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22 OCTOBER 2013



JC5 - WS 21 AND WS 302


This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.


     >> Hello remote participants you can hear me? I cannot hear you properly. Oh, okay. So, hello you can hear me? Hello? If you can write in the chat and also do you have remote panelists.

     >> Yes, we have remote panelists.

     >> They're coming to -- hi. Just one thing if you can hear me, Kevin, just if you can, mute yourself because we are going to get noise conflict. Every time you want to speak, then unmute yourself. And to mute yourself you have to click on the microphone sign next to your name. Is that clear? You can hear me? You know I think you should be in charge of this one. Excuse me. I had to mute you because we're going to start the session. As soon as you want to speak, I will unmute you and you can speak okay? Thank you.

     >> LOUIS POUZIN: Good morning. Good morning this is Bali. Workshop 302 Four Tiers of Multi-lingualism. As usual, we have some technical glitches. And in order to establish the connection with Webex. But it seems to be now operating. My name is Louis Pouzin. How is reception on the remote sites? We have to make a little bit of shuffling in the program but we don't have yet the connection with Africa. So as soon as we get them, will they perhaps interrupt this presentation because African connections are hard to obtain and if we get them we have to move right away to their presentation. My name is Louis Pouzin. I'm with EUROLINC using native languages in the Internet. So as part of this workshop I would address specifically the problem of using any kind of names and scripts in some critical aspects Internet which is domain names.

Specifically the -- names. You know there has been some tricks called IDN but that's not sufficient for multi-lingualism. So presentation will be in the what I call multi -- if you think of phone directory it's a book in which you look up names, people's names or organizations' names and in front of that you find a telephone number. On Internet it's same principle. You have a book called a directory or technicians or geeks call it DNS, domain name systems, in which you send a query, the query continues the domain name and DNS answers with IP number, IP address. It's just the same process as looking up a phone number in phone directory. But the problem we have with DNS and Internet is that it is a unique system which is managed by a company or managed actually which is supervised by a company call ICANN and this is defective Monopoly like all Monopoly you can not obtain everything you would like to have.

So, the DNS itself was designed in 1982 and 1983. In other words it's now about 30 years old, even 35 years old. But in our world, anything that is 35 years old is absolutely obsolete and it needs a lot of improvement to make it appropriate for the world as we know it now. It is -- structure like any file system, for example, Unix or Lenux or most systems are based on that principle. It's physically in different places In other words it doesn't have to be in a single place in the world. It's distributed but logically it's a single system. And the only function it has it's you send query with a name, URL, and you get IP numbers in return. And the strange you can use in URL is limited to ASCII nothing more. ASCII. And sub ASCII you only allow letters digits and hyphens, that's all.

Hyphens that's all. If you look at the it system it's central Centralized in the United States and the name I said ASCII. You have no -- because in this book in this directory all names are unique. If you have several which is the same name ISOC is Internet society. For five different companies called ISOC in the world and probably more. Now the safety of the system is, of course, limited because it's under units Government administration and they can very well say information which is part of that directory. So jurisdictions of ICANN is based in California. ICANN is based in California which means it's not easy to have -- with them and the cost is not based on cost it is based on probably what the need for ensure the comfort and those costs are not justified.

And on the other hand and furthermore, you can only access the sites which have been reporter recorded into the ICANN directory. As we'll see there are more sites which is not in the ICANN directory.


     There is another part of the Internet which is a little bit like the face of the moon. Hidden face of the moon. It's not visible if you look through the ICANN directory. For example, there was a .biz which was operational back in 1995 I believe. It was a private company. And actually, when ICANN introduced dot Biz they snatched that name from the other company. You can find this story within Wikipedia and usually, these separate directories are producing addresses for their own director and for the ICANN directory In other words they're limited to a initial one plus ICANN because ICANN is major directory for the Internet which is uncomfortable if we could not access through it.


     But those alternate DNSs duplicated by ICANN. They're not supposed to exist. What we are targeting is diversity, first Monopoly not the way -- we need diversity and options and need competitions. At the moment doesn't exist. We need only -- some companies may have the same name and people maybe have the same name and in a world of 6 billion people, you cannot handle everything if every name had to be unique especially with a lot of language wants and scripts and like any huge connection of entities with names of people and organizations we need to have sort of an organization and table of contents whereby if we look for travel, if we look for health, if we look for music, if we look for sport, we should have some kind of an information to be able to speed up to make it easier to look through this directory.

