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FINISHED - 2014 09 05 - Open Forum ITU UNICEF - Room 10

FINISHED TRANSCRIPT

 

NINTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE

INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2014

ISTANBUL, TURKEY

"CONNECTING CONTINENTS FOR ENHANCED

MULTISTAKEHOLDER IGF"

 

05 SEPTEMBER 2014

09:00

ITU-UNICEF OPEN FORUM

 

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This is the output of the realtime captioning taken during the IGF 2014 Istanbul, Turkey, meetings.  Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.  It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.  The following is unedited. 

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      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  We will start the session now.  So thank you, everyone, for coming here to the ITU UNICEF open forum.  As you know, as it was mentioned on the website, at this open forum we officially are releasing the updated versions of the guidelines for industry on Child Online Protection.  And the guidelines were originally launched, the original set, were launched in 2009 as a set of four guidelines, for children, parents, guardians, educators, one for industry, which is the one that we have updated now, and one for policymakers.  And the industry guidelines provide advice on how the ICT industry can help to ensure children safety while using the Internet and any associated technologies that can connect to it.  And it also provides guidance to companies on advising ways they can advance children's rights, facilitate citizenship, learning and participation.

      Today's discussion panel will be structured into two parts.  We will first start with a discussion by giving you more details from the industry guidelines, hearing from the key contributors, around the roundtable.  Then we will have a discussion on the implementation plan, the rollout of the new guidelines to ensure that these are widely adopted. 

      Before I introduce the panelists, let me also convey the greetings of our special envoy to the ITU for Child Online Protection, her Excellency, Deborah Taylor Tate, who couldn't be here. 

      Now I'll introduce the panelists.  The first one is the UNICEF corporate responsibility manager, Eija Hietavuo. 

      John Carr, senior expert adviser to the United Nations, ITU. 

      Belinda Exelby, GSMA. 

      Ellen Blackler, Vice President Disney Corporation, world Disney Corporation. 

      And Giacomo Mazzone, who is the head of institutional relations and head of -- and from EBU. 

      And Amy Crocker, online coordinator at INHOPE. 

      Before we start, I'll just explain how we started this exercise of revising the guidelines for industry.  During the meeting of the ITU Council Working Group on Child Online Protection -- and the Council Working Group is a platform.  A Working Group is a Working Group of experts, a platform that ITU provides for all stakeholders to come together, exchange best practices, tools, deliberate on Public Policy issues, and we usually meet twice a year. 

      In the last meeting in February, members recommended that the previous set of guidelines be updated, since it was outdated.  The last time it was drafted was in 2009.  So we started the coordination with ITU's core initiative partners to identify the areas, subject, and new actors to be included in the work.  And we have drafted this document, the co-partners, together as a team.  We have drafted this document through several rounds of consultations among the partners and with a core group of partners contributing to the content of the various sections.  And we will be hearing from some of them. 

      And, of course, we are really grateful to UNICEF, who has been the main partner and supporter.  They took the lead in editing the document, helping to engage key organisations and also promoting the work.  And to be sure that we have a good quality document, we also launched an open consultation last year in Bali at the IGF.  And it was followed by an online consultation.  In January we took all the feedback that we got, and revised the draft that we had based on that.  And we believe now it's a much richer document, bringing different perspectives and several organisations contributed to the work. 

      Quickly, on the structure of the guidelines.  We have five main areas, with six checklists.  The main areas are policy and management processes -- by the way, you have this flier here, in case you haven't picked it up.  It's right there.  It gives you the structure. 

      Policy and management processes. 

      Combatting child sexual abuse contents. 

      Safer and age appropriate content. 

      Educating children, parents and teachers. 

      And positive use of ICTs.  And there are six check lists for mobile operators, ISPs, social media, Internet access in public places, content providers, online developers and others. 

      I'll pass it to Eija, who will introduce the guidelines. 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  I don't know who is in the audience and I'd be interested to know are you civil society or what kind of background do you have?  Because I think that should influence what we say here, because it's basically a very open discussion.  We're just here to share our work and explain why we have done it, and why we think it's a good idea. 

      Well, in any case, I'll just go through some of the whats and whys and hows from the UNICEF perspective.  And I'd be very, very keen to answer any questions that you may have.  Because I think many people may be questioning why we need another set of guidelines, because there are plenty of guidelines and frameworks for Child Online Protection out there.  So what is actually the motivation to start reviewing some old guidelines which were, frankly, not very much used, and so what's the business case, basically?

      Well, the business case for UNICEF was really the fact that we have very many different units working with the ICT industry and the digital world.  And it's been quite a challenge -- as you may imagine, the UN organisation is present in 90 countries -- to connect the dots and have a similar kind of approach to these things, whether it's ICT for development, ICT for communication, Child Online Protection, digital citizenship. 

      So we have been part of the ITU initiative since it was founded, not very actively, I should probably add, because we actually didn't have one kind of focal point for this matter.  And in the recent years, I think it's become much more apparent that we need to consolidate forces across the organisation and work together on this.  And so what we decided, after some review, and actually I have my colleagues here from the research side of the organisation here, and they convened a kind of a UNICEF wide group together to discuss this.  And it was kind of our group; I come from the CSR unit.  We were made responsible for anything to do with, when it comes to Child Online Protection, digital citizenship and business specifically.  So we had the mandate within the organisation.

And then we were looking around to see what kind of policy frameworks or what kind of guidance could we use as the basis across the organisation to make sure we all speak with the same voice and there wasn't anything. 

      So there wasn't anything which would have been rights based, which was very important for us.  There wasn't anything which would be broadly Internationally adopted by businesses which would be up to the standards that would be required, whether it was voluntary or linked to international standards.  But I think the core was really that there was a lot of movement around the UN guidelines and principles and business and human rights. And also on the Convention of the Rights of the Child, there was a general comment which relates to business, and there wasn't any kind of a foundation or framework founded on these things.  Nor was there anything specific to different subsectors of the ICT industry. 

