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FINISHED TRANSCRIPT

 

EIGHTH INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM

BALI

BUILDING BRIDGES – ENHANCING MULTI-STAKEHOLDER COOPERATION FOR GROWTH AND SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2013

11:00 A.M.

COMMONWEALTH IGF

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This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.

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   >> THE MODERATOR: Let's start. Otherwise we'll have timing problems. My name is Marc Crandall, from UK Government. And this is the meeting of the Commonwealth Internet Governance forum which I'm Chairing today. We have a bit of competition with the session on surveillance, which is just unavoidable scheduling issue but, I think it's important that we use this opportunity to review what's going on in the Commonwealth with regard to initiatives to review what's going on related to the Internet and the information, economy globally. Just to put on record, what the Commonwealth is first of all, it is a free voluntary association of 53 countries spanning from Africa, Asia, Americas, Europe and the Pacific. The UK is a member of the Commonwealth. And we've been supporting this initiative, the Commonwealth Internet Governance forum since it started three, four years ago really, as a means for providing kind of a central place for information about initiatives that are happening as a resource.

     There is a Commonwealth IGF Web site WWW.CommonwealthIGF.org and that is a repository for a lot of information and for the kind of practical initial of its that the Commonwealth IGF launched such as child protection tool kit which we'll hear about shortly the update of that. On the Web site there's a lot of information and linkages to other activities where there's a direct Commonwealth initiative and it's a valuable resource. The Secretariat for Commonwealth IGF is provided by NGO in MaltoCOM net and there's a colleague there helping me this session today. I think he may be trying to join us at the session. I don't know if he's actually managed to do that. But we have a very impressive panel of contributors, people directly involved in the initiatives we're going to review. And I think I'll just now start to progress through our agenda with regard to updates on those initiatives.

     I won't invite questions after each speaker has provided that update we'll save questions to the last part of the session. We have an hour and a half. There's quite a lot of information to get through. And that's the purpose of open forum like this, really, is to provide a lot of reporting and updating. But, I am keen to allow time at the end for questions and for some free discussion about the general direction of initiatives and how we can maybe take the Commonwealth IGF initiative itself forward and use more in the future. So we can bounce ideas across the room about that.

     When we get to it, the last part as I say. So, let's move quickly on then to the reports and to start off, I'm going to turn to Tracy Hackshaw to talk about the Commonwealth Cybercrime initiative. Tracy is deputy national chief information officer at the Ministry of Science and Technology in Trinidad and Tobago, and board member of the Commonwealth Cybercrime initiative. And so is directly involved in steering of this initiative and roll out of the projects on the ground and the stories a very impressive one. Over you to Tracy, to report back on how the initiative is progressing, thanks.

     >> TRACY HACKSHAW: Thank you, good morning everyone. So, the Commonwealth crime initiative or CCI as we abbreviate it, it's a program of the Commonwealth Secretariat and it's designed to provide Member States with coherent and sustainable assistance in building capacity to combat Cybercrime. It's a project that looks to arrange cooperation with a range of international partners. We're committed to extend support to Member States. We have over 20 partners right now. To assist these states in developing all elements of effective response to Cybercrime including prevention measures and establishing the appropriate legal frameworks and attending legislative, investigative,  technical enforcement and prosecutorial capabilities. Among those paters in we have ITU, UNODC, council of Europe. Do, OAS, ICANN, Interpol, the antiphishing WIKI group and many, many others. The marginal committee is chaired by the national committee of the UK and we represent several countries in the Commonwealth including Trinidad, Tobago, UK, and Sri Lanka.

     There's several life projects in the way. I'll give a brief to what is happening those countries that with have projects on the way. GHANA the DCI addressed communications of Ghana and was De Floyd February of 20 is 2. Subsequently a thematic report was sent out to Government outlining specific recommendations for fees to program of work. Further request letter was received from minister of communications taking on board the recommendations from the minister of communications and outlining CCI report requesting additional strand of assistance. April, 2012 M country project coordinator was identified. And the collaboration between open University of UK and Tugan institutions was set up to build capacity with Uganda and received two pieces of research specifically on E west in Ghana and cybercrime in Ghana, CCI between Ghana and ITU to set up CCIT which is currently underway.

     A CG -- is due to arrive in Ghana to assist with review of CGS. Formal launch with key stakeholders is scheduled to take place in early 2014. Uganda recently, July 2013 actually and subsequent submission of DT theme attic report, Ministry of information and counsel communications and technology in Uganda submitted further request for assistance taking on board recommendations as outlined in that report. Request for CCI connoisseur sum of next meeting 6 November 2013 where our member partner organizations indicate how and where they can contribute to fees of work in Uganda. Then expected start date of early 2014. In Kenya, the UNODC let -- supported for national crime agency of the UK in June 2013 reports of the submission were submitted to report of Government of Kenya and response is expected shortly by the end of this month, end of October.

     Response will also be placed before the consortium meeting in London on November 6 to indicate what resources are available to contribute to the project. It is extremely likely that fees to program of work will also commence early 2014 in Kenya and given the collaborative partnership that east African countries are teamed to each other we expect and hope that Kenya will collaborate with CCI to extend initiatives ruled out on regional level and we're looking at rolling it out through Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, and several other currency in east Africa. And Trinidad Tobego a request received from the ministerial -- of technology the CCI deployed a mission to them in July 2013 and tier reports outlining ten recommendations of fees to program of work were submitted to Ministry and response to this is expected in time for 6 of November meeting.

     And like with Kenya project, given Trinidad's relationship with the Caribbean it is expected and hoped that together the CCI and Ministry can collaborate to identify -- that can be implemented at a regional level. We suspect we will be very busy for the next year or so since we have received several project requests and formal extensions of interest from countries as diverse at Tonga, Banswada and Dominica and Jamaica. Once they're formally requested from the former channels, we expect to display a series of scoping misses between now and 2014 to assess current state of each of these countries and we hope that within 201 4 we'll be able to report successful misses and further programs of work in each countries as well as others we expect fees to work have started. With that, Marc, I think that's the report.