And this is what we need at the moment. This is what doesn't exist and we need to access all Internet sites, not the ones -- not just the ones recorded within ICANN directory. Of course, we need a continue use connection to ICANN directory and on the other hand there is no reason why every directory would apply the same part for privacy and -- policies for privacy and for tariffing and say additional services for example, if they want to provide help for filtering information for children, for example, well each directory should be able to introduce its own policy the way they think is appropriate for their customer base.


     One thing that usually directory does not do is hosting information like a database or like facilities like e-mail or like chats or like what we do at the moment, video conferencing. Well, that's up to them. But, this is not typical of directory at the moment. So anything should be in a way in created or defined according to the particular -- or user base directory. Now how do we access to that? At the moment, if you open your browser, you click on a name. You get connected to a host, A site, A Web site in our system or something else, but, you, even though you don't know it, you are using only the ICANN directory. It's part of the parameters which are located in your device in your PC, smart phone or something. Or, maybe if it's not there, it is in the ISP, in the configuration.

So even though you don't know it, it's only the ICANN parameters. So what we think we should have is the ability to use any parameters we want. In other words, we have independent net SERVER for that. Each directory should have a collection of name SERVER so they can access their own directory. Now, the way to organize that is not that complicated. If you organize directories within your equipment, well, you probably would put priority over the ones are you using the most often. And occasionally you have a second line of second block of addresses or second block of information that you look into it. And nothing really new. It's typical way of organizing information when you want to retrieve it. Now, this, of course, can be customized by different users. They can do it for themselves for a company, for example, which has its own private DNS or own private directory could well organize access to the information if a way that pass it ill takes that employers and employees.

Now, just to give you an example within windows which is a very common system at the moment, in windows, there is one particular place in the network parameters which is called TCIP properties. How to find that, of course, is a little twisted because everything is twisted with windows. But it's on MAC computer it's much more simple to do. But the trick is you look up the addresses and the bottom of this slides you will see two addresses which are two IP addresses. Jug the addresses of the directory that you use forcing access to the web sides -- forgetting access to the Web sites and you can put in there whatever you like. You can either let them as you find them or you may change them to other directory which are your personal preferences. Example of that, HTTP, CWU.

It exists but it's crossed out. But this site which is actually dot Commonwealth which is long to write we have short time CW.CW you will not find in ICANN it's a newsletter. Another for example is newsletter for the Adastra of Ugri it's a part of China -- I'm not sure how to pronounce that, which is not clearly -- Pemora. Arabic kind of people so in a way they're just more isolated so they have their own site which can be used from all Yugo people scattered around the world and this, for example, is music clip. Another example is -- party in Germany they are their own site and own directory so they use it for organizing meeting and disseminating -- on their programs and so on. That's not part of ICANN. Now Chinese university, Chinese university which is accessible in Chinese, look at the right-hand side of the slides.

You have a domain name which Polish Chinese can understand I'm not expert in that, but this is something which again you will not find if you only are using ICANN directory. And another case is UK university. UK is recruiting, trying to recruit students from China so that they of course have to write things in Chinese if they want to find what they're looking for. So they publish and of course have to access to a site which is in Chinese. So that's the obvious extensions we need in Internet is something we need customized to people for one thing and independent from a Monopoly. I would say at the moment you know about NSA and spying and so on. So if it's independent from the UFS it's even better taken has to be -- that's measure of thing it has to be in the language of the people who are using Internet. And this language can be any of the perhaps I would say 6,000 languages which are spoken at the moment around the world but at least a few hundred languages that's a minimum and that is possible technically.

If it's not available, it's because it was not been appropriately addressed. So conclusion, you know, this type of approach allows to make systems available for one case companies which are trying to get new TLDs and NTLDs which have their application refused or suspended or people who are -- want to create a new ecosystem based on different themes and different languages and it can be localized, districted in script and it's absolutely low cost, as compared to official costs from ICANN directory. It's extremely -- it's magnitude cheap are you know? So that's example also of what we can do with Internet today as it is you know, doesn't require a lot of investment or research. It's available. And we have a booth in the corridor next door called EUROLINC or open stand number three just right to APC.

Thank you.

     >> Next.

     >> Africa, is Africa on-line?