      So as we were speaking with the partners within the ITU initiative, I think there were many other organisations who felt that there should -- we should go back and see, would it be possible to come up with something which would be rights based, which would link to normative frameworks that exist in the context of children and children's rights and business; and which would be broad enough to be adopted Internationally, but something that could be used at the national level and specific to industry. 

      So that was really the foundation.  And I think we have come a long way.  We started within the core group of the members of the ITU-COP initiative.  But when it was broadened to the public consultation, we got a lot of businesses and industry coalitions who also wanted to contribute to this discussion.  Because I think there was a need for something like this to be put together.  

      And I think the process that we went through, it was -- I mean, it was pure pain, I can just speak from the UNICEF perspective.  We received a lot of feedback.  Everybody was disagreeing on most things because we have a lot of Civil Society organisations with very specific missions and mandates looking at addressing a very, very small part of the big world.  So to consolidate something that everybody felt happy with was a major undertaking.  So we're not saying that this framework is perfect.  And it's not even almost perfect.  But I think in terms of the overall first part of the guidelines, which covers the general guidelines, I think that is something which is very solid and it incorporates what is already out there as good practice.  So we looked at the existing frameworks.

So, for instance, there are initiatives within the European Union.  There are other industry initiatives which have been broadly adopted.  And we looked at what is good in these.  What is -- what are the good practice standards out there already?  And we wanted to make sure that this standard goes -- well, it goes beyond that as well.  But it kind of sets the benchmark in that area.  And then we tried to work with the industry bodies and associations, to come up with sector specific guidelines or checklists which would be detailed enough but not something that would establish something which is completely unrealistic. 

      And I think there is a lot of work to be done on the industry specifically, still.  I mean, we have good one example of where I think we have achieved a lot, and that's our friend here at the GSMA, with the mobile operators.  We also have lots of individual companies who have been part of the initiative and provided feedback.  So I think that is -- is work very well done.  I think for the other checklists, I mean, they will be living document, so we look to review and revise these documents moving forward.  So that's why we have the 2014 edition of the guidelines. 

      So I think that's -- that really kind of explains the whys and hows and where we are today.  And I hope, really, sincerely, that these guidelines are going to be used and at least from the UNICEF perspective, we started an internal training programme around this.  We may want to make sure that at the national level our both child protection and other, whether it's ICT innovation people or it's CSR people, they are aware of this work and we already established partnerships with some private sector participants, to make sure that these actually are practical enough that they will also be used at the country level. 

      So I think I'll stop there.  And we also -- we didn't foresee to go through the guidelines in a very sort of detailed structure here.  But if you're interested, we also have PowerPoints where we can maybe explain them. 

      So the guidelines are so fresh that they were actually, the final PDF was put together yesterday.  So you can imagine two UN agencies trying to get the Secretary Generals and ED's signature, because they are endorsed by both of our leaders.  It was quite a lot of paperwork.  But there, they are on the ITU-COP website and hopefully soon also on our Web site.  As we speak, there are also press releases going out and we have initiatives at the country level through the UNICEF offices in some countries.  And looking forward to having more activities, but we will speak about that a bit later. 

      Thank you very much. 

      If you have any questions at this point, I mean, I'm happy to answer.  But maybe we will put the questions together a bit later. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thank you, Eija.  And thank you, again, UNICEF, for taking the lead in putting together the guidelines. 

      Now, I call upon John, who was one of the lead contributors. 

      >> JOHN CARR:  I, too, will be brief.  You'll be glad to hear. 

      I represented ECPAT International in this process, ECPAT being a global NGO headquartered in Bangkok, with members -- and by the way, my boss is here from ECPAT International, Nalli, so I have to check everything with her to make sure I get it right.  Otherwise I'll be in such trouble.  82 members in 75 countries, something like that, on all five continents.  And issues in these guidelines are very much centre space for us.  And our name is on the document, we're very proud and pleased that it is.  And I can confirm Eija’s point about pain.  The drafting -- and in a way, this is a testament to the value of the thing.  I've never been in such a meticulously kind of scrutinized, a document that is being so closely scrutinized and argued over.  Should the comma be there, should the full stop be there?  That's okay for you to say in English, but if that is translated into Albanian, that means your mother is a cow.  So, all of these sort of very, very complicated factors were very, very carefully weighed in the balance. I have never taken part in a process that was quite so careful and quite so long.  I mean, I think it was the best part of two years, in the end, from -- that -- when we began this revision. 

      But I think that gives the document strength and value.  Because -- and it wasn't just people like me.  I mean, the UNICEF and GSMA and me and a few others were the most intensely involved.  But Google, Microsoft, Facebook, a lot -- the BBC, through Giacomo, various broadcasters, there was lots and lots and lots of input from many different substantial -- Disney.  There were lots and lots of substantial input from major players, which again adds to the value and strength of the document.  It's not proscriptive.  It doesn't say there is only one correct way to approach this or that issue.  But it does reflect, as Eija was suggesting, a lot of experience that we have around the world in different bits of the Internet space and sets I hope what will be a very, very useful document, particularly in developing world countries, particularly where new startups are coming into business.

I mean, the big companies know this stuff already or should do.  But a lot of new businesses genuinely that don't have research departments, they don't have much money to employ consultants, sadly.  So this is exactly the kind of document I hope they will use.  And that Governments will be able to look to as well as an indication of what they can reasonably expect businesses that they're dealing with in their own jurisdictions to be able to do. 

      For me, the really interesting and important question will be to see how widely we can get this document propagated.  How can we make sure that everybody in the world who needs to know about it does in fact know about it and how useful it can be. 