        >> THE MODERATOR: Thank you, Tracy for that very comprehensive account of how well established this initiative now is in terms of projects on the go. And indeed, there will be a report about the project, initiative, rather, at the Commonwealth heads of Government meeting in Columbo next month. And the initiative was endorsed by heads of Government at the previous meeting two years ago, and so, we're submitting a report on how the initiative is actually rolling out. And also, I might add, that the CCI was referenced in the next steps document that UK submit the at the Seoul cyberspace conference last week. There was a whole session of actions relating to cybercrime and capacity building and CCI was mentioned there and it was one of the key initiatives to determine need and identify opportunities for building capacity.

     So we got the initiative profile raised at highest level in SEOUL and again in Columbo at -- and it's in progress. Questions for that we can take at the end. Let's move quickly to child protection tool kit. This was first CIGF initiative. Practical concrete initiative. And it is now tool kit has been updated so I have two lead contributors to that initiative with us here. Sandra Marchenko, director of Koons Family Institute on International Law and Policy at the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children, ICMEC. And to my far left, John Carr, well known expert advisor on on-line child protection and he's a board member of European NGO Alliance for Child Safety On-line in eNACSO. And I think I turned first John really to the update thanks.

     >> JOHN CARR: Thanks a lot, Marc, it's great to be here in the Commonwealth setting. I can't remember the exact sequence of events how the particular bit got going. I think it started when the Commonwealth IGF were developing or talking about developing activity around the -- and they wanted to make sure that within the framework of certificate the question of how to deal with child abuse images and protection agenda was a significant part or substantial part of what the cers addressed. They came to me and to ICMIC jointly to ask if we could help write a tool kit and kind of recommendations for policy and legal changes that would help countries in the Commonwealth goat grips with this particular question. And I think part of this sequence of events was ICMIC just published the 6th edition or 5th edition of the periodical review or periodic review of states of play around the world with laws in different countries.

     And what was very striking and what I picked up as a Brit obviously more aware of the Commonwealth and our cousin as cross the Atlantic would be, what was very obvious when you looked at the list of countries that didn't have what wow call a satisfactory framework of legislation how many were in the Commonwealth. And that was another spur for developing this particular tool kit so. What the tool kit does Sandra will speak more about the specifics of the legal framework in a minute. What the tool kit does is it looks at states of play around the world And actually specifically brings out the states of play in each of the Commonwealth countries. But it also does more than that because it is meant to be an aid to Government it also provides a substantial kind of background into the whole question of what child abuse images are and what child pornography is and what consequences of sexual abuse for children are, and why you know the fact that kids are abused is bad enough.

     The fact in addition that abuse is recorded on a camera or video, and then broad cast around the world, adds substantially to the consequences of that abuse for the individual child.

    

     What the tool kit also discusses and this again is extremely relevant and important for the Commonwealth, is a sort of prediction, I guess, about the consequences of failing to Act. If you look at what happened with money laundering, for example, as several country around the world started to take action, against essentially criminal gangs who were involved in money laundering, what quickly began to happen was that the criminals started to move their activities offshore from Britain,  offshore from Europe and offshore from America and drifted to jurisdictions where either they're was little or no legal framework to deal with money laundering, or the local law enforcement community or local Government agencies didn't have the up from a structure to address. It well, exactly the same thing with -- is starting to be observed with child abuse images.

     As more and more countries in the developed world and in the western world are dealing with child abuse images on the Internet more efficiently and effectively we're beginning to see a drift of images into jurisdictions which perhaps things are not quite as they should be and what we were very keen to do was to alert Commonwealth Governments and Commonwealth countries to this fact in the hope that they could take early steps to avoid that happening their own jurisdiction. So, from a policy point ever view, I think there's quite a lot of really good analysis in the latest here. We had to update it recently because I think although facebook certainly did exist and various other social networking platforms did exist at the time we wrote the first edition things have moved on quite a bit in intervening two or three years and so we thought it would be useful to update the tool kit and I can't remember exactly when it was published not long ago, six months ago.

     >> SANDRA MARCHENKO: March, 2013.

     >> JOHN CARR: The new tool kit surprise there and there's a next edition of analysis and I'll hand over to my colleague now to discuss that.

     >> SANDRA MARCHENKO: Thank you very much, John. So as John mentioned my name is Sandra Marcenko. I work at the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children, we're NGO and based in United States and working 15 years now to protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation and abduction but with a particular focus on use and misuse of ICTs and crimes against children. So for the purposes of the tool kit, as John mentioned, we have been working for a number of years now on a report which we called child pornography model legislation and global review. In 2010 it was sixth edition included as portion of tool kit. We recently updated so we now have the 7th edition available and if you would like to see a copy, I can share that. The basic idea behind the model legislation, as we begun to see images of children sexually exploited images of children on Internet and more and more young children had become more heinous images more countries are not dealing with the issue of child sexual abuse images on-line.

     And we know there's more than 2 billion Internet users Worldwide and distribution of these images are unlimited. So in 2006 we want to take a look to see where the legislation in each country stood and where issue of child pornography was on political agenda each country and how they were addressing this particular issue. I'll photograph as that saying we use child pornography or abuse for purposes of the publication because it's more recognizable term for one but also it is typically term used in legislation. However, we are referring to the same thing. So, when we began the review, we were reviewing the legislation of the countries on five core criteria those were first to see if national legislation even exists in specific regard to child pornography. And if that legislation has a definition for child pornography and that is something separate from adult pornography and if it criminal les computer facilitated offenses and criminal les the symbol and knowing possession of child pornography regardless of intent to dispute and if it requires Internet service providers to report what they suspect to be child porn ago if I on networks to law enforcement or other mandated agency.

     So, the report itself the way it's structured has what we consider a menu of concepts instead of Article by Article language which is different than many model laws. In order to make it the most widely useable and adaptable for each country. It also continues a country by country analysis to we look at each 196 countries based on five criteria. When we released the first report in 2006, we found that at the time we reviewed 184 countries only 95 or 95 of those countries sorry had no laws specific to child pornography. And the many other countries the laws were simply insufficient. And at that time, only five countries met all five of our criteria.

 

    

     So as you can see, that's not very positive. Since then we used this model law to indicate for creation or improvement of legislation on child pornography and provide the model law as resource for policy makers around the world. We update the report every two years and take a fresh look at the legislation in every country and we contact each country embassy to verify the data we collected.

     The most recent report is the 7th edition published in March of 2013. So data collected went up through the end of 2012 and our new results show that out of 196 countries, 6 countries now have laws that are considered to be sufficient. That means they meet the first four criteria of the criteria we present. But 53 currently have no laws in place. So as John was mentioning that gives plenty of opportunity for criminals then to -- shop and look for country was weaker laws.