     >> No. Hello? Hello?

     >> There's no video in this room -- I'm speaking from Bali. Is this better?

     >> Now is the right time.  

     >> Thank you. Welcome everybody. I'm glad to be able to -- we have video today so I don't know if it would be possible to process the video today. Anytime way, -- is a project funded by international -- so the first question that we have and presentations we could make is why -- and I think for two main reasons. One is that we would like to present unique experiment of -- on-line -- and content on-line to learn to improve French but also to communicate with our own language and interface with French. And communicate with web video. And new content for -- and the second have that this is quite unique experiment as we have social connectivity for new population of -- minority including Belgium, also -- and this is quite new and important as it could lead part of our activity to different -- different communities of the web and to promote diversity and -- underway.

Some of this was considered very -- and in particular for cost of proposal -- French -- and so we are now in the middle of a project and we connect regularly -- Eastern part of -- Poland, Romania, Georgia and also Belgium and France and the project -- several months from now with major festival of content -- in Poland. Thank you for your attention. Now, if possible I would like to give the floor to my colleague Kevin which is in -- a big city near Brussels and he's in charge in particular of -- scholastics of Semantis and we would be glad also to answer your questions if possible. Thank you. Kevin are you available?

     >> Yes, I am, thanks. Hi, everyone. My name is Kevin -- I live in Yez and I work for the non-profit organization -- which means the world of possibilities. My job there is -- future so we provide French and computer -- and Latin and -- migrant which is quite -- in the Semantis program my job is -- which means that I have to and I work with teachers too and my job is to collect -- and put them on the platform you know enable to gather everything together and these platforms are new and -- is redirecting to some skills, specific skills that are isolated and so that we can rely on specific skills with creations of -- Semantis -- in the form of Ministry. I don't -- thank you for your attention. And I turn it to my colleague.  

     >> Thank you, Kevin. Simply I would like to mention now our objective in IGF mission I think we'll try to provide small contribution because we're small project and organization but in fact it is quite unique we can provide experiment of -- languages on-line with content producing content for a new generation of connect to the young and maybe provide something specific and language with French -- that could be useful for a lot of project concrete project on the ground because we speak several languages Polish, Romanian, -- and sound and it is quite unique. It was based on very successful experiment in the city of -- which is called wept not more in fact it's tradition of -- by young people, migration integration in -- and it has been very successful to learn to ICT and also to learn French because my grabbed son and child where in order to produce -- in the face between them and parents and present in the -- of the day and that's what we would like new experiment and go further in the project and into the next month and maybe years and prevent it -- thank you.

     >> OLGA CAVALLI: Hello. My name is Olga Cavalli thanks Chantel for managing the workshop. We usually organize this workshop every year at IGF and what we've been trying to do through all the years we started in Sharm El Sheik is to review the content availability of some languages and we had several focus one is Spanish, how it's evolving in the Internet and other issues are related with native and American languages and regional languages like -- or some other regional languages and we have found different things which we think interesting and we want to share with you our focus first on Spanish which is my mother tongue I live in Argentina and I'm university teacher and I also an advisor to the Government of Argentina. Although I teach technology I'm an engineer. I got interested in languages because we realized that having relevant and good content hosted locally that could be that people could access locally would enhance --

     >> I don't think you have 119 --

     >> OLGA CAVALLI: Sorry that was not me. We could enhance manage of traffic and I will go into details about that in a minute. So, I'm talking about Spanish. Spanish is the one of the -- it's second language spoken in the world after Chinese. So it's fairly widespread. Which is very convene if you are native speaker wherever you go in the world there's usually someone who speaks Spanish especially in American continent and also United States. United States will become the biggest Spanish-speaking country very soon in the near future which is remarkable because Mexico and Spain are very important in the language and also rest of Latin America. For example Wikipedia there's 1 million articles in Spanish and more in French 1 million and a half 1 million and 600,000 in German and one million in Italian. If you compare Spanish with other languages, the amount of articles in Wikipedia is extremely lower.

If you compare with amount of native speakers that my language has. And if you go to content for Web sites only 5% of content of Web sites is done in Spanish. And Internet uses by language only 8% are from Spanish native speakers. So, and the same time, as I said before, Spanish is second spoken language with more than 400 million people all over the world, spread all over the world. So, there are two reasons which we find important to create local -- relevant, local content in Spanish. First, because people have access to the content. Not everyone speaks English, French or German or other languages to access relevant content to make, for example, an investigation to study or to find interesting information about something that they are trying to understand. But at the same time, there is a relationship in between the prices of access with content.