      So I don't really want to say anymore, because Eija said most of the really important stuff.  I think it's a great document.  I think it's going to be a very useful document.  I'm glad I did it.  I never want to have to do it again.  But it's been a great process.  A model -- when I look at some of the other processes that are going on within this building, and within the IGF, and I compare it with what happened with this, well, I mean, there is no comparison.  This was serious.  This was professional.  This was well done.  Some of the other processes that I could mention were not.  And the difference in quality in output will be or already is quite obvious. 

      There you are.  I don't want to be controversial, as you know.  So I'll...

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thank you, John. 

      And thank you for all of your effort.  And it's interesting that you mentioned that you've never been part of an exercise where we discuss every comma.  That means that you are lucky enough to have avoided any UN document drafting process.

      (Laughter)

      Now, I'll ask Belinda from GSMA to say a few words. 

      >> BELINDA EXELBY:  Thanks.  Good morning everybody.  As you may be aware, the GSMA represents the interests of the mobile operators around the world.  So what we brought to the process is the mobile industry perspective.  I thought it may be useful to explain where we get the input from, so a justification for the points that we put into the guidelines.  So we actually run two programmes around Child Online Protection with the mobile operators.  One is called M youth and the other is Mobile Alliance Against Child Sexual Abuse Content.  So The Mobile Youth Programme Is Set Up To Protect Child Online Protection and promote the safer use of mobile phones and broadly encourages a self-regulatory approach amongst operators, encouraging them to set up, for example, parental controls or to establish various barriers to children accessing age inappropriate content. We have a large number of members, over 100 involved in that programme.

      Another part of that programme is also an in-depth research project that we do.  And I brought along documents that table there and some memory statistics which have some of the findings of the research.  We have been talking to children and their parents, since 2009.  And so far interviewed over 20,000 sets of parents and children, to understand the societal impact of mobile phone use by children and parental concerns about what their children are accessing.  So that is making sure that children are safe online.  The mobile alliance against child sexual abuse content is an organisation in which -- or an initiative in which operators sign up and commit to implementing a number of mesh sewer, technical measures, that will prevent children -- will prevent people trying to either sort of profit from or host or use their networks to promote child sexual abuse material.

So those operators that do join and we have operators in 67 countries who signed up to do this.  They agreed that they will support and promote hot lines.  And we worked a lot with them INHOPE on that -- in that angle, so customers can report child sexual abuse content.  And they implement notice and take down content.  They can legally remove it.  And they provide technical assistance to access to websites that have been identified as hosting child abuse content. 

      The second part of the guidelines is around checklists for different industries. 

      I wanted to explain where we got our input from.  Some of our operators were involved in this area for many years, particularly Telefonica and Vodafone who were involved -- developed markets very early O.  And it's great that their experience of dealing with these things then is now coming into play, to help operators in countries where it's only now becoming a real tipping point of an issue.  So I think it's very valuable to have that real world practical experience.  Thanks. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thanks, and thanks to GSMA for being a key contributor, you were very active in the process.  I'll pass the floor to Ellen from the walt Disney Company. 

      >> ELLEN BLACKLER:  Thank you.  My name is Ellen Blackler, with the Waltt Disney Company.  I will talk a little bit about the content related sections, what we did there was really collect information I think from companies who have been working in this space for quite a while and tried to put in one place a little bit of the lessons learned and what people who work in that area discovered over time are the risks that manifest themselves online and what you can do to be ready for them when they do.  And I think that was really one of the things that come through well and are emphasized in the guidelines is this idea about having processes in place to deal with these things, rather than -- and knowing what your processes are and knowing who is responsible and having a system in place.  So that when something that you hope doesn't happen happens, you're ready to deal with it.

And I hope that will be useful to other businesses, particularly a lot of times businesses get into a particular product or a line of business and they were not thinking much about children when they started out that way.  They weren't perhaps expecting children to use it.  They weren't even aware that, you know, the kinds of content trouble that is out there.  And so I hope that businesses will use this and at least start to think about the things that they need to have, even if they don't think of themselves as a child service or have even taken steps to prevent children from using their service.  We know that those -- that one can't rely on that, that there is always other possibilities out there and you have to be ready for them. 

      I think the other thing that comes through particularly in the content related sections is the need for industry cooperation to address some of these problems across sectors.  That because the value chain that provides these services to customers include so many people from the mobile operator to the content provider, that we -- I think we have all learned as the Internet has evolved that we all have to be pulling in the same direction on this issue and not pointing fingers at each other when something happens, and I think that comes through as well in the guidelines, that there is some good examples of how to work together and how to make sure you have the lines of communication that you need between different sectors.  Because what we find is -- the best place to address some of these risks isn't always, you know, rely on one single player, it's from a parents' perspective, from a child's perspective, and where they get their information and the time they are paying attention is not the easiest nexus point for one particular part of the industry to deal with.

So that's why it's helpful I think when the -- for instance, when an app developer, when the platform and mobile provider are on the same page about giving information to parents and providing opportunities.  We have a chance to catch people when they're paying attention and not simply kind of relying on one industry sector to do it. 

      The other thing that I think people should be thinking about when it -- and that comes through in the guidelines as well, is that in a lot of countries there are specific legal requirements that have to be addressed particularly related to privacy and advertising.  And so we tried to highlight those in there and make sure that, again, people as they're developing their products are aware of those things, even if they are not intending their product to be used for children.  We all know how the Internet works.  And kids are going to find what is out there.  So I think that comes through as well, that people need to be aware of these particular legal requirements, and designing their product to comply with them at the outset.  And I guess I, too, will stop there and we will hear from the group.

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thanks, Ellen. 

      Now Giacomo.  He brought in the broadcaster’s perspective; EBU was leading that effort, so Giacomo, if you would. 

      >> GIACOMO MAZZONE:  EBU, European Broadcasting Union represents as you know, 64 members, broadcasting organisations of Europe, idle east and North Africa and attending the IGF and WSIS process on behalf of the world Broadcasting Union.  The other 7 Broadcasting Unions that represent all the continents. 