     Among the Commonwealth countries reserve showed 17 countries have no legislation still. 15 countries meet between 1 and 3 of criteria and only 22 have legislation considered to be sufficient to combat child pornography. Of that 22, 18 meet four of the criteria and only four meet all five of the criteria. And if you're curious, those four are Australia, Canada, India and South Africa and so the positive side of this data of course, is that we are seeing a growing awareness of the seriousness of the problem and of recognition of the fact that no country is immune from this particular issue. And slow, but movement forward on addressing the problem. As we looked at the span of research that we've done, since 2006 we found 100 countries either improved legislation or created and passed new legislation to address this issue.

     So 100 countries is significant progress. In the future we hope to turn to looking for more implementation to see how the legislation has been used and just for reference, this model law is available on our Web site in Arabic, Russian, Spain and English at the this time. I think that's probably enough on the model itself.

     >> Marc, Thank you very much.

     >> SANDRA MARCHENKO: Thank you, John, for setting the policy context and so son. And I get the impression that the numbers of Commonwealth Member States that are improving their legal environment and capacity is -- the picture is better yes?

     >> JOHN CARR: Going up.

     >> Marc And that figure you quoted 17 with no legislation, is that reduction on what two or three years ago.

     >> SANDRA MARCHENKO: I believe we were at 22 or so the last time we did the review in 2010, uh-huh.

     >> Marc Great. Thanks very much. Okay. Let's move on to the next report, which is Commonwealth telecommunications organizations report on its activities. Unfortunately the presenter for this, Lasand Oraes, from Commonwealth and CTO in London is not able to join us on-line. That was the plan. But, he had to -- a last minute class and was not able to do that. So I'm going to read out the notes that he was going to use and hopefully I'll be able to capture most points because CTO has been pretty active in the whole cybersecurity and cyber Governance area maybe as some of you know. This is one of the priority areas of the work of the work of the CTO and it launched program of work in this area back in 2007 when they took part in the ITUs global cybersecurity agenda at that time.

     And, as of this time, it's engaged in three specific activities. First of all, the CTO joined with ITU I in implementing child on-line protection, COP, the cop, in 6 Commonwealth countries, Cameroon, Gambia -- I shouldn't say that anymore, they now left. Sorry. But, Camaroon, Ghana, Mauritius, Nigeria and -- and it was launched in October of last year and the project is now being rolled out. So there's the COP, CTO involvement in the COP and then secondly, they CTO held the Commonwealth cybersecurity forum this year in Yunda, Camaroon hosted by Government of Camaroon attended by other 200 delegates including more than 50 organizations and the agenda covered various aspects of cybersecurity including critical information and infrastructure protection Internet Governance, cybercrime, multi-lateral legislative frameworks, CERTS, internet resources, cyber safety, privacy and crucially international cooperation.

     There was a joint workshop in the margins of the event organized by CTO and Commonwealth parliamentary situation ONCDAD on electronic commerce and cyber laws and there were parliamentarians there from other ten countries. So there was the cybersecurity forums. So that was second major activity they wanted to report here. And thirdly, the CTO has embanked on a project to develop a Commonwealth model on Cyber Governance based on Commonwealth values. This project was endorsed by ministers in Abuga representing CTO member countries and CTO governing council last month, 9th, 10th of October and following approval, by minister they will carry out consultations regional and bilateral to develop specific elements of this model of cybergovernance. It's important project for CTO.

     And they will submit outcomes of that to the Commonwealth ICT administers forum which being held in London next March, 3 and 4 of March at Commonwealth Secretariat marple house. So, in accordance with developing this model they will conduct a number of consultations relating to fostering Innovations and free doll of expression and understanding and promoting contributions to economic development, facilitating social interactions,  recognizing legitimate economic cultural and security concerns promoting multi-stakeholder partnership and Commonwealth consultations and international linkages. All these elements of this model are set out in documents called Abuja declaration of the proposed Commonwealth cybergovernance model. And this was really in recognition that a lot of work needs to be done to bring the strengths of Commonwealth to bear on the governing of cyberspace. The UK and others will be contributing to this project. So with that, that is CTO account of their actives and just -- activities and just to say that again, in Seoul there was reference to CTO's embracing this area of broader cybergovernance and the value of members of the Commonwealth recognizing need to modernize policies nor digital age. There's this general sort of promotion through the sole process of ensuring that countries really get up to speed with regard to -- changes and the opportunities for developing global knowledge economy. So, the kind of framework CTO is working on was recognized in Seoul that other regions could recognize. It got a very good push and very good positive endorsement in SEOUL. Okay. That's a quick review of CTOs areas of activity.

    

    

     Next we have ICANN, and I'll give a very brief account of what's happening within the governmental advisory committee in particular within ICANN. I sit on the GAC Government advisory committee for UK and I've been convening the members ever the GAC in sessions at every ICANN meeting ICANN meets three times a year and the GAC need tan done to ICANN and they have opportunities develop not only policy and advice to the ICANN board, but also to engage with other stakeholders and so on. It's an opportunity for Commonwealth members of gabbing to exchange views and see if can develop common approach on some of the issues particularly with regard to ICANN's globalization agenda and out reach to developing countries and stakeholders in developing countries and we have a kind of very open agenda for the meeting of the Commonwealth GAC members which I convene and I also use that to report on Commonwealth initiatives such as SCCI Tracy is there with me Tracy being Trinidadian GAC member and we've had contributions from Martin as well on the Commonwealth -- forum and ICANN generally recognizes importance of Commonwealth as an important association of countries, and as part of it global strategy we get a lot of very positive signals from ICANN in respect to what the Commonwealth can contribute.

     In terms of membership of the GAC it has been increasing from the Commonwealth. We have had new members join in the late year from the Cayman Island and to Velu, Namibia, is the wazlan and Zambia we have absent from the GAC 15 Commonwealth Member States and including a few African states, Luctu is not a member yet, Mozambique island states, Solomon island, Bodies and who else, Kiribati and several Caribbean states but the good news, good news with regard to out reach to those Caribbean states that are not members of GAC because the Caribbean telecommunication union has been invited to be an observer on the GAC at the next meeting Tracy in BEUNOS ARIES next month we'll have CTU there and that provides a channel or linkage if you like to the Caribbean island states, Commonwealth members who are not members of the GAC and I'm thinking Antigua, Dominica and St. Lucia and St. Vincent and also Bahamas.

