy and that protection low. 

Secondly, to create job and help our industry to move in this digital world, as you mentioned, we need and we support more public‑private collaboration cluster policy, to break silos and we can get people working in different kind of areas and support young world start‑up and new initiative and connect them to all broadcast companies. 

And finally in terms of change in the broadcast world, we need more training programs and education priorities.  And from our part of the challenge we are convinced that we have to invest more, to bring all people together and apply inclusive editorial policy to train, learn and invite everybody to join this digital new areas. 

In that way, and behind all this policy, there is social contract in the digital world.  And we have to look, if we want to reinvent the way in which we drive the economy in the 19th century with rich countries to the north and poor one to the south, with a strong employment contract to the north and very poor in the south, or if we want to share the growth in the virtual circle of this digital economy, for that reason we need multistakeholder platform like IGF wherever stakeholder could share their fields but also opportunities and together invent this global way to drive the web. 

>> MODERATOR:  Okay.  Thank you very much. 

>> I think government can develop policies to stimulate SMA's and ventures and start‑ups.  I think it's easy to start business based on ICT and there was ‑‑ and it is expected, ICT area requires more work force in coming years.  So government can help them as start‑ups or venture companies such as the loading market barriers or financial aid, we can give some papers to them.  And I think ‑‑ and also, another point is education is really important in terms of ICT.  Because the education you got when you get in university can sometimes be obsolete.  Because ICTs tend to fast so government can implement the policies, like university policy for life‑long education.  Those two things I want to say.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Now, Michael? 

>> Thank you.  So I think in general as we move from worrying about infrastructure up to usage and how the Internet is used in countries that are starting to come increasingly online, we're going to need more and more multistakeholder solutions and not just different stakeholders in the economy, but across ministries and companies that have to enter into these discussions.  I'll build on my earlier example, entrepreneurs and the impact of challenges with financial and payment flows.  So if you think about it for entrepreneurs, apps, mobile apps are a great and almost frictionless market.  You write an app, you upload it one and the app store takes care of everything else, distribution, storage, sales, payments, everything.  So that's a really good market and it's potentially huge.  There's 1.4 billion android users alone and of course there's iPhone and the other platforms as well.  But the opportunity isn't really evenly distributed.  So I'll just use Google Play which is the Android app store because they make the data available.  If you look at the availability in sub‑Saharan Africa, in only 50% of the countries can you buy apps.  In other of the countries you may be able to download free ones, but you can't buy them.  So the market is already cut down quite a bit by that.  But even worse in only one country Nigeria can a developer register and upload an app for sale anywhere in the world.  So the opportunity to make money directly off of apps is limited only to those in Nigeria.  There's also these significant financial barriers to payments in taxes, compliance in other areas. 

So the short‑run solutions are kind of just Band‑Aids you get someone in your family to register for you in the U.S. and hopefully send you the money.  Or there's some cooperatives that are being formed like in Kenya, they will create the apps in the U.S. and send the money back in larger chunks.  Ultimately everyone has to get together and find a solution to this so the opportunities are available to everyone to be able to take advantage of this incredible marketplace that is represented just by the apps themselves which is tens and tens of billions of dollars right now.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Alex? 

>> So in my last example, I would like to explore how to develop skills and I use example based on one case here in Brazil where we have integration between the public sector and the private sector as well.  We have a company develop a platform and in order to develop students, with low wage revenue.  What I mean students there instead of going to the space in a manual way, they use virtual environment to create multimedia, and in that content they can show not only to the teachers but also to the families, also the friends, and they're literally raise the bar in terms of content.  What we've seen is terms in integration between the public and the private that later create a work force that will be much more engaged.  You are sea not talking about some solution, we are talking about some solution here locally.  So we truly believe that those solutions, those integration between public and private sector is a wonderful way to fix the new challenge in our century.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  Questions from the floor? 

We have about 7 minutes left.  Do we have any questions from the floor or from remote participants? 