      We have a long tradition of cooperating with the ITU in various sectors.  And one of the sectors is the child protection.  We started this in the past, but we have intensified in the last period.  And we have participated with all the efforts in this direction.  For instance, the child online action that has been created some years ago, we are founding members.  And also the special Council Working Group that deals with the same topic. 

      When we were invited the first time five years ago to work through the first edition of the guidelines, we participated, because for the broadcaster sector, as Ellen just said, it's crucial to have a trustful relation with the audience.  And this is particularly true for the national and the public service broadcaster.  You deserve the trust of the families, and you need to build them and to continue to have this relation with your audience.  The fact that we, most of our members, are nonprofit organisations and are acting on the basis of specific remits and missions make it even more important for us to fulfill this scope. 

      In the -- the guidelines of 20O8 became obsolete.  Just to give you an idea, in these guidelines we were still talking of MySpace as an example of social network.  Probably you don't even remember what MySpace was.  So last year --

      >> JOHN CARR:  I do. 

      >> GIACOMO MAZZONE:  When you were at school, yes? 

      So you see that we are facing a sector in a very fast evolution and we have to cope with that.  The broadcasting world as you know is not equal -- is not all on the same page.  According to countries, we have countries where digitalization process has gone very far away.  Most of Europe is now digital signal everywhere, but the rest of the world it's not the case.  But even within our area, Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, there are countries where Internet penetration is still not so easy and not so spread around.  So we need to face a different degree of involvement of our members of the broadcasting world.  Because in some countries, they have already gone online, they have already a lot of on diamond traffic -- on demand traffic and in others they have not.  The same problem in ITU, we have to find a tool that could be modular and

      So in this sense, the effort that we have done thanks to the UNICEF joining the effort, is very important.  Because I think that last time we had a tool that was important, because it was establishing principle.  But now we have really something that is like a Czech list -- a checklist that each one could apply.  Some will stop at point 3 and others arrive to point 6 and others fulfill all of them.  We can say to others, please do this as a tool for checking so that you have attuned with the best practices existing in the world, knowing not all of them will be on the same page at the same time. 

      The work that we have done was not from scratch, but was based on a lot of efforts that were already done by some of our members, mainly BBC, that is probably the most advanced in this sector because they have to deal with people, us and them every day, like John Carr asked if they are complying with the best practices.  So probably because of that, they are the most advanced.  But also, others. 

      The problem that we had is that most of the documents are internal documents of broadcasters, not all of them public on their website, and most of them are the national languages.  So it was painful to go through all the different documents.  But I have to say that they were, most of them, on the same line.  And we used this in order to compile what, according to the standard that we share with you, seems the best practices in the sector. 

      To give an idea, we used the Swedish document, the Swedish television, radio, the Italian document, but also the TRT gave us suggestions.  They have a special channel, Charchuk, and others all around the region.  So we are very glad to participate in this effort, and I think that we have to consider that this, what you can see as a printed version, is simply the tip of the iceberg.  You know, the idea according to our will.  And then in the online version we could update, not waiting another five years to make a structural revision.  And also you can integrate with a lot of other literature that could exist.  For instance, yesterday it was mentioned that the offline addresses, we cannot publish all of them in the lists, initial printed document.  But of course on the online this could be enriched and could be more detailed.

      Thank you. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thank you.  And you brought up a good point.  This is a living document.  It will be updated with information and we also are providing an online platform for case studies that I'll explain after I first call upon Amy to say a few words. 

      >> AMY CROCKER:  My name is Amy.  For those of you who don't know INHOPE in the room, I'm here to represent INHOPE, the International Association of Internet Hotline, and there are 51 members around the world, providing outputting mechanisms for the public and child sexual abuse material found on their platform, and to remove them from public access. 

      Our UK partner, the Internet Works Foundation, has been involved in this process.  They can't be here this morning, but I do speak I hope for them and also for our members around the world. 

      Obviously these guidelines are very broad.  And INHOPE's role and perspective is particularly focusing on the development of processes for dealing with child sexual abuse material found online.  The contribution from INHOPE, from the Internet Works Foundation, draws on 15 years of experience working very closely with industry as well as other sectors to address the challenges, whether it's in detecting material found online or establishing effective processes for removing the material and reporting it to law enforcement. 

      So really our excitement and our commitment to this document is helping industry, particularly in countries where it's very challenging to get the buy in from industry and from Government to really move processes forward to protect children online.  The work that I do with the INHOPE Foundation is particularly focusing in emerging markets where the processes are not established, and these guidelines provide an excellent framework for helping industry and helping Government to establish hot lines in the country to put together processes. 

      So thank you all for inviting me to be here.  And I hope certainly when we talk a bit more about, as many panelists have mentioned, implementation, how we move forward, because this is really the key point.  You know, how do we use these guidelines to make changes for children?  And I really know that INHOPE's role will be I think very key in this.  And we really look forward to working with everyone to implement the guidelines in countries around the world. 

      Thank you. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thanks, Amy.  And before we open up the floor for the first round of question, I'd like to point you to an online platform that we have that hosts case studies, providing detailed information on policy, best practices, actions of the broader ICT industry as implemented in this area.  It's an extended component of the guidelines for industry as these were updated by ITU units of the copartners.  And the case studies follow. 

The structure of the document for this particular aspect, focusing on five key areas: integrating child rights considerations into appropriate corporate policies and management processes; developing standards to help child sexual abuse material handling; creating a safer and age appropriate online environment; educating children, parents, teachers about child safety, and the responsibile use of ICTs; and the last one is promoting digital technology as a mode for engagement.

And we call upon the industry representatives in the room to also submit case studies to the platform so it could be combined with the experience. 

      With that, I'll just open the floor for questions at this point, to see if you have any questions about the guidelines as such, before we go to the next part. 

      Is there a microphone that someone can pass on?

      A mic for questions?

      So again, does anyone have any questions, now that we have a mic ready?  

