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                         FINISHED TRANSCRIPT





                          24 OCTOBER, 2013


                              No. 62

               * * *

   This transcript is being provided in a rough-draft

format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) or

captioning are provided in order to facilitate communication

accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of

the proceedings.

               * * *

   >> Hello. This is Room 3, can our participants hear us?

   Can Becca hear us?

   Maybe if so, you can send me a text message.

   Hello to Becca, can you talk?

   >> Anjan, we need you back.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Good afternoon, everyone. I think we are ready to

start now. Just the logistics of passing on the presentations. Just

bear with us one minute and we will start.


   >> ANJAN BOSE: Good afternoon, once again. And welcome to the 7th

version of our Dynamic Coalition and there are lots of known faces

around the room and a few new members.

   My name is Anjan Bose, I'm with ECPAT International. Just a quick

update about why we are here. This is a permanent platform that we

have managed to secure to advance our work at this very big policy

discussions that is happening. On Internet Governance, and this brings

us space to bring the child protection and the Internet issues with a

much higher and global audience.

   Usually we go around the room and introduce each other, but we

decided not to do it this time because everybody knows each other.

   But having said that, I will take the liberty to introduce three of

our new members. We have over there at the back, please, if you can

raise your hand, at the representatives from the Elena and Madeline

Foundation and they're represented by Judith -- I don't know if I

pronounce your last name, is it Mocumbo?

   Sorry, I got the -- the spelling is not very clear here. And the

general manager for programmes, Fiona McIntosh, and the cyber safety

specialist, Jeremy Blackman. They're a new member to our coalition.

They have just joined. We have a representative from disk foundation

who is proudly attending another workshop at the same time. I just

forgot to mention.

   We have a few members who are missing from the room today. That's

because of the scheduling of IGF didn't allow this participation, you

know, because there is another cyber child and youth participation

workshop happening, which they are either panelists or need to attend.

So it's a pity, but that's how it is.

   Having said that, I would give you a very, very quick introduction of

what we are going to do for this session today. Unlike previous years

where we do a lot of information sharing, information exchange, sharing

good practices and initiative, which we still try to allude to at the

beginning in terms of what our members do and see as challenge through

the course of their work; this year we have decided to focus on child

sexual abuse materials. And why did we do that?

   How we are going to -- what we are going to do, I will allow Mr. John

Car, who you all know is the leading expert on child online abuse

issue -- and he has joined ECPAT International as our global advisor on

child online safety. And he will lead that session on what we want to

do on child sexual abuse materials and how -- what are our propositions

in terms of indicators, what we need to get. It will be an open


   Leading to that as a prop that leads us to that discussion we have

three presentations today. On my left, I just want to introduce you to

the panelists. We have Susie Hargreaves, from the Internet watch

foundation, we have Mr. Russell Chadwick from In Hope, and on my right,

Linda Chadwick from -- who's based in Singapore. A paper -- a segment

of -- in a specific version of appointment. And she will -- they will

be presenting their work in relation to child sexual abuse as that fits

in the context of our core discussions today.

   But as I said today, I just wanted to give you a glimpse of what our

members are doing, we have a diverse set of membership. So some of

them are in education and awareness, particularly the ones -- we have

Navine Tewfik from ministry of ICT in Egypt, and Navine has been very

much engaged from the beginning with the coalition in terms of

education and awareness and in terms of policy, and also within the

Arab region, a lot of legal reform work.

   And talking of Navine, I want to introduce another new member.

Eitesal NGO, a national representative of the Egyptian committee

represented by Mr. Hassan El Gamal, who is not here today but is a new

member. What this diverse set of people bring to the table is a

research of experience and resources that every member from different

region can benefit from. And we are not going to delve into what each

one of us are doing, but in summary, the key areas of work are online

safety, resources for work, child participation, education and

awareness, and also working at legal reform project, working with

ministries, and both regional and international levels.

   So it's a cross-cutting platform. We do have representation from the

industry -- we have in house -- I'm sorry, IWF and also from GSMA, who

is not able to come here today.

   Finally, I would just like to give the floor very briefly from

Preetam from ITU, who is also one of our members, ITU is a member of

the Dynamic Coalition, very briefly to present what they're doing in

terms of the COP guidelines for industries. I will just pull up the

slide and if Preetam -- yes. And my apologies for missing out

Jacqueline and Kim, who are very much in forefront, are representing

Microsoft. And I do beg your apologies for omitting you from the

industry partners. My apologies.

   Am I missing anyone who is here who is a regular?

   And then Jutta Kroll is here. I'm looking, but I have a very long

side. So Jutta is here, one of our founder members representing

Digitale -- I can never pronounce the full name in German. It's -- she

does a lot of work with young people, giving them empowerment and

access in Germany. That's the kind of strength that we have, the

diversity of our members.

   So Preetam, if you would like to say a couple of words, I can pull up

the slides.

   >> PREETAM MALOOR: Not to scare you, there will be just one slide.

Before I do that, I want to thank Anjan for inviting us. My colleague

Karla is the one who works on this topic. I'm sure most of you know

her. If you -- please pass on your cards if you need to get in touch

with her. I will make sure that...

   Specifically on the guidelines, of course you might know that in 2009

ITU working with the COP partners released a set of guidelines, for

children, guidance and educators, for industry and policy-makers.

   And this year working with child protection, a group of member,

multistakeholder group including all core partner, decided it's time

for the industry guidelines to be updated. Since 2009 the world has

moved quite a bit. Technologies have changed. Access to technologies

have changed, ideas have changed.

   So since the beginning of this year, ITU with the core partners have

been working on revising the guidelines. And we are particularly

grateful to union self in this regard because they have taken the lead

in the editorship of this new revised guideline. We've gone through

multiple set of iterations. I think many in this room have

contributed. We are grateful to them. Right now we are at a stage

where we have a draft guideline that we now require multistakeholder

input. And the open forum we had this morning, the ITU -- one step in

the multistakeholder input and we are thankful for the input we

received. We put the guidelines on line and you will see the link


   And it will be -- tonight it will also be directly accessible from

the ITU and UNICEF website. UNICEF.org -- we thank you for making the

guidelines much better and useful to all of you.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you, Preetam. That is a wrap-up of the session

they had this morning. That was more of like an update from our

general member sections. I would be very happy if you can take the --

you know, outside of this forum after we finish, to keep in touch and

to share the resources and connect with each other on a continuous

basis as a platform for sharing information. Because we only meet once

a year.