     And Grenada and Barbados. Yeah. We also are missing Giana and Belize which I think is important that. We will try to reach out through the Commonwealth grouping as well as through CTU and CTO, in fact as well teen get those countries to recognize the value of participation in the GAC and understand that the domain name system is fast evolving and there's a lot of public policy issues we need to consider with expansion of generic top level in particular. So there's a lot of critical issues that the GAC embracing. And the last meeting was in Derbin in July and Buenos Ares and we're back to Singapore in March for the next ICANN and GAC meeting. And then London. London in June. It will be the 50th ICANN meeting and so it's a bet of a maim ar milestone for ICANN and we, UK Government, we're -- UK registry with Martin and we are discussing how we might use the opportunity of London meeting in June to engage possibly Government ministers, so we may be reaching out Commonwealth ministers to come and join us in a special high level meeting at London.

     It's still an idea that is in early stages of development and that's one of the possible significant developments for the Commonwealth. And the CTO are members, telecommunication organization are members of the GAC I'm sorry. Observers on the GAC and they'll have a potential role to play in the London meeting. In particular. And there will be a Commonwealth DNS forum which is planned for London meeting that's a neat seeing way to turn to Martin Boor to explain the concept on the progress in the planning for the Commonwealth DNS forum at the London meeting next June. Martin, if I may turn you to, thanks.

     >> Martin: Thanks, very much, Marc. The idea of using London and ICANN meeting in London as an opportunity, occurred to us as I started meeting people from round the Commonwealth Nigeria, from Kenya and from India, and started realizing quite what a wealth of initiatives were going on in those different countries. Addressing real problems, some of those being problem that were shared by other countries other organizations including our own. So, the idea was to try to look at some way of capturing the Dynamism in the sector in the different Commonwealth countries. And, we developed the idea of doing a Commonwealth DNS forum. Now I quickly will add, that that is perhaps not the best title. Because it's going to go a little wider than the just the DNS. And look at some more generally applicable in internet related issues.

     But we're -- we didn't want to end up with confusion between Commonwealth Internet forum and Commonwealth Internet Governance forum. And so, as we are doing it in the marriage ups Of or just before the ICANN meeting we decided to keep with the DNS inclusion. We're working with the Commonwealth telecommunications organization and as I said, we're trying to base it on some really practical and problem focused initiatives through the Commonwealth. And as such we want to get Governments obviously but we also want to get NGOs, civil society people who are making so much happen in some countries. And the industry initiatives as well. So, and saying nothing of academics we really want to get a good range of the different actors and different partners that are involved. I've had an immensely positive response from everybody I've spoken to about the initiative.

     And I'm hoping that we will have a good cooperation with ICANN which then will allow a certain amount of my budget to contribute to travel cost. We will not have enormous budget or that but it will give us an opportunities to try to get people who otherwise would not be able to come and who have got some intercontributes to the discussion into the meetings. And I'm also working or had a very positive reaction from PIR bidding more NGO type level domain and they'll have a very specific interest in helping to support civil society involvement. So this is really exciting me quite a lot that we have a real opportunity here to get some very interesting people around the table. I'm talking with ISOC because they did a lot of studies working with partners particularly in Africa where they've done studies on Internet exchange points and economic environments and things like that.

     And these studies have been done locally so you actually got real initiatives sitting behind them and they're happy to share that information. So I'm planning to partner with them both in Africa and India or outside south Asia where we're getting that interest and I've also started discussions with organization in India called digital empowerment foundation. Which, houses it's strap line empowering people of the edge of information so what they're doing is looking at initiatives to help development the implantation of access to the digital economy from rural locations and a lot of these initiatives are actually coming from the ground they're the people who are directly involved again something I find very exciting as a contribution. The issues we will cover taken seems nobody the right direction we want to leave a fair amount of space to develop a good discussion.

     It won't be an hour workshop followed by an hour workshop followed by an hour workshop followed by lunch it will be let's get a good space and try to get some of the issues out there and then try to find what some of the solutions are. And, the topic areas, very, very broad, certainly at this stage, associated with promoting investments and Innovations and in particular enabling economic and social developments in the country. You don't get that unless you got the infrastructure in place but to some extent you need infrastructure and you need applications to justify getting the infrastructure in place. In discussions with Mary from Nigeria she told us about the development of Internet exchange point in Nigeria and using infrastructure in existence in the University which could well then be directly applicable.

     I was talking to Australians yesterday who got you know a big problem on the shape of their country and geography of their country. And so you know here is something directly where you can learn from what other people are doing. Security obviously that is a key one for us to cover a big priority for everybody around the globe. And the last area is partnerships. And this really is so trying to find a more constructive and practical way of talking about multi-stakeholder engagements where you and phraseology we're working on is partnerships to development public policy and deliver economic and social goals where if you work together, you can achieve something and what I want to do, the end of this, is to come out with some practical outputs so that people who attend go away saying, Ah, that might be a solution for me.

     And one of the things that came up in my discussion with digital empowerment foundation was could we get some of these case studies just as sort of one page sheet for them all and put them together in a booklet, sorry about that, and put them together into a booklet, index it nicely, and clearly, so people can find things that are relevant to them, and you know, the digital empowerment foundation, they've been running an awards scheme for ten years. They have 300 winners covering countries in south Asia. So we've got masses of material from which to draw.

    

     What I have not told you is when it will take place. It will be 19 and 20 of June so immediately before the week before ICANN meeting and I'm hoping that people who attend -- will come to ICANN meeting will come to this session. And I'm also hoping that people will come to this session and then go into the ICANN meeting and this is a link with the DNS when the new GTLD goes on there was very few public from Africa, for example. It would be great to start thinking about how you can develop that local community that local industry that allow a future -- to some one new GTL applications relevant to Africa or India or to southeast Asia and get that additional growth and support the infrastructure. I think I better stop. There because I'm conscious that I was allocated five minutes and I've now taken ten. So, please excuse me for being long.

     But, well, I'm very excited by this and in particular, by the way, the people from all over the Commonwealth have responded to this initiative and if anybody wants more information, I can bore you for hours!

     >> MARC CRANDALL: Thanks that was a very exciting ten minutes. So we much appreciate. People are contacting you directly or is there a separate means of consultation inputs on-line for this Martin, just sorry a quick question on that.