      >> AUDIENCE:  Yes, hello, my name is Diana.  I represent the institutions here from the Ukraine.  And for us, this fear of protecting especially children on the Internet, it's an important sphere.  But we don't have a well-developed national legislation at this point and also for some Regulations for business.  We have certain mechanisms of so to say industrial association of such online claims, but I know that it's not enough.  That is why I hope that I can also transfer the information that I get here to them, maybe they can use it also.  But I need to understand more about what are the main content of the guideline, can you please tell in more details?  Thank you. 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  I don't know if it's the best use of our time to go into detail, but I'd just like to add to something that we actually didn't address.  So as you may remember from the introduction, so from the ITU COP initiative, there were four sets of guidelines that were developed and we are also in the process or the beginning of a process to review another document, which is AM dot Governments, and it's about policy development.  And John Carr has done the first round of that and currently it's been parked at UNICEF.  But I'm happy to let you know that it is moving forward.  So I think this is -- I would see this, these guidelines, as something that you can advocate with the Government.  But it's not adequate enough to leverage for policy development.

I mean, I think maybe in the area of online child abuse content, there are elements which are easier to take in separation.  But in terms of, if you look at Convention on the Rights of the child and cybercrime and these connecting points, et cetera, it becomes quite complex in terms of legislation. 

And maybe John would like to add to this? 

      >> JOHN CARR:  Well, two things.  Is there a flier -- okay.  So you've got the five headings within the document, covering the broad issues that are being addressed.  But it's not a proscriptive document.  It doesn't say this is the only correct way to do this or that.  But it reflects experience as we heard that has been gathered by companies and by NGOs around the world.  So I think when you get it -- and I think it will be produced in Russian anyway.  It will be translated into --

      >>AUDIENCE: (Off microphone)

>> JOHN CARR:  Yes, the stuff going on over -- there's stuff going on over there at the moment. 

      But the good news, I guess, is that ECPAT has a branch in the Ukraine, Ulgaswedt.  But we have a local office, as it were, and I'd be happy to -- Hilo who is from the head office in Bangkok.  We can give you her contact details.  She lives in Kiev and we can follow through with any other points that you might have.  Yeah.  Yeah. 

      >> GIACOMO MAZZONE:  You always refer to Ukraine.  First, you cannot expect, in my opinion, everything from legislation.  Legislation is just to give some framework.  But then most of the activities are suggested by us, recommended by us that could be made through the self-regulation of the operators in participation with the authorities. 

      Because now you are in the process and the EBU participated with the Council of Europe to shape the mandate for the broadcasters and also the application for the new legislation.  I think this is the right moment to address this issue in a way that within the status of the new broadcasters, within the remnants, this will be precise.  And then this can be discussed with the rest of the community or the visual industry in the country.  For us it's the best solution.  Never legislation can solve all of your problems and never can it cope with the various changes in the environment.  So you need both legislation and local agreement between various parts. 

      >> AUDIENCE:  How are the guidelines -- how do the guidelines reflect the emerging issue, such as the right to be forgotten and the right for children to ask for take down of materials posted by their parents or friends? 

      >> JOHN CARR:  There is certainly a lot in there about children's rights.  I mean, the point was made at the beginning, the whole tenor of the document approaches it from a child's rights perspective and children have legal rights to access the Internet and do certain things.  People forgot, they think that we're trying to stop them or protect them.  That's not the case.  I can't remember if there is a reference to the right to be forgotten.  I think that might have come along very late in the process.  But the framework I hope is suggestive of an approach that would indicate people should be paying attention to that and then listening to what young people have to say about the issues. 

      And it is a living document, just to go back to the point that Preetem made.  The PDF can be adjusted in time to reflect anything that comes through. 

      >> ELLEN BLACKLER:  On the UGC section in particular has a lot of information about the need to have takedown policies, clear content policies including take down procedures and including requests for take down from users.  So again what I hope that that does is it stimulates companies to think about what their policies are going to be, be clear about their policies, and disclose their policies so users know before they go in.  But John is right, it doesn't say here is how you implement the right to forget. 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  The aim of the document is not to solve sort of global issues of Freedom of Expression or privacy or things which are broader than just child rights as well.  I mean, we do recognize that there are issues, issues beyond -- when it comes to human rights rather than just child rights. 

      >> AUDIENCE:  The point about the conditions of service and such, I guess that children are not necessarily old enough to know better.  And they are often posting stuff that isn't about themselves but it's about their peers.  And many children are subjected to pictures in utero, pointing out that they have birth defects, or no, I found this out at the ultrasound today.  So children have a digital record long before they have rights or capacity to question it, and then they want to take it down. 

      >> AUDIENCE:  I think that's a good point.  It's a specific child rights piece.  So Mark Furman from Mozilla.  As I was glancing through the guidelines for the first time, I wondered as you were tackling all of this, how you feel you landed on what I think is commonly in these debates, the tension between an empowerment piece, digital literacy, and the blocking controls piece, which is as soon as you empower kids to understand how the Internet works, the blocking control piece doesn't work anymore.  It's easy to figure out how to get around it.  How do you deal with the tension of control over information and access, versus kind of making sure kids are as empowered with the technology as possible?  There seems there is a tension in there.  How did you guys wrestle with that? 

>>JOHN KARR:   Well, there is no single or correct answer to it.

For example, few people argue about the importance -- at least from a normative standpoint -- of trying to ensure that no illegal content, child abuse content, is not accessible.  So in that respect blocking is not controversial and the concept is not controversial.  But there are arguments about methods like what is more effective, et cetera. 