   At this forum. We should be using the online platforms of other

channels of communication to keep our interactions going. With that

said, I'd just like to open the presentation section for today. As I

said before, we have three presentation, all reeled to in some ways,

the element of child -- combatting child sexual abuse materials online.

And my first speaker is Russell Chadwick from InHope who is going to

give you overall umbrella understanding of how do they see the problem,

what kind of reports are emerging, and the trends.

   So without further ado I pass the floor to you, Russell.

   >> RUSSELL CHADWICK: Good afternoon, everybody. And I would like to

say thank you to ECPAT for giving me the opportunity to speak.

   For those of you who don't know what InHope do, I put together some

slides which will outline the work of the association, and also give

you some information on what we provide to our stakeholders which is

law enforcement. So who we are. We were founded in 1999, in the safe

Internet programme to combat child sexual abuse material. And we're an

umbrella organisation, we represent 44 hotlines and 38 countries. And

head quarters is in Amsterdam, even though I'm based in the U.K. and I

travel over to Brussels and Amsterdam on an annual basis. We're

co-funded through our membership -- what do we do?

   We support and then house the performance of the hotlines. So we try

and share best practice, training modules to improve the effectiveness

of the hotlines. We also are take down and -- content as quickly as

possible. We assess -- take down and monitor, and we've got working

partnerships with law enforcement and Internet centres around the


   So why are our statistics important?

   And we collect accurate statistics to be able to pass through to

stakeholders. We provide actionable intelligence and report leads, we

build a global picture of what activity is going on on the Internet,

illegal child sexual abuse material and we give fact actual information

to the stakeholders on the trends and the data.

   We developed our own in-house database, which is called the HR -- and

for the hotlines too.

   And now looking at the role and the process, we've got 44 hotlines,

150 analysts that assess content, trace -- they deposit -- they see

some -- into the database, so play back information. And then we

liaise with law enforcement and take-down issues. And they notice the

content on the Internet.

   We -- one of our objectives is to reduce the time that the illegal

content is on the Internet.

   So one of our goals is to move as quickly as possible much so it's

all about closer participation of stakeholders.

   Strategic alliances are very important to us. So if you look -- I'm

not going to move through all of these many but you can see from the

slide, we've got a lot of strategic partnerships in the industry.

We've -- with government, with NGOs.

   Now, this part of the presentation, showing you some statistical data

and actual statistical data on the first challenge with material so

hotlines are for a variety of agreements on a national basis. But

typically what we look for is hosting in categories. We consider --

pornography, and child sexual tourism, child trafficking. Violence,

racism, and xenophobia, and also terrorism. The hotlines do offer a

broader categories than -- in some respects. But those are the common

categories that all association members and -- relate to. Statistics

so far, we have had 47,000 public -- suspected illegal content.

   And this graphic is showing you where that content's going from

currently. So 40 percent of it is coming from in EU and 42 percent

from the U.S. and Canada, and 18 percent the rest of the world.

   Really interesting data.

   And so looking at trend data. So worrying development is increasing

incidence of very young children as victims. We've got age category,

and based on the findings, 12 percent of victims are infants. And this

last year was 9 percent.

   79 percent of the victims are female. 11 percent are male.

   And this is a graphic that we've got in our own report. And shows

that data. I will be able to read.

   And also it's commercial and -- hosting. And when we say commercial,

that means a financial transaction is taking place. And it's about 11

percent of new volume. It's huge. So this is another slide that we

produce for the European finance coalition. This shows the trend data

in commercial hosting by country on a global scale.

   So network action -- which is really interesting data. 34 percent of

commercial and -- 34,000 reports have been put into the database of

commercial activity so far. That represents 94 -- 95 percent of global

hosting. So we're capturing the data. This next slide actually gives

you the hosting countries. And as of those dates, and then looking at

non-InHope and hosting countries.

   So you can see that we can start and put together a global view. We

see something hosted, and it gives us the opportunity to be able to

take that data down.

   Hosting trends is just as -- gives you a flavor of the hosting

trends. We've taken three countries. And how they're mapping for


   Then as I said earlier, notice and take down is very important to us.

So we -- we monitor this closely. And each one of our deliverables is

to be able to improve this area. So you can see that we're -- majority

of the illegal content is being removed within a day. This gives us

the trend data. So content removed in a day is improving. Which is in

the target, to try and remove all this data once we see it within a


   This is very interesting data. So this is looking at particular

country, and their ISPs. And so the data on the left, the ISP on the

left, has been cooperating closely with law enforcement. So if you

look at the 32 percent of their content being removed in a day, 24

percent within two days. So you would say that this ISP is cooperating

with taking down illegal content.

   However, if you then look to the far right, you look at an ISP that

actually has been notified of illegal content, they still got 57

percent of that still up and running after five days. And indeed, 38

percent is not removed at all.

   So that would be an area for discussion with law enforcement. Not

for InHope, but for law enforcement to talk to the ISP why they have

not removed that content.

   And the main trends that we can look at. So we can identify

partners. So with this, the light green is showing you traffic within

the domain. And it dies in July. But then the light blue, appears --

what's happened here is the domain name has changed. So we talked to

the hotline, and they've identified that -- where the traffic's moved

to. And if you look at that on a live issue, what this is showing is

within two and three month periods, the domain's moved country, they

also move ISP. So we can give that trend data to our stakeholders.

   The notice and take down is an area of real importance to us. And

it's by working closely with the law enforcement we can improve that.

   So this is a live example that the European hotline that is now

working much closer with the law enforcement, whereas it was taking six

days to take the content down, now they're talking much -- on a more

collaborative basis. That content was removed within a day. And that

is great news.