75% of the traffic of Latin America goes to North America to access content. So this means that we pay in Latin America every high amount of price for having this Internet capacity links to connect with north America and from there to Europe and other parts of the world. So if we could have more content locally, hosted locally, this amount of traffic going outside of the region would be lower. And we would have to pay a lower price for international connectivity. And that would benefit the price -- final price that the user pays for the access. So this is why we find there are two aspects related with local content. One is that people can access that if they only speak Spanish and at the same time we're helping people paying less for their final price for accent. So these other two social security inspects that we see -- these are the two aspects we see.

What we've done it's not easy to contact relevant content there's a lot of information in Spanish but not really not really -- level or something relevant. So we started experiment in one of the University which I teach. I teach Buenos Aires in the Ministry of -- and diplomacy career where I teach technology we started a project called Wikipedia project we started to create articles that have academic level and subjects related with technology in Spanish related with Argentina or with Latin American region. And the project at the beginning was a little complicated but then -- hello? Okay. And but we were very successful. There were a lot of new articles that I could share with you by e-mail or by -- on the web if you're interested in, so, those articles had -- we wanted them to have academic levels so they were reviewed by teachers of the career and then once they were reviewed and approved, they were uploaded by the students into Wikipedia.

This caused two things. They were very proud of their products and at the same time the content they produced was relevant and good for other students and at the same time it was stuck in a pile of paper that then you finally put in the trash one way or another. So, just by finishing, I would like also to share with you that there are other interesting projects. We don't have time now to share. But there are other interesting projects in trying to use the Internet as a space to keep and to promote content of languages which are not spoken by so many people like Spanish or sometimes endangered and I would like to mention project of people from Catalonia they have created this -- the only thing they request when you register a name or dot CART. Content is relevant dot cart and Government of the -- country is promoting the use of -- in the Internet and Microsoft and Google are producing several programs and applications that are in several languages including especially Microsoft, applications of office and other tools that are written in native American languages.

Thank you so much for letting me share with you these experiences, thank you.

     >> CHANTEL LEBRUMENT: Anybody else? Any questions? Sir?

     >> I have a question my name is Andrew Sullivan. I want to return to the first discussion of the domain name system and internationalization of it because I was a little confused. I'm not sure why the existing changes to the DNS, IDNA are inadequate to solve the internationalization problems there and there's two issues I want to separate in this discussion the first is, the control over the root zone the very top of DNS which necessarily because of the mathematical structure of DNS as a tree has to be a single root. If you think you have a second root what that means is the root is above it. And then more generally, the expression of those names throughout the tree, which of course are not under the control of the top level. If you can say more about why DNA is inadequate I would appreciate it.

     >> Well, it must be a single root at the moment for two reasons. One is it's because it's Centralized. It's just one tree. And that's the tree is usually has unique names in the tree. And that's a common configuration for any file system. But on the other hand, if you have several trees, you can have different -- same name occur at different places. And I think the example which justifies that if you take the trademarks. The trademarks are protecting stream or picture or something and they are unique only to the extent they are in one particular trade there may be several names several names in different trades and it can also be repeated same name may appear in different parts of the world because the protection is only defined for specific geographical regions so. Depending how you process the contents of the tree, you may use duplicate names provided the scope of those names is limited.

And in any -- I think in example for languages when you use a name it has a scope. I mean it's only valid in certain part of -- certain part of the software piece, the program. And if you want to have several names you use different scopes and those -- the Internet DNS at the moment has only a single scope. Every name unique in the system but it's just a special choice of the designers. They shouldn't be do that. Now why is it not practical for -- I think the example of -- the CCTLD in -- they normally should be in Silic and it should be dot -- I'm not sure how they put -- how they pronounce it -- but this is reviewed supposedly because it would be similar to dot BR which means Brazil. Or that's very speculative very subjective. So if that's the case even though you're not using the same string it's not possible to have that accepted in the existing DN S you know?

But if we use different DNS then we can have a name without any problem. It's just a matter for use to know what DNS he wants to use.