>> AUDIENCE:Good afternoon.  I'm from Thailand.  Based on the panelists, the fundamentals, the assumptions about the education systems.  If you think you would like to go digital economy is I think the education system on this country quote totally different.  It's not only the creation job, it's might be other issues, for example.  To go for example like government of Korea, to think about the policy the public program to make sure they create a job that need to go achieve on digital economy.  The second ones, when you're talking about multistakeholders to go on digital economy, I'm just thinking about in the individuals, it's not only the private partnership programs.  It might be the individual, it might be to raise the voice.  Think about the digital contents, how the individuals in the country be able to have the pet farm, rather than just to organization, put money into investment, just train the people.  It's a passive activity.  So I try to think about what is the multistakeholder approach.

>> For several years we're we've been talking about this problem of inward payments, micro payments.  Example being pay pal which is possible in India but not in a number of other countries that I work in.  So for the last five years I've been beating up on governments.  But now I find when the governments are interested, the companies are not interested in facilitating out payments into some small economies.  So I think that would be an interesting issue in a multistakeholder setting.  To look at some of the micro payment providers and see why is it that they are not interested in some of the smaller economies and is there something we can do to encourage and incentivize them.  It's not just the form of the governments as we have been saying all these years. 

>> AUDIENCE:  My name is Cozmi from San Francisco.  And one of the panelists mentioned about airbnb.  San Francisco is full of airbnb.  The problem with that and Uber, the problem with those new tech industry is unregulated.  Taxi industry is regulated.  Taxi company and drivers have to follow the regulation.  Uber drivers don't have to.  Airbnb, hotel industry has strong regulations.  Airbnb, anybody works at regular company, just to get units buy unit and to rent it out as an airbnb no regulations.  The question here with new tech industry with no regulations, how are we going to regulate? 

>> I totally agree, I think it's hard to get the answer when you start asking why can't the papers work across countries and it really I think will need a multistakeholder approach to get everyone in line and I think what we'll need to work on it's going to take some time but good to hear that you've had much more experience at this and it's still a challenge. 

With respect to Uber, I think what's really fascinating about that, I come from a telecom background, we talked about convergence and what happened when these online services collide, now movies with TV and all of that and now it's happening in things that I think few of us could have predicted five years ago that the biggest taxi company so to speak wouldn't own any taxis, for instance.  And I think that the solution, as with convergence, is to separate the economic regulations.  That is, the regulations that are just existing to protect and keep out competition from the regulations that protect consumers.  So, you know, in that case you might not have a limit on the number of taxis that represents medallion, but you might want some certain training levels for the drivers, for instance.  So you have to separate, just as in telephony, what were the competition regulations and what were the consumer protection regulations.  And I think there's going to be a transition.  I wouldn't condone it, but the taxi drivers in Paris got very upset and one reason is they spent 1 hundred thousand Euros or more on a medallion that now they're being told has zero value because anyone can take their mom's car and become an Uber driver.  So if you want the benefits, there has to be some transition to make sure that everyone starts on a fair footing and people who invested under one system haven't paying for it without having to make that investment. 

>> I don't fully agree with this transition period.  I think with the case of Uber and Airbnb is we face same as broadcasting world.  We need to apply the same set of rules.  And we have to take the profit of new technology and Uber and Airbnb and bring values to make the market more easy for customers, but in the same way we have to apply a set of rules which are based on a free market and the protection of all the players.  The jobs, the employees and the customers and the society.  And if we don't apply a set of rules, we will disrupt the market and we will weak the set of rules will protect employers, customers and society.  It's why in our point of view we have to act really quickly and not accept this long transition period, because she will disrupt the market, but she will also break a set of value and asset that we can use today. 

>> MODERATOR:  Well, I mean, we cannot make a conclusion here.  But compare the last year workshop, I think I would take at least two words.  One is the role platform.  I think it is a similar interesting here as an opportunity to get jobs, especially for young people.  And the other is it's a concern.  It's a concern what we call the Uberization of the economy.  The labor market.  So I think we should work on these issues and maybe next year invite all of you to come.  We open to know more about.  Let's thank all the panel and the contributor a round of applause. 


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