   And that concludes my presentation. Thank you.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Russell.


   >> ANJAN BOSE: If anybody would like to point -- or have any

questions related to his presentation, very quickly if there is

anything that you want to add or to ask him.

   Year data was very interesting, and particularly the ones that still

remains up after five days. And I think when John leads us to the

discussion, this could -- This can be some of the facts that can be

brought over. Our challenges and solutions.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: So do we have any one -- yes, please?

   Please introduce yourself.

   >> BLASHMAR: My name is Blashmar, an academic from Norfolk


   Just the question on the backwards state categories you mentioned.

You mentioned access to children. But adult porn access to children.

Particularly is upset with adults and --

   >> RUSSELL CHADWICK: Yes, it is. There are the hotlines have got

much broader categories. And when we research the common categories,

those were the 13 that we've got.

   I can give you the data offline. In terms of how we get that, those

categories. The majority of the content is see some -- child sexual

abuse material. We do track terrorism, but it's not a huge amount. I

think some of that hotlines have got 26 categories.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: So our next speaker is Susie Hargreaves from IWF.

She will start with a video, a very short video, that gives you very

comprehensively what they're doing.


   >> ANJAN BOSE: Can you hear?


   So -- okay. It worked in the morning; right?

   >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: I'll just talk.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Want to try again?

   Yes, we did, but -- okay. I'll try again and if you have your head

set, you can probably put it in.

   (Audio volume inaudible in video)

   >> ANJAN BOSE: I think we probably revert to hearing from the house


   >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: Thanks very much I'm delighted to be here. Our

work has new members of the Dynamic Coalition. Thanks for inviting us

to join. We work with a lot of people in this room. Increasingly we

have a lot more global presence. I did have videos from the IWF.

They're on memory sticks, but I think every single member of law

enforcement has taken my memory sticks, so obviously not to give --

sorry, I can't show that video. It's up on our website, explains what

we do. The IWF is the UK hotline for enforcing criminal content, child

sexual abuse content anywhere in the world, nonphotographic content in

the U.K. and seen other content in the UK. 99.9 percent of what we do

anymore is child sexual abuse content. So the -- the video kind of

explains how we work. And just to go over some of the key areas.

We're a charity in self regulatory body, entirely independent of law

enforcement. And the governments and we're funded by the Internet

industry. 80 percent of our money comes from industry. 20 percent

from the EU as we're sort of the UK Internet centre. National and --

   We're very interested in government's point view because we are self

regulatory. We have no powers to enforce the Internet industry removes

content voluntarily.

   We -- we are one of the most successful hotlines in the world in

removing content in our own country. Content in the U.K. is removed in

less than an hour. We've also worked very hard internationally so that

over the last 17 year, we've been able to bring down content that we

identify from 20 days to 10 days, which is still ten days. We're very

proud of that. In the U.K. we have an exemplary record. When we

started at 18 percent of content is down to less than 1 percent. U.K.

is down -- hostile territories to host child sexual abuse content and

that's because of the partnerships. We're very fast, quick, and that's

because the Internet industry cooperates with us 100 percent.

   So I will just quickly talk about some of the trends we see.

   Russell's talked about some of these trends. So what's the scale of

child sexual abuse, how many of them are out there the reality is know

one actually knows. And then we're going to talk about some numbers.

We're always quite skeptical about the number, we hear numbers that

don't particularly hear what we see but we don't see what other people

see. So we're not saying we have any definitive date on this as well.

What we can tell you is that the UNODC reports that there are a million

images in. What our analysts see is about nearly all images we see are

duplicates. They're recirculated images. And some might be 10 or 20

years old. And we see roughly -- it's not an absolute figure, but

roughly around 1 to 2 new children a week. The importance of that is

every time we see a new child we can safely say -- every single image

is a child that's been sexually abused is a crime scene and every

single image is unacceptable and needs to be removed. How many times

they're back up again.

   Type of content we see in 2012, 81 percent of that content was

children age 10 and under. 4 percent is under 2.

   That's actually down from the year before. And 53 percent was of the

worst kind in the U.K. graded 1 to 5. 53 percent was level 4 and 5.

Which is the rape and sexual torture of children, mainly involving an

adult and a child. In the U.K. the content that we see, we tend to see

of it as white men abusing white children, predominantly girls,

obviously increases in number of boys. And we see an increasing number

of Asian children as well. We're starting to see new patterns emerging

particularly in discussion with other sister hotlines, in South African

hotlines, starting to see black children being abused by black adults.

This was our experience as well when we went to talk to law enforcement

partners in Uganda where we have been doing some work. We're starting

to see new patterns emerge. Obviously one of the issues around the

Internet penetration developing in developing countries is that we're

starting to see new areas of child sexual abuse emerge from there.

   Just quickly tell you a little bit about -- Russell talked about

where the content was hosted. So I don't think I can talk particularly

about that. One of the things I wanted to talk about was the

importance of trying to stop people going there in the first place.

It's our experience from our research that the most likely people to

stumble across child sexual abuse content are young men aged 18 to 25.

And we'd like to start them going there in the first place. We've only

recently -- I have to say it's slow compare today other country,

introduced flash pages, so we have a blocking list for all content

hosted outside of the U.K. and from now anytime anybody tries to access

a URL that's on our blocking list, we now receive this flash page

warning telling them about the potential ramifications of what they're

doing. This is quite new thing in the U.K.

   Taken us about 10 years to bring in. We're in the particularly proud

that this has taken so long. But it has just come into play.

   The other -- the big issues for us in the UK -- big issues I would

say within the field are we have current situation is very high profile

in the United Kingdom. That followed we had a year of extremely high

public cases, what we call a Jimmy sable effect, a major permanent in

the U.K. being exposed as one of the biggest abusers of children of all

time. That continued and really peaked during the year with the two

murders of two young girls and the murder cases have been concurrently

for their murderers in the U.K.

   And they -- both of them were shown to have images of child sexual

abuse on their computers. And they have no previous records or no

previous link to it. And then they went out and murdered these two


   And as a result of that, the first time we caught a link was paid

between looking at images and actually going out and committing

absolutely horrific offenses.