     >> Well now I really am confused so I want to pursue this a little bit with indulgence of the Chair. It seems to me DNS does in fact give you the scope mechanism that you want. And that is in fact that TLD string that label at the top level. So, it allows you to have, for instance, a different label Francaise and the same name francaise.CR and they're different names and the reason they're different they have scoping mechanism at the end it's hierarchal tree it's true in trademark database you have nationally scoped. But the reason you have to nationally scoped is because it's implicit. If somebody said how do I tell the difference between this Apple computer and this Apple, Apple records you actually have to look at the two things and say can I tell the difference between them. That's implicit scoping that you can then make explicit.

In DNS we do it by making it explicit all the time we have the full tree in entire name. So there's nothing about those labels further down in the name that have to be unique across the DNS. On the contrary the specifications for DNS are quite clear that sibling names can be repeated all the time it's once you get the full name all the way down you must have a completely unique name. Yes, that is true. But if you are saying, well, you could choose between this DNS and that other DNS over there, then you either very to have an explicit mechanism by which you say time DNSA or DNS  B or else you have implicit mechanism you're picking what they you were in all you did then was move the root up one more level it's another invisible level beyond what the user is typing but it is still a single tree and single root and at some point somebody will have to pick how you, you know,  which tree you happen to be in the you still have same coordinating function you ever did, you could argue it would not be ICANN it would be somebody else it's a different question.

You have to have a single unique root somewhere at the bottom of this tree and that's a fact about mathematics there's nothing -- this is not a political problem this a technical problem and I am extraordinarily frustrated to hear people claiming you know, more than ten years after I thought we had been through this argument, that you know this is merely a administrative problem. It's not. It's a technical fact of the Internet if you have hierarchy name space you have to have a root for. It if what you're arguing is we need different administrative root that is one thing. If what you're saying instead is, no, no, we need have this selection mechanism, then I want to hear a proposal for how you get that implicit thing that doesn't involve you know reinstalling Internet everywhere in the world because that seems to me to be really what you're proposing here.  

     >> What are you saying is something that makes the whole name unique I agree on that. If you take, for example, phone numbers they're unique. But you -- but users who dial phone for numbers, don't have to dial the whole set of numbers and hope that makes them unique (Louis Pouzin) they're in the scope or in a country or in a company or perhaps in a group of -- or a region of the world. In other words the user don't have to see the whole information that makes things unique. In order to make things simpler for users you only have to show them what makes them unique in a specific scope right and we have that functionality in DNS today that's what serve list Z when I type home.corp I get to -- because that's how it works. There's nothing technically weird about DNS in this context and I'm vexed you're proposing we need to reinstall this in order to improve.

It I am sympathetic to the questions of internationalization and I think they're important and I think they're important question. But there's a technical scope here which is simply, how would do you this? And then there's a second one which has to do with uniqueness problems you're talking about, for instance, the conflict between .DR people and Bagon application I realize it's come plated and in any given decision there's a political decision that is perhaps not the one we would desire. But I think it's important to recognize that that is different from the technical question of whether you could do this in a different way. I think it is slipping very quickly here he between you know technical facts and policy questions that I think one could have legitimate disagreement about and it's completely unclear to me which one of these you're objecting to.  

     >> LOUIS POUZIN: Well you mean it's political, yes it's political. And I guess that's you can't avoid that when you're deal with things that cover the whole world. Political issue cannot be ignored. So, people may want to do things different things in different places and seen though it may -- it does not look consistent with some part of the world. And this is going to you know this is going to last forever. But, second thing it's technical part may be implemented in different ways. That's not really complicated. So that again, is something that has to be devices as far as the demand appears. At the moment the demand for antonyms and synonyms no synonyms in DNS, are relatively small and on the other hand DNS is 35 years old. So, we think that in the next ten years, you will have to be revised completely.

Not just for people, app organization but also for things. Internet of things will require several magnitudes more names than we have at the moment in DNS. So in the future system things will be totally redesigned and we don't have at the moment to find the solutions which would be valuable forever. We only -- we are looking for solutions valuable for the next five, ten years. And that's not complicated.

     >> CHANTEL LEBRUMENT: No more questions? OLGA you said there's a lack of -- contents cost a lot because we're people as to connect to U.S. What about the cost? Do you have some details.