      By the way, there was research done in the UK by OFCOM which indicated that whilst it was true that many kids knew how to circumvent block, the great majority of them didn't.  Some did but the great majority didn't.  The idea that every child is a super cool dude and knows how to do everything and get everywhere on the Internet, it's a myth.  So technical solutions can play a limited part.  But the fundamental message of this document is child's rights.  So we don't want any technical tools to be used to deprive children of the legal rights that they have under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.  I won't try to guess what the numbers were, because Eija will correct me when I get it wrong.  But there is a statement that children have the right to information to express their opinion, to associate with others and so on. Nothing in this document argues against that, but recognizes that in particular circumstances, there are things that need to be done.  And how we do them and who does them, these are questions that will vary from one jurisdiction to the next.

      >> AUDIENCE:  So just because I only scanned the document a minute ago, is this mostly related to illegal content, which is obvious.  Or is it broader? 

      >> JOHN CARR:  We talk about an age appropriate environment.  In the UK, it's technically illegal for any company anywhere in the world to publish pornography within the legal borders of the UK without first ensuring that there is an age verification mechanism in place.  The fact that PornHub disregards that completely and always is an issue.  It's a problem.  And it's in that -- that's the basic idea.

      >> AUDIENCE:  Great, thanks. 

      >> GIACOMO MAZZONE:  Just to answer to what the Australian colleague said, asked before.  If you look at list of organisations that contributed, probably you will see that there are some missing important actors.  Guess why they are absent from that list and guess why certain kind of topics have not been treated?  This is reality.  We are producing guidelines for industry based on voluntary commitment.  We are committed to what we say.  We are committed to what we write.  Others decide not to commit and not to write.  That's the reality that we have to face. 

      And concerning the Mozilla, what you expressed, you have to consider guidelines are always a bottom line consensus point.  We cannot go a lot far beyond, because then it will not be any more guidelines.  It would be something that you prescribe only to those who can attend.  And basically, it's a big cultural problem.  What is forbidden -- what is forbidden in one region in the world or what is appropriate for children could be appropriate in other parts of the world.  This is the problem for broadcasters.  Before it was simple.  You put the controversial programme late at night because we supposed that children were sleeping.  But when you have the on-demand world, these are the contents that you would like to spot first.  So we have to find out a solution and the age verification is really an issue.

In fact at the ITU we are working within the technical community to try to see if it's possible to have age verification mechanisms that are intrusive and reflecting Freedom of Expression and access to content that could be used eventually for us.  But at the moment we're not there. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  One last question and then we will move on to the second part.

      >> AUDIENCE:  Yes, I'm from EU Kids Online.  I have a question about implementation.  And it's a question that comes from the efforts of the better Internet programme, trying to find ways of getting some accountability from companies about how they do manage their Child Online Protection practices.  And what we learned there is very many companies don't know if those who are using the services are children, and that is sufficient often to say therefore we don't need child protection policies.  We cannot know who is holding the mobile phone.  We cannot know who is visiting the website.  We don't know fair child, therefore, as it were, we don't have children on our services. 

      Some companies dedicate themselves to children, like Disney knows its market is children.  But you said something about hoping that companies who weren't specifically targeting children but nonetheless had children on their services would implement these guidelines.  And I wondered what kind of encouragement or comply answer might be behind that. 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  We will discuss implementation now.  But I think you have a good point.  We have had discussions with many companies who are in that situation and I think this links to the whole value chain and especially the mobile operator, they have some of the biggest challenges with the smartphones.  But I think -- we don't have the actual answer to your question.  But one thing that we have been talking about with GSMA and with some others and all that, so you know it needs to be collaboration.  There needs to be a policy level support for some of these changes to happen.  There needs to be genuine interest in specifying products that are targeting children if they are currently in the adult category and it's children using them.  And there needs to be mechanisms to just monitor the age of the user.

But this is also very specific to the sub sectors of the ICT industry, how it can be controlled. 

>> BELINDA EXELBY:  And your point about the mobile operators is true, it's a challenge.  And the big part of our youth programme is the education of parents and that's why the research brings in the parent angle as well and how much they are aware of what the children are doing.  We interview them separately.  And there is a big gap in knowledge between the two groups.  And that does help the operators to go out with the message about responsibility as a parent, you also have responsibility.  It's not just down to the operator, because we can't tell the person at the end of the phone.  But it's something that we're very aware of and we try to encourage the operators to make sure that that education element is built in so that the parent will use the controls that are provided and help address the programme.

      >> AUDIENCE:  We tried to follow through what happened when there was concern with the child.  So it came down to things like whether the call centre that the customers call into asked about if there was a concern for the child.  And none of them said that they did.  So even if parents are aware that children are encountering a problem, if the servicers are not able to deal with the child, and they log-in as whatever they are, it doesn't get that kind of attention.  And that's the follow through that I'm interested in. 

>>JOHN CARR: I'm not sure that the UN is equipped to deal with the details, follow through and accountability stuff.  And there is a sister document, what do they call it?  The business rights thing? 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  Parallel to this initiative, we have other initiatives with the industry, as from the broader business end children's rights perspective.  One thing that we're doing which is specific to the mobile operator sub segment currently is we're working with operators to do an impact assessment of both their sort of internal processes around the products and services, whether it's workplace, marketplace or comment, but also at the country level in countries where they operate.  So one of the GSMA members has initiated this and we're working with the consultancy and I hope this type of tools for the different sub sectors of the ICT sector will support them in assessing their own processes and procedures and how this can be tackled. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  So Sonia's question was a good segue to our second part, which is discussing the implementation, the roll out plans.  How do we ensure that these guidelines reach the widest possible industry players and the right player, and that these are adopted by them? 

      So at ITU, we plan to organise regional events, roundtable discussions.  We're trying to spread the awareness also among our Sector Members.  At ITU we have 7 Sector Members, which are essentially private industry player, some of the largest tech companies in the world.  We are targeting the regulators through our events that we have for them, like ITU telecom, the global symposium for regulators.  Of course, on all of this we will be partnering with the key actors within the COP initiative.  praw but now I'll ask the pan --

      About now I'll ask the panelists to share their thoughts and ideas and anyone in the audience, feel free to pitch in here.  Belinda? 