   This races a huge outcry in the U.K.

   From the media, from the public and picked up by government at the

highest level in the Prime Minister has been taking it forward. To

give you an example of the extent of the outcry, in July 2012 we did 75

pieces of media, that was television, radio, news print. In July of

2013 we did 2,500. And we're a tiny little charity based in the U.K.

   So suddenly it's kind of totally gone right up into the highest --

you know, not just the highest echelons in terms of how but in terms of

public perception. It's a really big deal in the U.K. at the moment.

The scale of the problem is really big. We might be greater in doing

it in the U.K. at doing this but we have to tackle it internationally.

We're concerned about self generated content. Seen more and more self

generated content from young people, particularly teenagers. One of

the issues for us at the IWF, if we cannot verify their ages it's

impossible to take action. That's some scenario we're working on to

see how we can protect people in the 15 to 18 age group.

   And another big area is obviously peer to peer much we only deal with

what's out there in the public domain. But a very big issue is the

issue of sharing content on peer to peer. And I've just been given a

warning. Sort of talk about the big issues and the overall scale of

the issue in the U.K.

   And I think that pretty much captured it. So thank you.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you, Susie. I think both of your presentations

speaks of the need to address this issue, global issue. And that we

don't have the ability in parts of the world. And I'm sure John will

in his session discuss the -- why we are doing this exercise, the one

that -- what it will lead us to. I think these are the other aspects,

that the type of abuse in the -- the scale of the problem, and why we

and the policy-makers needs to pay attention to the problem.

   So thank you very much for sharing the trends and information about

the reports that you receive.

   With that I pass it on to Linda Sharma. She's going to present the

work of the financial coalition and how that's going to -- the impact

it has made and some of the ongoing work in relation to fighting child

sexual abuse materials. Thank you.

   >> BINDU SHARMA: Thank you, Anjan. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm

glad I actually follow Russell and Susan in their presentations because

they gave us an extremely clear overview of what the situation is

globally on the issue of child online sexual exploitation. I will

really zero in on just one programme, that is the commercial of of the


   I'm Bindu Sharma, I represent the international Center for Missing

and Exploited Children. I'm based in Singapore, and I have a colleague

here in the audience with me also who's here from the U.S.

   I will highlight one of our programme, the financial coalition

against child pornography, working towards eradicating online

commercial child pornography.

   As I said, I don't want to repeat what Russell and Susie already

said. We have seen figures they've presented. We realise the scope of

the issue is pretty dramatic. Few statistics coming in here, one from

the U.S. line, we received 1.9 million reports in 1998. And also under

the child victim identification programme we have huge -- analyzed more

than 90 living images since 2002. You can well imagine the gravity of

the issue. Cyber Canada, on the commercial side I would like to

highlight this one statistic here. Cyber Canada, the Canada reporting

mechanism, in 2007 to 2008, over a two-year period, reviewed commercial

ebusinesses online and identified 27 types of payment systems used. 85

percent sold memberships with regard to monthly payments ranging from

$4 to $490.

   And we all know as statistics put out by the UN, in the June 2010

globalization crime study. They suspect that this is -- industry

generates around 50,000 new images each year and it's probably about

200 million dollars EU.

   In Asia these are the kind of media headlines we see. I will zero in

on a couple of them here.

   Most recently, which has been most concerns to a lot of us here,

Anjan and I discussed it often. This case of the Swedish national

ordering on demand, online child sexual abuse of children based in the

Philippines. The payment mechanism used were extremely legitimate

corporate industry platforms like PayPal, credit cards. So that's

where the whole responsibility in the industry comes in on this issue.

   The other one I would like to highlight is a recent study coming out

of Australia. Where in the study reveals that it was done in Tasmania,

actually. They interviewed about 400 students on campus. And a good

percentage of them -- the study was found that 1 in 10 people believed

there was nothing wrong in viewing child pornography, not adult

pornography. So these are the young 20-somethings within our society

today, who because of the exposure of illegal and inappropriate content

and the availability and accessibility of it on Internet, have come to

believe that it's the norm. It's okay to be there and to watch it.

   So much for that. And I'll zero in on the financial coalition. The

background to that is it was launched in 2005 coming out of the scandal

in the U.S. where a PayPal account was being used to buy, sell, and

access child pornography. It was a piece of New York Times

investigative journalism. The way the U.S. reacted in a huge outcry.

The financial payments industry was called to the mat by the

congressional hearings and basically threatened with legislation unless

they did something.

   And that's how the financial coalition was set up in collaboration

with two organizations, the national centre for missing and exploited

children and the Internet centre.

   The one goal of the coalition is to really disrupt the economics of

this trade, to really make it unprofitable for people who use this as a

commercial ebusiness to be able to make money.

   Selling such images.

   As I said, we work with the national centres, our sister

organisation, the national clearinghouse in the U.S. around any issue

surrounding child protection.

   And what's unique with the national centre is because of

congressional mandate, it has law enforcement sitting with them in the

NGO working with them. And therefore they have great power toss

actually make things happen.

   If the financial coalition we work closely with one of the centres of

the centre, the cyber tip line. A reporting mechanism where public as

well as ISPs in industry can report in illegal content. I will skip

through this, but because of the fact that -- because of congressional

pressure as well as congressional mandate, the financial coalition in

the U.S. is an operational coalition where law enforcement sitting with

industry actually does test transactions to follow the money where

these -- to do a test transaction, to understand the business model of

these ebusinesses, e-commerce merchants. To follow the money,

understand the business model and disrupt the economics of it. I won't

go into the details of this. We don't have that much time.

   But I would like to share the referrals that come in to the cyber tip

line are not only coming in from the U.S. The cyber tip line takes in

reports coming in from everywhere. The figures represented here on the

screen, that's something I would really like to give a definition of

what we stand for because otherwise they're open for misinterpretation.