     >> MARTIN: I'm more than happy for people to come and grab me and say, they want to be involved. And I was able to use DUrbin to reach out to -- there was really extent session in durbin directly involved in discussions with African entrepreneurs you know, people who were doing something and I was actually really excite bid that because what you have is youngsters -- some slightly older, everybody was younger than me but they all are nowadays but they were doing things and they were talking about what they were doing. And I spoke to some of those people who were involved in that. And they've said, yes, you know, they would be really happy to get involved in that wider discussion. And so, I say Africa again very, very interested. And I spoken here twice ISOX India -- Asia he's based in India and that gives us out reach.

     If other people want to get involved I will be more than happy, this is open process, and I want it to be something that people find useful hence why I've been looking to try to make sure it's output related rather than lots of talk about theory.

     >> Marc Thanks we can certainly put progressively as the preparations develop, and your input -- the inputs you receive help you start to finalize the program and List of issues we can put information about that on the Commonwealth IGF site and link up with ISOX and ICAM Web sites and we should have a concerted effort through the Web sites to promote awareness and encourage further inputs. It is indeed a very, very exciting project.

    

     Okay let's go on to the second part of our agenda because I think we've covered most of the initiatives and programs and all the activities of organizations relating to Commonwealth and Internet in that first part. So let's go on to the second part which is where we wanted to provide an opportunity for Internet Governance for chum are active in Commonwealth states or involving at the regional level significant numbers of Commonwealth states. And we are going to have three presentations about five very important and well established forum and this will be interesting to hear their current status and kind of initiatives they're involved in and compare notes and see if there commonalities which I expect there will be and so first off, we got Mary Uduma. Who is managing director of Janeo. Is it Jano, Janeo, digital solutions she was formally with the Nigerian communications commission.

     And is currently Chair of the Nigeria IGF which you will talk about and also went after began IGF your representing the WAIGF on that. So Mary. You can bring us up to date on the national and regional one. Okay.

     >> Mary: Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here and I just want to bring us up to speed with what is happening west Africa. IGF as well as Nigeria national IGF. I think I wanted to address what Marc said about ICANN IGF. I think the last meeting in Dublin was not only the GAC, GAC members -- I mean the Commonwealth GAC members it was like the CCs and the ILAC I think that all -- that meeting we said it will be nice for us to have ICANN IGF not just the GAC -- I mean ICANN, Commonwealth ICANN not just GAC, Commonwealth GAC or GAC Commonwealth so it will be all impressing. So that's the point I want to raise at what Marc said about regional Commonwealth countries during ICANN meeting. Okay. In terms of I'll start with Nigeria and national IGF. We held what was called real national multi-stakeholder IGF started last year with support of the Government.

     It was Government actually that backed us up on. It but it included the private sector. And it included civil society. And it included academia. It included the youth, even the military they were part of it. And so, it was really multi-stakeholder event. This year, we had about 280 participants face to face participants part from on-line discussions. So, this year, 2010, it was held on the 18th of June 2013 and what we did was, to ask the stakeholders to come up with what the things should be the same and subteams of IGF event. And we've just been holding it one a day, it is a day's event. We'll try to make sure we crowd as much as possible and be able to do as much as possible. And after we threw that I invitation upon we had input from the communities and at the end of the day, it seemed we had so many suggestions for the teams and we finally zeroed on the theme Internet Governance for empowerment national integration security through multi-stakeholders engagement.

     Why did we chose that. We find out that we had physical -- not only on-line security issues but we have physical security issues because the book of Horan with -- the telecom -- infrastructures so we thought we should engage our youth on that and be able to talk about that. We also thought about empowering our youth. So in that case the particular things that happened, one unique thing that happened was we held a workshop for the youth on entrepreneurship opportunity in the internet. And it was well attended. We were planning for about 30 youths and we got over 60 of them. It was difficult for us to manage the space and the length allowed some of them after the meeting, they started on-line discussion on how to protect or how not to be a bad -- a bad user of the Internet. But a positive user of the internet.

     That's one thing that came out of it. They also asked us to do it again, 2014, we should do more than we D one there was not enough for them. We model our IGF with the normal theme, the subtheme of access and diversity, openness and privacy, just like the global IGF. But, we domesticate it into what we actually want to be of benefit to us so we looked at address an ability of critical ICT infrastructure which was really trust and that trust would look at security. And my colleague here, Doctor Savannah Coiant he's director of -- commission and he actually moderated the security aspect of it because that is his business in any year gentleman telecommunications. It was very inclusive and attendance was go. We had even difficulties managing the crowd because we had about 600 participants.

     We had just as I said, it was open -- the minister was -- the minister came in person last year and this year to declare the event open. And the other agencies of Government like Nigeria communications commission and the development agency, IT development agencies in Nigeria their team is respecting all representatives came and we had a civil society and there were -- we all had the physically challenged group. And so it was human right -- one of the sessions was on human rights. And it was checked by human rights Commissioner in Nigeria and for that reason it, was very, very productive and in terms of financing, we got minimum financing from the Government. It was -- commission foundation and MICA that gives us chunk of money we used. NIRA which I'm President of the .NG organization also constricted and we had Google and we had Nigeria also De -- society and we had private sector in person and gave us band with for on-line so we had people on-line?

     And I Webex so there was -- I couldn't make it to Abudja so there was eParticipation. That's the -- and at the end of the program, we produced a report which we forwarded to the special minister and on his recommendations we had about 29 recommendations and some of them are things we think Government should do and there's a private sector should do and those civil society should do. I also mentioned that telecom operators also support -- they even brought exhibition for the one day. And then, people are looking forward to the next idea, asking when is next IGF going to be and looking forward to participating. And the good thing is that our Government agencies are making good projects for the programs because of my relationship from my previous work hi to go and make sure that they put it in their budget.

     Because if it's not in the budget they cannot fund those. So, what I expect to have wanting next year and we may have to do more than it did next year because people clamored For -- see this is to -- so we have six -- including youth and then we had general sessions and it was a good turnout. And I think we're seeing a positive thing coming out of the NIGF organization because some of that initiative that federal Government of Nigeria are doing they're also looking at multi-stakeholder thing in putting them to be. So the process is ongoing and is positive in the environment. And I think that will be it for the Nigeria national IGF. Okay I didn't talk about chat on-line protection. We had session on chat on-line protection as one of the emerging issues moving forward and you must have had that -- the President's wife, first lady, is a champion now, chat on-line given by ITU and she's very, very -- seeing that she does something in that line.