      >> BELINDA EXELBY:  I'm pleased to say last year UNICEF and GSMA made an announcement that we will be work together in Latin America is our first target region to roll out the guidelines to all of the mobile operators there.  It's a region that is growing rapidly in terms of mobile broadband adoption and the issue is -- the issue of child protection is becoming more and more relevant all the time in that market.  So we have our first workshop for operators in Paraguay in October and that will be followed by others later in the year.  So we are excited about that.  And it's a way to practically put forward the guidelines to people who can use them. 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  I'll just expand from that.  So within UNICEF, the way that we're approaching the roll out or the practical implementation, so first of all we are starting an internal training programme.  We have done that.  We have identified Latin American as the pilot region where we're doing internal workshops and with the help of GSMA and other partners, we want to make sure that our child protection colleague, CSR colleague, our colleagues in the education area, we all have the same kind of view.  Plus we also have existing private sector partners also in this region.  So making sure that we kind of, at the national level, we set up the structure so that it reflects the national policies, what is actually happening there, and basically it's an approach where we tackle things from the pace line perspective of where the -- baseline perspective of where the country stands.

And this is really, we're learning, so we don't know exactly what it's going to look like.  But we really look forward to this cooperation, which is GSMA, because they obviously have a lot of experience already from these countries.  So the idea is that there will be five countries in Latin America.  Parallel to this we have been researching countries to sort of focus countries in Asia and also the Gulf area, and Africa, to see that there is going to be a next range of countries where some of these pilots will then be brought over. 

      I think we already run quite a lot of programmes in schools around the world.  We obviously do a lot of child protection on sort of offline child protection programmes.  We do lots of CSR work with the ICT sector.  We do ICT for development and ICT for communication.  We have a research group who are very, very well endorsed into ICT related research.  So I think we have a lot of potential to push this agenda forward.  I think there are challenges, now that we have been doing this country level research piece, we realise that the baseline in addressing and understanding about children on the Internet in most countries, outside of Europe, I guess, thanks to Sonia, it's very difficult to understand what is actually out there.  So I think we will be starting from very basics and trying to figure out also how do we set up the baseline, which should then inform what is required at the national level from all the different areas where un self operates.

Plus the private sector part is on top of that.  So lots of work ahead. 

      >> JOHN CARR:  Okay.  One of the reasons why I personally have always felt very particular about working -- very enthusiastic about working with the ITU and UNICEF and UN family of organisations is precisely because they have a reach into parts of the world, particularly the developing world, that, frankly, none of the European or North American organisations can happen, and that's for political and historic reasons that we all understand.  But Governments and argues the in the developing world, listen to the UN, listen to the institutions like UNICEF and ICT, in a way that they just won't to the rich white guys who keep invading countries and stuff like that. 

      It's a fact of life.  I wish it was more based on reality, but this is keen. 

      So I hope this document has an impact and reaches to places for the wonderful work that is being done in the EU and the United States, just won't.  The UN has its regional structure, it has its people on the ground in all these parts of the world and now it has documents like this to work with.  So I'm pretty sure within ECPAT International, which is a global body, we will be doing what we can to push it out amongst our members.  And it will be easier for us to -- for them to accept it because it has come from a UN institution and not from another one. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Ellen and then Amy. 

      >> ELLEN BLACKLER:  Sure.  I think we have a really significant challenge, particularly in the app space and the content space, because these are -- there are so many more companies, it's not really comparable to the mobile operator space.  And they just come from a different culture of not -- of operating you, you know, with speed and operating in a really kind of minimal way to get your product out there.  And I don't think we have -- see the same emphasis in that industry on kind of understanding from the policymakers' perspective, issues like, you know, child safety.  They don't see the emphasis.  Instead we see an emphasis on anonymity.  You know, the regulatory incentives are such that you're actually incented to not to know who your users are.  Once you know that they are children then you have all the regulatory requirements and that's the ethic that comes out of that ecosystem.

So that's where the big challenge is, between that history and just the sheer numbers of people who probably don't know the regulator exists.  That's where I see the challenge.  And some of that, I think, is reflected in the guidelines, which tried to be less about compliance in a scary way, and more about here are the things you should be thinking about. 

      But that is where the bigger challenge will be.  You know, the mobile operators are well down this road of acting responsibly.  And I think, you know, we have differences of views about what they should be doing.  But they are certainly in there, trying to figure out the right thing to do. I just don't think we have that culture in the app space, for lack of a better word. 

      >> AMY CROCKER:  Yes, thanks.  I just wanted to go a little bit back to the previous point about particularly looking at the Latin American region, but the focus of the INHOPE foundation.  We are working particularly in Latin America right now and Southeast Asia.  We work through NGO, Civil Society organisations who are working on issues of Internet safety and child online safety.  And we're seeing a lot of momentum and interest in actually pushing industry and pushing Governments to do more to protect children online, and that includes our focus area, which is child sexual abuse material and managing that.  We have been working very closely with GSMA on this for several years.  We have also codeveloped from the hot line perspective, a guide for establishing a hot line which also talks about working with industry, building relationships with industry.

So it's really sort of interesting to look at how we can bring these different areas together.  And absolutely, working with some of the very small organisations I work with and working closely with ECPAT.  And it can be hugely challenging for small organisations to get access to often International industry, global industry bodies who are operating in their countries. 

      So having associations with, as John mentioned, you know, UNICEF with ITU, is really important because it does give some traction.  And this is important in many countries.  So with that, we're excited to see how we can support efforts in Latin America and moving forward in other regions. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  I believe there is a comment there?