   These reports refer to -- the content is hosted by -- in the U.S.,

hosted on servers in the U.S. These figures represent the number of

individuals accessing or uploading illegal content, the uses in third

country that is accessing and using in U.S.-hosted site. So these are

figures from all different countries in Asia. Very often in Asia, when

I have conversations with governments, they say, no, no, it's not --

it's a western problem. And as Susie pointed out, at this point in

time the majority of the images that we see are of Caucasian children.

So Asian government's very comfortably say it's a western problem. And

these figures from the cyber tip line very clearly tell you that it's

an issue, it's a global issue.

   It's -- Asian countries where they have biggest -- what do these

figures report?

   These are the categories under which the reports come in. And child

pornography makes up over 90 percent of the reports that come in.

   Who's reporting?

   Initially it was the public. More reports were coming in from the

public. But increasingly as you see now, industry is stepping up to

the issue. And more of the reports are now being -- are coming in from

ISPs and technology companies and content hosts.

   Who's reporting?

   What's -- again, is very interesting is obviously when cyber tip line

was set up first, it was -- it's a U.S. hotline. Most of the reports

were coming in from the U.S. industry or U.S. public. Increasingly now

international reporting overtakes industry and public reporting in the

U.S. So it is indeed a global issue.

   So you know, those are the figures coming out of the work of the

financial coalition.

   In addition to that, the financial coalitions also over the years put

out three leadership pieces around merchant acquisition and monitoring

of best practices. Other best practices around trends, around online

crime. We also run a webinar for financial payments industry on child

pornography. Keeping child pornography participants out of the payment

system. The cyber tip line reports a 50 percent drop in the number of

unique commercial child pornography websites from 2002 into it.

   The other trend that is very telling is again it's coming out of the

cyber tip Canada where they -- where they went through a -- the

monitoring of these emerchants. We have seen a consistent increase in

the membership costs for these kind of websites. Really clearly

implying that the industry and financial coalition efforts are

effective in disrupting that. And therefore it's far more expensive to

access these sites.

   Who are our members?

   It's a broad swathe of the financial industry. In the Asia district

it's slightly more diverse so we have regional enforcement companies as

well as NGOs. And in the Asian Pacific I will highlight one of our

efforts which is the most recent effort. In just last month in

September. Prior to that first three years have really been looking at

creating a wellness centre level. But over three years having built up

a sufficient membership in the Asian Pacific, I held in New Zealand a

round table specifically around the issue. We came out of that round

table and -- I'll backtrack. Weed 15 law enforcement officers, we had

nine bankers, five technology and ISP representatives there. So it was

a true cross-section of industry, law enforcement and civil society.

We came out with -- from it with a working group, and I am currently

working with four banks in New Zealand and they are in agreement with

the fact and having conversations with law enforcement to really make

live accounts, payment accounts available to law enforcement to do test

transactions within the New Zealand domain to track these kinds of

e-commerce, to understand their business model and then disrupt it.

   And that's -- I can stop at that, really. Thank you.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Bindu.

   Any questions for Bindu, from the room, or any other panelists we


   I don't see any hands there. You did mention very interesting

points. I know I have been following the work of the financial

coalition. It's very promising that the industry is coming forward,

the bankers are moving forward.

   Maybe it can infuse some of the members here back in this countries,

how to get these opportunities going.

   And so with that I will flow to John, and to lead -- to lead us to

the rest of the session today on child abuse images as indicators.

   >> JOHN CAR: Okay. Good afternoon. My name is John Car. And I've

recently been appointed global advisor to -- international, you never

guess it from my accent, I am in fact British.

   And today we're meeting for the last time as the Dynamic Coalition.

In the future we're going to meet as the super dynamic, hyper

energetic, never-stop-moving coalition.

   And I hope at the end of this presentation you will see why.

   Now, I had a video to show you, but for the reasons we all now know,

I won't. What I will do is try to tell you briefly what that video


   It was an extract from one of our national TV news channels, ITN

news, that went out on the 28th of May this year. So not very long

ago. And the main person being spoken -- speaking, being interviewed

in this news clip -- by the way, if anybody wants it, the news clip, if

you let me know, I can send you a link to drop box -- sorry, sky drive,

where you can -- where you will be able to -- in fact I have it --

where you will be able to pick it up.

   Anyway, the person being interviewed in this video clip is called

Peter Davis. And he is Britain's top cop when it comes to online child

protection. He's the head of seal. And in the interview what he

basically acknowledges, that the British police are unable to cope with

the volume of offenders and the volume of images which they now know

with a great deal of certainty are actually being circulated within the

Internet and in the United Kingdom. And I'll come back to those

numbers in a second.

   The report of his interview. There's another video clip, which again

I would have shown if I could. But which again I'll send to you if you

want. And this video clip is from another news programme that went out

two weeks later on the beginning of June. And in that video clip you

see a man called Nick Moran, who is the head of the child protection

section, so to speak, of Interpol, the global police agency.

   And in that interview, Nick Moran basically says there is no police

force in Europe that is on top of this programme. He was being

interviewed by Euro news, but he might as well have said the world.

   The truth is that the volumes of images and the numbers of people

downloading and exchanging them online have outstripped the capacity of

any police force anywhere in the world to be able to deal with them by

conventional or traditional policing methods.

   Now, we've known this quite a long time. People on the inside.

We've been aware of this fact for ages.

   But never before have such senior police officers gone on the record

on TV and acknowledged it in public. And I think both of them deserve

a great deal of credit for their bravery in doing so. Because I'm sure

the reason they didn't previously disclose the true scale of this

problem was because they didn't want to panic the public or they didn't

want to, you know -- they didn't want to cause people undue or

unnecessary anxiety. And they probably thought that it was -- somehow

in the public's best interest for them to suppress this information.

   I think suppressing the truth very rarely helps in any debate. But

what is absolutely true is that you can't possibly have an adult

conversation about what you're going to do about a problem unless you

all agree what the facts of that problem are.

   I think now as a result of the these recent disclosures by Interpol

on the one hand on and the British police on the other, I think we can

all now begin to discuss and debate what it is in fact we're going to

do. Because even though we've heard about tremendous work being done

by InHope and the IWF and industry around the world and speak

specifically about Microsoft later on, whatever it is we've been doing

up to now, it's not working. Or it's not working well enough. We're

not matching the scale of the problem.