     She has organized first youth child on-line protection called it youth protection on-line. So, and, other things are coming up and the center is of ITU is being established in Nigeria and in process. He's -- he's -- he's really involved in it and in the -- of -- all right. I think that is it for Nigeria. But for west Africa, it was 6th, yeah, 6th west African IGF and the same process we used in Nigeria had t happened in July west African IGF and that took 2012 Commonwealth centers program I know representation think it on behalf of Commonwealth IGF, I did the program in 2012 in Saerloon. It happened and it was good and it talked about what Tracy already said about the Cybercrime tool kit and templates. And it was well accepted. And then in 2013 we deposit have much -- though I sent mail but I didn't have response from Commonwealth IGF office.

     So, I hope that 2014 will have some collaboration. For west Africa we have about 15 countries in west Africa and out of the 15 countries 13 of them were -- this is highest -- it was held in Cordovar and we had sponsorship begin from Google and from orange and north Africa and then Fosfa and order that helped us in getting that -- but our challenge was that we could not have -- sessions when he all plenary sessions for three days. The only problem we had is accessibility for -- especially members challenged. So we are work on that. We hope by the time we do 2014 which you sent out calls for, so a country hosting will be able to give us meet all our requirements. And final thing is still a challenge for us. We don't have government so much Government -- it was Government of -- that carried the bulk of financing .

     Government of Korbava so the society of Iceland was visit and we also had the press present and again attendance was poor. Why? Funding for participants from the countries have only one or two people coming from countries, that is the challenge we still are asking members that they make provision. Why they making perhaps for national IGF they should make provisions and there was a lot of national IGFs from Beijing, Sengare, Senagog,  Liberia and holding their own national and they kind of were -- NENA is part of -- she's been doing very well. So coordinator of west African IGF is from east Africa Judy. She's from east Africa. And as I now could advise Chair of west African on to next one so the next country that is going to Chair host it or really Chair, on to the next IGF. What did we talk about in west African IGF we looked what the was paramount, what a challenge us to and we look at peace.

     Because there was war in Maly and Cortavah has just finished this book of -- and Nigeria and the other ones in -- so we said Internet Governance for peace, how can we? And one of the -- one of the unique things that happened in Africa was we asked the youth to tell us what, how, we can use Internet tool to bring about piece. And one of the testimonies we had was that during the -- it was ice city that helped accredit a Web site for people that got disturbed to come for help tore counselling For -- oh, no, no, for counseling and for help and to begin there was also the issue of NP in Cortavois that use this Web site and she is the best in this -- oh, good for you. So, I think that is where -- because of time I will end. There I don't know whether -- I just come from I don't know where with a new face.

     >> Somebody tweeting from this room and that's the person that pulled me from wherever I am.

     >> Came all right. Thank you.

     >> All right.

     >> Okay thanks very much.

     >> Marc That's very interesting to hear and also very it's a reminder of some of the key issues of some states in terms of unrest and civil unrest and infrastructure and so on. It's certainly wish everybody well in the region. In your case, especially Nigeria with additional challenges that kind of problem presents especially. Okay. Thanks very much. Let's move to east African IGF and Uganda IGF so I turn now to Lillian Nalwoga, she's a policy officer with, how can I say, CIPESA, I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with the acronym and also business development director with eLab limited and I will say representing east African IGF and Uganda IGF. So thank you.

     >> LILLIAN NALWOGA: Thanks, Marc. I'll try to be brief or I don't know because it seems like Mary had quite a lot. Starting from Uganda IGF I want to share -- you began day IGF sorry I'm laughing who is this person.

     >> Ladies and Gentlemen, there is surveillance going on in this room. You need to disguise yourself and sharpen your eyes and watch clearly someone is watching you, thank you.

     >> Lillian: Nice to have you here. They're going to share something unique we did this year. We've always had challenges of getting private sector participation. And we usually have the model where we start with on-line discussion where's we get to get different topics shared on different mailing lists and choosing the report from. There this year, we covered all issues starting from access, Cybercrime, -- resources and imagine issues like open data and Internet. And on-line child protection. Now, what have we been able to achieve is that during last year's discussions there was a little debate on on-line child protection and this was an imaging topic is still emerging and different people don't know how to address it and they have different perspectives. Coming from Africa where we see issues of access and emerging Cybercrime issues like -- or that they feel child protection is just a, by the way,  but what we found last year here was there was mixed reaction, yes.

     And what we decided was to pull this out with sole funding from ISOC because I also represent the ISOC Uganda chapter and we took advantage of that grant and we wanted a grant of 10,000 U.S. dollars to do our piloting in three schools in Uganda and just finding out how these kids are using Internet, if they do have cool labs, of course, they do, but, how do the teachers instruct them and what kind of material they share with them. And whether the parents are involved in the engagement with school and kids and teachers. -- is not yet out -- the reserve is not yet out but ongoing and we feel it will fit into awareness of child on-line safety and probably roll in and out other parts of the country. We are working with a Ministry of ICT and we intend to also advocate to -- to help us or not help us, welcome them to have a talk we intend to De vote and share with our -- that is about one of the key -- we got out of Uganda Governance forum 2012.

     But this year we decided rather than having general forum where we get so many diverse issues we would rather have that on-line discussions and pick one or two topics that can be used to bring together the specific sectors for that issue. So, this year, around 2013 we identified access connecting last mile and cybersecurity but looking at Internet freedoms. And we got participation from the private sector because they're electrical and we're talking about infrastructure issues we got that participation from implementing agency, national IT implementing agency because they're working on having some cybersecurity for establishing the -- which participation was quite good. And on the contrary we decided not to have a full day event. Usually full-day events they do not come because they do not have time and are not dedicated we decided just since looking at two topics to have a half day.

     But we put in that eParticipation we put in remote participation and interesting we had -- following the event. And we had people were just sitting in their offices going on their daily day-to-day walk but at the same time fitting into the workshop and quite interesting interruption was coming through tweet feeds and remote participation. Remote participation ended up with -- and we were just experimenting with that model and we decided this was something we would take on. Looking next, year E. it will just fit into some of the recommendations on these two issues and probably took topic -- pick a topic different from this year's main -- so I -- to Uganda IGF and the challenge we get and probably put to Tracy, you mentioned something on cybersecurity initiative, something you're working with Ministry. We do not get participation in tons of -- terms of okay drafting with a program and fitting into content but usually the challenge would get from them is lack of participation in such events is lack of funding.