      >> AUDIENCE:  My name is Jasmine, I work with the Office of Research, Eija's colleague.  I want to echo what was said.  This is fantastic, the guidelines that are out.  And we're all looking forward to it.  And it reminds me of another initiative that ECPAT started, code of Conduct on Protection from Sexual Abuse.  And mobilizing the private sector is to adopt the guidelines, it's not -- it's great, but it's not always sufficient, because there needs to be also follow-up of the process and impact assessment.  And I'm glad to hear that this is happening with the GSMA.  And from the research perspective, as Eija pointed out, we don't have the baselines.  How do we know where the impact has really been made on children's lives?  And are you planning to also, through the process of adoption of the guide lines by the private sector, kind of influence them in a way to also do some follow-up through self assessment, impact evaluations, periodically, to see what difference does it make, not only in the private sector and in -- but also in the lives of children.

      >> GIACOMO MAZZONE:  Anything on how you are going to get the broadcasters aware of this?

      >> JOHN CARR:  Are you going to get all of your members to do a documentary about how important this is? 

      >> GIACOMO MAZZONE:  No, no, never.  As a trade association we cannot impose anything on our members on the editorial part.  They have full independence from the governance emerging from us. 

      So yes, of course we try to stress this point to them, and each one will answer according to his internal policy.

      But in terms of the commitment for the future, first we are strongly committed that to make of this a living document.  Because we have seen that we cannot sit on it and waiting for the next five years before to change again, because the situation is so fastly changing. 

      And the first thing we have to do, all of us within the ITU and UNICEF, is to push on those members of the industry that didn't accept to sit with us in this phase, to reconsider their position and to come.  I think they will come.  It's inevitable for them to come, because there is a need for global policies or at least global recommendations. 

      What we should do as broadcasters, well, the document is on our website since this morning.  But then we will send individual letters to each General Director of our members, with a letter of our President explaining the importance of the document.  And we also presented -- we will present it at the General Assembly that we have in December, where most of our members attend. 

      A part of that, what we -- the work that the -- that the EBU does is usually a part of these regional meetings in which we find and we meet and gather. 

      There is also this core business transfer of competencies.  So when we have a best practice somewhere, we suggest to the members, the new members or old members, for example, there is a launch of a website.  We have a mission going there, helping them to properly set it, in October.  And of course, the first -- one of the first things that they will do will be to take into account this, to have a specific Child Online Protection section within their policy, this is what we do every day.  And this is what we will do for the next years after this document. 

      Thank you. 

      >> PREETEM MALOOR:  I know we can always count on you.  Belinda? 

      >> BELINDA EXELBY:  I forgot to mention one other thing that the GSMA will be doing.  We run a capacity building programme for regulators and policymakers, which we target around a thousand students each year to go through our courses.  And within our programme we have a two day course on mobile and children, which talks about best practice and case studies, and how policymakers should approach the issue.  So we will be referring to the guidelines in that course content and we hopefully will have about -- we will have it about 25 times before the end of this year. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  You mentioned something that I'd like to follow up on.  In the ITU's world telecom conference in Dubai in March and capacity building for Child Online Protection at the regional level, our members play particular emphasis on this.  So we will be launching regional initiatives and the guidelines will be an important part of that. 

      So anyone else have any questions on this?

      >> AUDIENCE:  May I have further information about the programme that you just mentioned about? 

      >> BELINDA EXELBY:  Probably something we can pick up after the session and I can take you through the course catalog.

      >> AUDIENCE:  Hello.  I just wanted to say that sharing with -- we're sharing with our network, the guidelines, you should send it to the network and the members. 

      >> EIJA HIETAVUO:  Actually, in terms of the question about the baseline, I think Preetem was going to talk about some of the metrics or what does success look like.  No?

      Well, okay.  But maybe just to mention that we are looking at the metrics.  So how do we measure success in terms of this initiative and broader?  And I think this whole thing about the baseline is absolutely critical as a question there.  How do we measure that in order to measure our success?

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Anymore comments?  Suggestions?  Ideas?  Because it's very clear, I mean, we need help from the room to reach out to your constituents so that industry can be aware of what we are doing and we encourage you to adopt and implement these guidelines. 

      So even if you cannot think of anything right now, please reach out to us.  We will be very happy to take your suggestions.

      >> AUDIENCE:  How are you going to evaluate if the guidelines is actually implemented in the industries.  So do you have a mechanism for that, to evaluate, to really understand the impact of the guidelines in the market? 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  So this is a good time for me to bring up what Eija just mentioned.  We are -- so as part of the broader COP initiative, we moving towards a more results based management type of appear pro. we are setting targets to maximize the impact.  Currently we're doing a lot of work, but we are funding activities, reporting on individual activities, so what we want to do is kind of take a shift from this and look at more focusing on the results, focusing on funding for results, collaborating towards a common vision, aligning your existing and kind of new activities according to targets, objective, goals.  Then it's easier to measure the results.  It's also easier to bring reporting mechanisms and accountability in place.

So we are working on that as part of the COP initiative.  Once we have kind of something that we can agree on as COP partners, then we will be presenting it for open consultation for better buy in from all stakeholders.  So it's a work in progress at this point.

      >> AUDIENCE:  I'm originally from a business intelligence background and I used to create the KPIs for the business industries.  So maybe we can come up with a framework or we can come up with a balanced approach on various nations and various industries, so that we can really see by, you know, in period wise, if the guidelines is actually affecting the industry more.  Maybe we can work together on that. 

      >> PREETAM MALOOR:  Thanks.  In fact, we are having a small meeting after this session, not in this room but in a room which is in the main building, first floor, called Fatih 6.  It's an informal meeting, just small brainstorming, but we are happy if you would be around. 

      Further questions?  I think we are perfectly on time.  Exactly.  So again we thank you all for coming here and we hope you do your best to make sure that the guidelines are widely disseminated and adopted. 

      Thank you very much.

      (Applause)

       (End of session, 10:30

 

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      This is the output of the realtime captioning taken during the IGF 2014 Istanbul, Turkey, meetings.  Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to the inaudible passages or transcription errors.  It is posed as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 

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