   And we've got a decision to make, if you like, as a -- as a

community, as a world community, or however you want to put it.

   Either we sit back and accept that this is the new reality, that it's

completely beyond the capacity of the state, and its police services to

deal with this problem, or -- and this is certainly the view at

international takes -- we try to up the ante and try to get more

attention and resources devoted to trying to deal with it.

   And that's certainly the proposition that I'm going to put forward.

   We have to find new ways to galvanize public opinion around this

question. Because unless we can -- if we can't find ways to galvanize

public opinion and get more attention focussed on this question, we

have no hope of getting governments to increase the efforts that

they're going to make and increase the resources that they're willing

to give to the police forces.

   Sorry, I just remembered I said I would give you some numbers, I'm

now going to do that. These numbers came out of the U.K. but I have no

reason to suppose the U.K. is madly different from anywhere else. Even

if you took the U.K. as a single stand alone example, I think what

emerged was alarming.

   This is what happened. One our children's organizations sent a

request, an official request, to every police force in gland Wales

asking the police force in that area to tell them how many child abuse

images they had seized inned period ended April 2012. In the time

scale that we were putting to, only put five police forces actually

replied to the question.

   By the way, they were legally obliged to answer the question because

it was under our Freedom of Information Act.

   Five police forces replied. None of them covered a major urban area.

They were all predominant forces that covered largely rural areas.

They had small cities in them, but they didn't -- it didn't include

London, didn't include Birmingham, Manchester or Leads. Covered

smaller population areas.

   These five police forces nonetheless reported that in that two-year

period they seized 26 million images in the different actions in which

they had taken during that period.

   I showed the data that we got to a professional statistician, and he

looked at the demographics of those five police force areas. And he

said, well broadly speaking it's not likely to be very different across

the whole country because the demographics of those five police areas

essentially representative of the population of gland and Wales as a

whole, and if that's true -- remember you're looking at populations,

probabilities within populations rather than necessarily level of

police activity alone.

   If that was true, that would suggest that in excess of 300 million

images would have been seized by police forces across England and Wales

as a whole during that two-year period. That compares with, you know,

7,000 images that the police knew about in 1995, which was like year

zero for the Internet.

   Now, just -- 300 million images is a very, very big number, it could

mean however, that only five guys did it. Because you don't know

exactly the volumes of each image -- of images that any individual

person who's arrested might have downloaded. But we do have a clue

about them. Because also during that interview, what the -- what Peter

Davis revealed was that the police had been monitoring the exchange of

child abuse images over a -- peer-to-peer networks in the United

Kingdom. And what he disclosed, again, very bravely, I thought, was

that the police had identified between 50 and 60,000 individual IP

addresses within the UK where people had either been downloading or

exchanging child abuse images.

   These were known child abuse images, of course.

   Now, just let me tell you, 50 to 60,000 people is a hell of a lot of

people. In no year -- in no year since records began in Britain -- and

that's 1998, for these purpose, in no year have the British police

arrested more than 2,500 people. What that mean, if you do the math,

it's quite easy, assuming there were no new crimes ever committed,

unrelated to child abuse images, the last person that the police

already know about today would not be arrested until 2032.

   So in other words, again, Peter Davis says this specifically in the

interview, we cannot arrest them all. I'd like to, he said, but we're

never going to be able to do that.

   The British prison system only has places for 91,000 people. At the

moment there are 92,000 people in those prisons. So even if we could

arrest them all, it's simply impossible to imagine what we would do

with them and where we would put them.

   The key point is to illustrate, again, the point I was making at the

opening, whatever we've been doing up to now, it's not working well

enough. And we have to find new and better ways of addressing it.

   What ECPAT International wants to do and what we hope one of the

things that will come out of this is a renewed coalition, a new

approach where we can all work together to try and find a way to push

this matter up the political agenda.

   And with the U N's new millennium development goals coming into view,

people are working on the propositions now, what international very

much wants to do is to get the UN millennium goals to accept as an

indicator progress in this space, how measured reduction in the volume

of images and the number of people involved in that.

   So that means getting hold of hard numbers. Because you will not get

a millennium development goal accepted by UN processes or the UN

machinery unless you can put hard numbers around it. And we want

people to work with us as ECPAT International to develop information

tools that will help convince the UN this is a realistic possibility.

   I'm very happy to say that I've spoken to police officers around the

world -- because we know it's not always obvious, is it, if people

start getting numbers about your real level of achievement or work,

it's always going to be welcome. What it means in effect that you're

becoming more -- your actions are being more scrutinized. I'm happy to

say in this particular case maybe after a little bit humming and

hahing, the cops get the message.

   If we cannot get numbers, if we can't get a better grip on the

numbers in this space, it's going to become increasingly difficult to

get governments to put money behind it. Because if we can't

demonstrate the -- in some way or another, it will never be perfect,

but there's no -- as Susie said, a lot of this activity you can never

be sure of the true scale of it. But there are bits of it that we will

be able to put together through monitoring peer-to-peer networks,

through collecting input data about the number of URLs that have been

reporting, through reports about the number of take-downs being

achieved. There are a whole range of sorts of numbers around that if

we can find a way to bring them together in an intelligent way, we

think we'll help shape the political agenda for this going forward.

   But it's not -- what we also want the new super dynamic, highly

energized, never-stop-moving coalition also to think about are a range

of our measures. Because that thing around the millennium development

goals and the numbers and so on, that's pretty -- a median to --

conceptually important but nonetheless it's not going to deliver in the

very short term.

   There are a number of other things that we want to see being promoted

more energetically. One of them is the greater deployment of products

like Microsoft DNA. Susie mentioned and I mentioned the role that

peer-to-peer networks are playing. Most of the stuff that Russell and

Susie were talking about earlier are reports that came from websites,

URL, content that was being found on the Web. There's very little

doubt in my mind that the bulk of the activity is shifting away from

the Web. The Web will always be important. We can never take our mind

off the Web. Because it is the most user friendly and easiest

interface to use.