     >> OLGA CAVALLI: Yes that's a very good question. And you know, when you have more connectivity in between two areas the prices go down. Because of competition and it could be several times, for example, for the same capacity that you can buy from Buenos Aires to Miami which is most common international connectivity, then from Buenos Aires to Argentina, that you can have from Argentine, you can buy for the same price 50, 60 times the same more capacity between United States and Europe. So it depends, of course, but, the international connectivity to some parts of the world it's very expensive. For different reasons. One of the reasons is that there is less people in the south of world and you know, this services are fully connected, very urban, and now connected with market and with -- you have more market and you have more connectivity and you have more infrastructure and if you have more infrastructure you have more band with.

Having less land in the world it won't change and there's less people and less infrastructure. What we can change,  and we cannot move our country from the south hemisphere to the north that's impossible. And we don't want to. But, what we can do is to create and promote the creation of content that is locally hosted. So, the traffic remains in the region. Luckily, all the countries of the region are starting to try to get inter connected among them and this is fantastic for some country which are inland. For example, Paraguay and Bolivia those countries are not connected to international cables that got to the coast so the praise they pay for international connectivity is much higher than from Argentina and also, that would benefit rural areas of different countries, for example, some big countries like Brazil, Argentina, and Chile and for one side having the content is good, because people have relevant content in their own language this is the first barrier that you didn't have to face because you understand.

But the second one is that having more content lower -- it would lower the prices that people at the end pay for who you think that pay for the international link, people pays for that. Companies just don't just pats the price to their final user. And companies as well. So, this is why we think it's important. But it's remarkable why Spanish is -- there is not so much content in Spanish so we have to work on that if you compare with other languages we still have a long way to government so this is why we thought that our project of the university was interesting. It's very small. But it's one step at a time. If we all do a very small step then maybe we can do a difference.

     >> CHANTEL LEBRUMENT: Okay. Thanks, any more questions? Yes, sir?

     >> Andrew Sullivan again at the risk of monopolizing the Mic since nobody was standing in line, I appreciate the point you're making about local content. But I want to encourage people who are concerned about this, to promote and contribute to the development of Internet exchange points within their borders. And so, my employer is named Dina and we operate a fairly large DNS network around the world one of the places we have points of presence is in south America in San Paulo, significant portion of traffic originating in Brazil, still travels to Florida. And despite the fact that we are there. And the reason for this has to do with the interconnection between a person's ISP and the rest of the world. So if they're poorly connected inside the country or inside the continent they'll go outside of that environment even though there's something much closer and of course, from our points of view this say bad thing.

We're frying to minimize latency and we don't want to pie the transit either. We're trying to ensure that happens. One of the things we find is that some of the local network operators are not that interested in this kind of interconnectivity. So anything people can do to encourage within their national borders or continental or network topological error to make things travel more locally I'm sure you'll find content providers the world over will thank you because from our point of view, of course, we want to minimize that around trip time and all our customers want to as well.

     >> OLGA CAVALLI: Can I make a comment? I fully agree with you. I didn't talk about Internet exchange points just because it was not focus of this session and yes, you're totally right. Argentina has now more than ten different exchange points and you know very well that Brazil has much more. And although there are countries in the region that don't have exchange points in this is something we should help other countries doing and I fully agree with you and at the same time, sometimes it's easier for, as you said, for operators to go through Miami and Brazil, has kind of 0% of traffic goes through Miami. Whole Latin America, 75%. So there's several aspect I fully agree Internet exchange funds are good for that and for example, Argentina, Internet exchange points host for centers with conference Google, from Akamai.com and ICANN root server so it's not only exchange point for ISP but also -- very good place foreign stalling server that help manage the traffic very well.

Yes I fully agree with you it. It will take some time. What I find good countries at governmental level are trying to interest connect themselves. It's more expensive to make call or send information to PERU to Buenes Aires than -- make if we have a ring that connects all countries in south America, that may help. But, yes, you're totally -- I fully agree with you and thank you for the comment.

     >> CHANTEL LEBRUMENT: Anything else? Nothing? Nobody? Well, it's okay. I apologize we can't connect this morning with us because in Congo it's difficult to connect and this morning, Internet is down. In Congo. So this session is over.   You can talk to us if you want Louis Pouzin or Chantel and -- and we will make a report for the Secretariat. We've documents because we can't see all the -- we have to see. Thanks. Thanks for your attention.

Thank you, thank you. To the remote participants that were patient for us to solve all the problems. Thank you.

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    This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.

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