     So I put it into the Commonwealth IGF if you have this initiative are you doing you mentioned Ghana, Kenya, Tasania probably I don't know how big your funding basket is, it would be nice if you brought these people to fit into this adult tour -- I don't know this would motivate them to further support initiatives at the local level. And going to east African IGF I'm glad that we have a representative from east Africa and we have went Kemuva from Kenya and I'm sitting here with the next east after began -- from Tanzania and -- and Kenneth are from Tanzania and will host next year's A IGF -- E IGF and just year it was in Brundy. It was quite a challenge because the organization took her -- preparations had been I think in two because at one point we had challenges over coordinating the different -- with different stakeholders within the region because we had countries like -- having a national forum this year and probably for those who are familiar with east African -- it has been a very successful model for the last year and this year we had challenges getting coordination, equipment and different stakeholders.

     Because one is the Convena -- went down and we never really sat down to circumstance okay, how do we move forward, once the -- steps down. So, there was that lack of structure like how would I move on if someone else -- down and that is disruptive of our organization and coordination and we had the -- initially thought that having it hosted -- having east after began IGF hosted under regional bodily like east African communications commission, would be a good idea of which they say they would host but when we tried to make follow up they said they did not have that capacity and besides, back then I think it was Kenya that is -- was sharing the regional body and then there was a change in Government in Kenya. So it's all disrupted and we had new people coming in and no ways of engaging with them and I think up to now if -- shared IGF story the experiences they had challenges in engaging with Government this year.

     So, that challenge of engaging different stakeholders, -- but I think this year, we had a diverse -- so the problem was rich -- program was rich. We managed to get funding from ISOC within the private sector from weren't IOTs very separative and they find it to present activities -- two represents from different countries and then we had countries that solely organized like Tanzania and IGF and they're able to move funding to exchange meeting which is interesting. So, we were able to have representation from all the countries however the discussion did not have the diverse perspective from all you know the different stakeholders from the countries but at least it was a break through. And we agreed that it would be -- we are setting up a new steering committee getting the new coordination under the Chairmanship of Talsania and the process is starting I think it already started but sort of feedback planning starts in region early and I think east after began IGF would be held between June and July and we have not set up the update yet but it should be mid tier so we have six months of planning setting up those structures and making them the whole process useful and meaningful and we would also like to have participation from regional bodies I think in the past the Commonwealth IGF -- in Narobi and you participated in two of those.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: I did.

     >> LILLIAN NALWOGA: Would like to have this diversity and sharing how you're doing your stuff and how Nigeria is doing our stuff so we can coordinate and learn from each other thank you.

     >> Marc. Thank you very much, Lillian that last point is very important one about cross fertilization and sharing experiences. And both examples of east African and west African IGF showed you had different challenges and also commonalities and that's interesting to note. Quickly Martin do you wants to just do a quick very brief summary of UK IGF and what's happening there, thanks.

     >> MARTIN: If I start off by saying both Lillian and Mary have come up with initiatives real practical initiatives in their countries in their countries and that sort of underlinings my sort of wish to get those out into the public for the Commonwealth DNS forum because you know that's stuff that really ought to be shared because we can all learn from it. And to be also quite honest, that I'm an ideas thief. This year, looking around and seeing what was happening in east Africa and what was happening west Africa, in developing the networks of national and regional IGFs we realized that in the UK, we needed to start rethinking, rejuvenating the UK IGF so. So this year has been a year of regrouping and relaunching and trying to identify our priorities and I'm not ashamed of plagiarism at all in this case.

     I think it was actually really quite useful. What we've done is try to improve our stakeholders engagement and trying to get a much broader ownership of the process and the other thing we tried to do is try to take a longer view so in other words, look forward rather than starting in December or January and thinking about the in this case October IGF meeting to start thinking through those longer term ideas that we would like to see on the agenda for 2014. And the things that stayed stable is we've been engaging with parliamentarians right way from the start of the UK IGF because we think it's very important to try to help parliamentarians understand the issues that they are dealing with and engaged with legislature before he writes his laws. It's better to have informed laws than laws that adjust while it seemed like0 a good idea at the time.

     And also, the youth in IGF, which is been quite a solid continuous development process. And I would also like to recognize that right way through the IGF progress the UK Government has been actively involved and in particular we have always had ministerial engagement in event and I'm looking to Marc to make sure that that carries on into the future.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: Marc I'll do my best.

     >> MARTIN: The key issues for us this year were child on-line protection. Very much politically important issue this year. And it was on-line data protection and right of the child that was discussion. There good to hear there are other sort of Africa has that as being quite an important issue. And we look to the future evolution of the IGF and what we as a group of stakeholders thought that IGF could be doing better. And in that discussion, the discussion next door surveillance topic came up. But that was not one we had time to prepare. Identity and trust, Internet Governance principles, security, but in this case it was quite closely linked to Seoul and the international signer crime -- Cybercrime -- international cyberconference process. Title always gives me problems. And IPv6 and spam. As I said, we're looking -- we were looking at that stage to try to develop our thinking and planning process for the IGF 2014 and we've got quite a -- aggressive, I'm not quite sure exactly how we're going to be able to resource this,  but quite aggressive process for trying to get stakeholder engagement and ideas and the inputs in there to feed into UK -- members and to feed into stakeholders involved in the IGF progress.

     But for me one of the key things that came up when we did the wash-up from the UK IGF discussion in September, was that, yes, we -- we've ended up with something that was very important to do a national thinking. But at the same time, we started to recognize that the national and regional IGF process starts putting people into silos you know? They think locally which is a good thing. And what we thought would be for us particular useful would be to try to reach out to the other national and regional IGFs who share a particular priority with us. And start trying to exchange some of those ideas, some of that think some of that together, we get different views and different ideas in and that we can use that as a way of saying, well, why don't we work with east Africa on topic X to put in proposal to the -- for workshop in IGF to work with west Africa on topic Y for the same thing.