   But there's no doubt at all that big volumes of illegal images of

child abuse are now shifting into peer-to-peer networks but also I'm

sad to say on -- let's talk about using inscription and that kind of

thing. Let's come to that piece later. That's the really, really hard

stuff. This bit is doable now. Through user -- greater deployment of

products like photo DNA. Maybe other companies will develop tools

similar to.

   Any may I don't remember cloud service provider, any major company,

in my view, that's providing any kind of public storage, whether it's

free or paid for, should be deploying photo DNA or a product like that.

   Because if they're not doing that, then they're more or less saying

we don't really care that much about whether people are using the

services that we're providing to store or exchange or distribute child

abuse in it. So very much at the core of this will be an eye on this

new campaign that we hope will develop -- will be things like that.

Splash pages were mentioned by Susie in relation to people trying to

access URLs with known -- where the address is known to contain illegal

images. We're also pressing for in the U.K. and international also

pressing for more, wider basis, is for the search engine companies to

get involved. It's all very well if a guy is trying to access the --

we don't think the search engine companies should be an easy route for

people to find a lot of child abuse, that type material. And we --

we're not -- we don't -- we don't know anything officially yet, but I'm

expecting good news on that front from several search engine companies

or at least the two most important ones in the near future.

   And so the other -- actually, we -- if I keep talking -- and I

certainly could, as you know -- there won't be any time for discussion.

   So one other project that we want the new super dynamic, highly

energized never stop moving coalition also to join ECPAT International

in is developing a lexicon and a lexicon actually -- that's -- I'm

sorry, I shouldn't use posh words, should I?

   A dictionary, of terms that are used in child abuse. One of the

wonderful things about ECPAT International, one of the reasons I'm

really happy that I'm going to be working with them much more closely

is that they are a global network. These guys have got feet on the

ground. And I'm going to get this number wrong. 75 countries? Sorry?

   That's it. 75 countries, 82-member organisations. That's a great


   The down side of that is trying to communicate fairly basic ideas in

the way that doesn't cause confusion.

   I mean, you know, we all know the arguments around child abuse

images, child sex abuse material, child pornography, bullying, there's

a whole range of terms that some of us use constantly that actually

don't translate into some languages at all. The concept is very

difficult one to express. And it's a constant sort of barrier and it

always getting in the way of some of the discussions that we all are

trying to have.

   Another of the projects that we're going to try and do and your

involvement or engagement with that will be very welcome -- not clear

how we're going to do it, but we're going to give it a go, develop a

lexicon we can publish. Anywhere in the world people want to engage in

the debate, there will be at one authority, reference point to look to,

to get some clarity about some of the concepts that we're going to be


   So there are a number of the concrete ideas that ECPAT International

wants to propose. We're not saying -- we're not asking for a vote or

for anybody to sort of start saying yes or no now. Think about it.

We're going to be in touch with you all in one way or another.

   And we think it's a great way to go.

   And next year when we meet, you'll be selling tickets in the hall for

people to get in. And we'll have to insist on the plenary room anyway

because that's the way it's going to be from now on, isn't it, Anjan?

   Okay. Thanks.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you so very much, John. And I think that was

very informative and giving us new thoughts to explore and move forward


   And I thank you for that.

   What we would like to do now is, you know, if anyone around the room

has any comment to this idea, the proposition that we have, I certainly

know that, you know, Jacqueline and Kim would be definitely interested

in, you know -- you are working on the educational awareness bit. But

in terms of the photo DNA that John mentioned, it's a technology

contribution to this effort.

   So any ideas that you as a member of the coalition can put forward to

advance this in your own capacity, in the way that you are linked to

the work, would be very much welcome.

   And any format that you can propose to us that works in terms of

exchange, in terms of maybe an online platform, maybe setting up a

format structure that, you know, we don't have to wait until the next

year's IGF to come and say, okay, this is what we thought. We got in

the proposition last year.

   I think what we can all agree on is if you think this is really a

good idea, if this is something that we need to do, to express your

thoughts and opinion either now or, you know, offline. So we really

would value your engagement. And we can only do it collectively. We

need the support of all the members here. So it's just an appeal.

   And as John mentioned, next year we probably would have a way to --

even before we come, we can identify other issues that we need to plug

into this.

   One of the things that we always struggle is how do we make our voice

within this room visible to the overall participants here at the forum.


   We know we are being transcribed. This will appear in the

publication. Probably six months later. And probably .01 percent of

the participants will have a chance to read it.

   So we do really want to make a difference through this coalition.

The reason why you are here, you are all very, very prominent members

of the -- you know, of the coalition. And you are very, very prominent

members of the world in terms of the work that you do.

   So the urge here is to how do we make the participation count and to

make a difference, you know?

   And that's an appeal from us as the chair and so -- I see a hand.

Preetam, if you can share your thoughts.

   >> PREETAM MALOOR: Just a general thought, Anjan. We are making the

IT initiative page, as a platform for sharing information. And also

sharing tools, of course. So we would be happy to make that available

to the Dynamic Coalition and the core partners.


   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you for that kind offer. And we will explore.

These are the kind of contributions each member can bring in and offer,

both in the terms of the experience, in terms of the resources.

   Even when we go back, how do we take this issue to our own

governments, for example?

   Because it has to be replicated, it has to be reflected in the work

that we do.

   So I think we had -- yes, Jutta?

   >> JUTTA CROLL: I just wanted to pick up that point regards how do

we convince our local governments, our national governments to put more

resources into the work of law enforcement?

   I think that's also works, to have a little bit of exchange about

that topic much but that maybe could not take place on an online

platform. It must be more like a personal chat to each other. Because

I think it's not the problem that the government understands that there

are more resources needed for law enforcement, but once they say

officially there are more resources needed, that would be admitting

that there have been not enough resources put into law enforcement in

the first time. And that could not be done in the public or


   So it needs a little bit of diplomatic exchange maybe, and that could

also be point of an exchange to learn about the approach, strategies

that have been used in other countries.