     And try to build those cross linkages so we don't stay just in silos we're doing that ground work and building up. So I'm putting that on the table. I would love to hear more from both of you and for any other who are working on national regional IGFs, how can we do you know, I had discussions with indian process. And once again, you know that's probably something we will be able to spot shared clear objectives. Thank you. Oh, I think we lost our Chairman.

     >> Marc Okay Martin thank you very much. Certainly I think it's common desire here I think to develop linkages so that's very interesting. That's something we're certainly taking forward from this within the IGF here in Bali there's been sessions exploring that in very concrete terms. It's very interesting that we see that.

     >> MARTIN: Yes,  there have been. But, that discussion about doing the linkages I felt was getting lost in that discussion. So That's why I thought I would raise it here because I think it is actually something very important to do.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: Thanks very much for raising it unfortunately we're out of time to develop discussion on that but I'm sure we can continue perhaps outside this meeting to discuss how perhaps the Commonwealth IGF can facilitate that. John has to dash to a flight. Quick question for John or anybody coming through remotely? I'm sorry? Anything on child on-line protection for John and Sandra do you know? Nope? Okay. John, you're excused. Don't want you to miss your flight. But let's perhaps take those two --

     >> Questions, I'm sorry. -- okay. Okay. Well we are out of time. But we can take I think maybe one or two questions because we are technically over. Does anybody have any points on anything we raised it's been a lot of material. One lesson I've taken is that one and a half hours is really not enough with the wealth of activity going on in the Commonwealth. Anytime way, yes, please, thank.

     >> My name is -- from Kenya. ISOC. I wanted to observe that we had capacity building initiatives in the region. And mostly, those funded by ISOC and APC -- Governance in South Africa we're some members from Commonwealth attended even some are in this room so. This capacity building very important because they enrich the content that we offer in our local IGFs. And we previously had challenges in different -- to that -- in IGF I wonder what is the best method to probably approach them so that they can participate fully in our initiatives? Thank you.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: So it's a question about -- participation does anybody have any reaction or --

     >> Sorry I have a question for you Marc. Maybe Tracy. The Commonwealth cybersecurity initiative. Let me turn to my first notes. Your way --

     >> This is Cybercrime.

     >> Yes, cyber crime initiative.

     >> LILLIAN NALWOGA: The African IGF is working on cybersecurity strategy. Are you working with them in any way, or are you having to power different initiatives because like I had -- just a few scattered countries within Africa, I don't know, you have been able to look at what they're doing and what are you doing with individual countries you're dealing with in Africa Commonwealth countries?

     >> MARC CRANDALL: Tracy, you want to take that?

     >> TRACY HACKSHAW: Just to reiterate that the Commonwealth countries, so the Commonwealth African countries are picked up in the initiative. I'm not aware that the EU mark is directly involved but tall would be through agencies like CTO through Africa and ITU and so son on. So when we do out tree will come from leads that are generated through misses that may have come through conferences or seminars that are easily certifiable and we'll come back to CCI as a request for help or assistance. I'm not aware that -- is directly involved -- can speak to that.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: I don't know I would have to check. I don't know. Okay. I think this will probably have to be the last question.

     >> It's not a question. I want to offer a solution.

     >> Yes, great, come back to Kenya. ISOC.

     >> Yes -- from Tanzania, yeah engagement sometimes can be a problem. I'm using the word sometimes because it's not supposed to be a problem actually. The best way of making sure that we engage as many people as possible, to me, is whenever we are thinking of engaging them is to talk to them in way which enables them to seat benefit from their spec speculative and point of view because at the end ever the day people buy into benefit not what -- something else. So if we approached things from that angle, it will be easy to get people to be engaging whatever we are doing. That's one. Two, it's always not taking no for an answer. Thank you.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: Okay. Thanks very much. That's very good comments. Thanks very much. I think we'll have to wrap up there. I'm sorry. The time for discussion was very limited. But I think it's reflection on how much is going on and the wealth of really productive activity sometimes in the face of severe challenges, too, which is makes it even more impressive. And I think this form does provide a very valuable opportunity (forum) share experiences like we heard from UK and east Africa and west Africa that's been a very valuable exchange I think and we can probably take that further in some way and we'll have to consider how to do that. I think there was question about funding in CIGF there is not any actual fund at the moment. We did have a -- to facilitate youth participation but that's -- that is not operating at this time.

     But that was another I think very useful exercise that we undertook at C IGF maybe we want to revisit that was we start to plan ahead. I just invite everybody who is here to spread the word about the opportunity to explore how we take this Commonwealth IGF concept forward and how we might develop it and how we might use the Web site more to facilitate exchanges and interaction and sharing of experiences and canvassing of views on what perhaps one national forum is doing and the problems it has and how it can learn from the experience of others and likewise at the regional level and how we might develop some kind of Commonwealth common perception of how -- the whole IGF concept and what a stakeholder model can advance as we progress through the reviews and the WSIS and outcomes in 2005 at the UN and ITU and through the other UN action facilitators this ten year review the process that is going on that could be value in using CIGF and to share views on how the WSIS review can progress the current of common aims we might have for division between 20 15.

     So, I think there's a lost potential. And it's a matter of perhaps identifying some resources but also, capturing ideas and inputs from people here and people who are listening and following this and your networks of contacts in the regions and so on. It will be very useful if we could promote the idea that this is a valuable forum the C IGF and invite people to contribute their thoughts and ideas and how to take forward. I would welcome that in particular. Yes, Mary?

     >> MARY UDUMA: Thank you, just quickly, I have to say one I don't know what we have report or trend analysis of attendance of Commonwealth countries at IGF meeting. One. Second one, is, since CTU has a lot of events and programs, is it possible for each country that these hosting cities or program should be able to have a slot to talk about the CIGF? Thank you.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: That's a very good idea. I'm meeting with -- to see in London shortly. I'll put that to him. I think that's worth exploring to with him to see how that works and we'll put that on the Web site as one idea and see how more widely shareholders react to that. I think it's a very good idea. Thank you so much, Mary. Right, okay, I think we had better wrap up as we've gone over time. I want to thank all the guys doing the technical facilitation for the sessions. We appreciate it (applause) and, thank you all for contributing and thank you for your support. And I wish you well in your various projects if you're involved in projects. And I look forward to talking to you again in the near future and doing further updates.

     >> That's right.

     >> MARC CRANDALL: Especially looking forward to you talking and thank you very much.

     >> And safe travels to everybody, bye-bye.

     >> Yes. Bye-bye.

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     This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.

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