   >> JOHN CAR: Certainly a very important strategy for us was getting

the police to tell us the truth. Without the truth you're hobbled. We

have a legal system. I think -- is there any country here that doesn't

have an official system for requiring public authorities to disclose


   We call it the Freedom of Information provision.

   So if the police -- if you don't know the truth about what's going on

in your country, it's very hard to go to the government, you know, and

just say, hey, we need more.

   Everybody -- anybody and everybody can say that. Otherwise you need

to develop your resources inside the police service to get the

information out.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Just to respond to John, I'm not many -- not many

countries in the developing region has this Information Act that forces

ultimately them to release the information to the public. But

definitely way to go. Yes, Jutta did say -- any questions?

   Thank you; Jacqueline.

   >> JACQUELINE BEAUCHERE: Thank you, Anjan. And thank you all the

panelists for some great information which is definitely complementing

a lot of the efforts we have underway at Microsoft.

   Just a few weeks ago we had a visit from COP, the Child Exploitation

and Online Protection Centre in the U.K. I would like to add a couple

statics to the record to what John said. In addition to the 50,000

U.K.-based individuals currently thought to be involved in sharing

indecent images of children, they also talked about 4 million indecent

images found in the collection of just one offender in 2002. And they

also talked about 424 child victims in a single case earlier this year.

   So that just goes to underscore the level of the problem at that

we're talking about here.

   What I can offer from Microsoft is we have, as John mentioned, our

photo DNA technology. We have a one-pager, what we call, available

online for those who are not familiar with the technology and how you

can evangelize it and hopefully use it within your countries, within

various organizations. If you would like that link, we can certainly

provide it.

   I'm also saying that we are always looking for new applications and

ways to extend and advance the photo DNA technologies much so please

share with us any ideas you might have in that regard. I can speak for

my colleagues in the digital crimes unit who own that technology, are

responsible for that technology.

   And finally, from a measurement perspective, this is something I

would like to put out to all of you on the panel. We have something

that Kim and I directly control called the Microsoft Computing Safety

Index. And it's a gauge of consumer online habits and practices at the

technical level, at something beyond the technical level, and then at

something at the behavioral and sort of information level.

   We do this survey every year in 20 countries. And since we control

that directly, we're wondering if there's any particular question or

item that we could ask people on a regular basis about child


   We would love to get that in there so we can track and measure these

statistics on an annual basis. So please think about that and let

us -- let us know what we might be able to inject directly.

   Thank you.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Jacqueline. I think that's very

interesting, and we will definitely be looking at that.


   >> JOHN CAR: A quick point about countries that don't have Freedom

of Information. There are ways of getting information other than that.

   But here's the point: If you walk around this conference, you see

everywhere people talking about the next billion Internet users.

They're going to be primarily in the developing world. So -- and all

of the evidence suggests that the problems that we've seen in the West

and in the northern hemisphere and so on will start to occur in those

countries as Broadband access begins to take up.

   The potential for it to do harm is obviously greater in countries

where the infrastructure available to law enforcement in terms of --

and the infrastructure in terms of social services and the education

and awareness aspects of this is just a huge, hugely different. And

therefore the potential for harm is that much greater.

   So one possible way, if we can establish some numbers and some

metrics on a global level at the UN and whereas international

institutions accept it broadly, accurate, that's going to help in any

of the other countries where they haven't got concrete information from

their own national police services.

   >> BINDU SHARMA: I absolutely agree with you, John. In all my

conversations in the Asian region, the extent of the issue in our

country, and I have no data.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Is there any question from the floor, any more

question from the floor?

   Okay. Yes, I would -- pass the floor to Susie for her comments,


   >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: In relation to supporting and resourcing the

police, I think one of the -- slightly worrying things that's coming

out now, I think in the U.K. is that there seems to be -- every problem

seems to be why isn't an industry paying for it?

   Every single time you get politician, or you know looking at the

issue, they say, well, industry should be giving more. Microsoft has

money, and Facebook, and all the rest. And actually, it's really

important to be clear about what is police business and what isn't

police business. And what the police -- what should be funded properly

directly from government and what shouldn't. And I think that's

becoming a bit of a worrying trend in the U.K.

   John might...

   >> ANJAN BOSE: That's a very relevant comment, Susie.

   I think with that we have closed right on time. And thank you all

for your participation.

   We look forward to staying engaged.

   Bindu has a closing comment.

   >> BINDU SHARMA: I wanted to highlight one thing. John said let's

not talk about the dark side. If I can skip back about three or four

slides --

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Just -- can I intervene?

   What he said was -- I mean just to translate --

   >> BINDU SHARMA: On the peer-to-peer exchange. And not talking

about drop box. The Asian Pacific coalition -- that's -- thanks, John.

   In last year I ran a technology challenges work stream within the

coalition in Asia. We had five industry partners work with us. And

we've just in last two weeks put out a best practices to help file

sharing and file hosting companies fight of the distribution of child

exploitation content. So we really tried to put together -- it's a

short ten-page document, just to put together industry thoughts around

how can we deal with this issue?

   So I just wanted to talk about it. It is a first -- it's a start.

So it is out there. And it's available on our website.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thanks very much, Bindu. I think we did what John

alluded to, is that we do cover state by state and first things first.

But we do know that these are emerging issues that we do need to get

into. And thanks for sharing that information.

   >> BINDU SHARMA: I just want to say that we have taken a stab at it.

That's a start.

   >> ANJAN BOSE: With that we close the session, and thank you very

much, all, for your participation.


   >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you.

   Before you all leave, I just, you know, want to acknowledge the

presence of -- Junita Upadnayay, are our deputy director for

programmes, who probably you have already met individually. But just

wanted to acknowledge her presence today as the -- you know, the

manager from ECPAT International. Because all the discussions that we

are having here will actually help us to formulate our own programmes

and strategize it. Thank you for coming, Jeneta, and spending your

time with us. Thank you.


   This transcript is being provided in a rough-draft

format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) or

captioning are provided in order to facilitate communication

accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of

the proceedings.