IGF 2020 - MAG - Virtual Meeting - XXII

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during an IGF virtual call. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 


>> CHENGETAI MASANGO: We will give another one minute for people to come on.  Actually, we can start now.  Just a quick reminder that this meeting is being recorded, and we will have a summary report, and we also do have captioning.  So there is going to be a transcript of this meeting later.  And this is virtual MAG meeting number 22, which is the last in the 2020 series of meetings.

And then the next meeting will start the 2021 series, even though it will be in December.

With that, I will hand it over the floor to our chair Ms. Esterhuysen.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you very much to Chengetai.

Thank you to all who have joined us, and I can see we have some of our new MAG members who have joined us and the Secretariat.  I wanted to start by saying, as I said in the chat, I will physically introduce myself to all the new members, I'm Anriette Esterhuysen.  And I'm currently the chair of the MAG group and I will be staying on for next year.  So I look forward to working with you all.

I feel a bit guilty about calling this meeting because I know how the team at the Secretariat and the team in New York have been working incredibly hard and MAG members have been working incredibly hard.  So I think everyone deserves a break.  At the same time, it's for us, while the experience of the IGF is still fresh to debrief and share what we think worked well and to capture these lessons and to document them.  And so much of the capacity of the IGF lies in its members and I don't think we have enough time to document our time.

And Chengetai and I had a prep meeting and we thought we should focus on debriefing what we as MAG members and members of the Secretariat felt we learned and what worked and what didn't work.  This is not a substitute for the open mic session.  There will be an open mic session tomorrow, and we might even still conduct a short participant evaluation if you think that is worthwhile.  And then the MAG, the new MAG will have to review that data.

So this is not a substitute for participant feedback.  This is really an opportunity for us to share what we feel we have learned.

I will just briefly run through the agenda and then I think we should just do a quick welcome to all the new MAG members.  I'm going to ask new MAG members to raise their hands in the participant list and then we can give you a quick chance to say your name and where you are, just so we know who you are.

Amrita, let's start with you.

>> AMRITA CHOUDHURY:  I'm based out of India, New Delhi.  I'm happy to be here.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: And welcome to all of you.  Adam, you are next.

>> Hello, Adam Peake.  I live and work in Amsterdam.  I might be moving a few miles down the street soon.


>> Hi, I'm Courtney Rauche, I live in Washington, D.C. 

>> Hello, I'm Iombonana.  And I am in Madagascar.

>> I'm Jen Chen.  I'm from Singapore.  Nice to meet all of you.


>> Hello, I'm Mattia Fantianti, I'm with the Italian government.  It's a joy to be here.


>> Hello, Tereza Horejsova.  I'm living in Geneva.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: This is not your first MAG meeting.  We value you joining us.  And feel free to share your experiences.

So to run through the agenda quickly, we are going to just    I think firstly, I want to do some thank yous and maybe others want to as well.  And then we want to do the debrief and that's really the substance of this meeting.  We want to try to keep the meeting to an hour and a half.  And as most of you will know, we are quite good at time keeping, most of the time.

And the debrief will just look at what worked well, and what could have been done differently and then let's capture some recommendations for the next MAG and the Secretariat.  And finally, this is our chance to say good bye to the outgoing MAG members and because we do have new MAG members with us, we have also prepared a date and we'll share some information about the next MAG meeting.

So on that, I will start on the thank yous.  I know we have all said thank yous and please, if anybody    we don't all have to contribute, but if somebody feels, they should.

I really want to thank the Secretariat.  I think this was a big challenge, and I think it was more than just a big IGF and different, because of working online and it being a virtual IGF.  I think the uncertainty of it also created quite a lot of anxiety and we even saw that in our MAG calls when we had polls about people's confidence whether the IGF would work or not.

I think as it often is, when one does something for the first time, it comes with a degree of uncertainty and the unknown and I think that did create a very challenging environment.  And my sense is that, in fact, it worked incredibly well and it worked far better than I think many of us expected.  And it really was a result of team work as always, and the MAG parliament, our host government, and the UN, and not just UN DESA, and the NRI community.  So MAG members were not alone.  The Secretariat was not alone, but it was really a huge, huge effort.

I think amongst all of those who contributed to this effort, the bulk of the pressure fell on the Secretariat.  So I really want to say thank you very, very much.  I'm sorry I harassed you a lot.  And I think that, you know, you did an incredible job.  So really huge congratulations and big thank you to all of you.

And to the MAG members, as I said previously, I was so impressed that not only did you work hard in the preparatory process.  You were very present during the event itself.  I think I didn't    I don't think I ever attended a single session where there wasn't at least two MAG members in the room.  And I think that makes a different.  I think that presence of MAG members in the IGF space conveys our commitment and our interest in the event, and that's important.

So that's it from me.

I'm not sure if there are others who want to add, who want to take the floor at this point, before we move on to the actual review.

Hi, Sofie.  I see your note in the chat, and warm welcome to you.

Oh, by the way, Chengetai and everyone, before we continue.  I had a message from Mary Haduma.  She wants to convey her thanks for the messages of the support and her apologies that she couldn't have been at this meeting.  They would have really liked to be at this meeting.

Speaking queue is empty.  New MAG members, you will notice that there's a speaking queue.  When we have MAG calls, we use an online speaking queue, but one can also use the Zoom to raise your hand. 

>> RUDOLF GRIDL:  I would like to raise my hand.  This is Rudolf.  But I can't manage.


>> RUDOLF GRIDL:  This is my last meeting as an official MAG member.  I will still be in the MAG as a former host country MAG member, but I want to take the occasion for thanking the Secretariat for the excellent work this year and also last year when we were the host country.  Chengetai, and the team Luis and Anja.  I want to thank the DESA, and you and the whole team there, Dennis, they were at every time responsive and helpful to help us navigate through the    the UN system which is not so easy to understand for outsiders, and MAG members will learn that.  So this was very helpful.

And I want to thank, especially and foremost, you Anriette, you have been a tremendous chair.  I think the effort time, the dedication that you gave into this process, it was really the key for    one of the keys but I would say a decisive key for this virtual IGF success.  Relentlessly, you motivated us to stay on track, to keep being serious, and to work our tasks and the spark that you ignited that I think even virtually, it came through the whole MAG.  And really, it was a great, great experience working with you.  It was only one year before it was done, but I want to thank you and perhaps also in the name of all    of all the mag, if I may, for this tremendous and I know a word now, I'm using a word that is not so much appreciated, but still leadership, steering us through this very difficult year and very successful IGF.

Thank you so much and good bye.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you very much, Rudolf.  That's what happens when you get the NGO sector in a process.  But that's just a joke.  No, I appreciate that.

Timea Suto.  You have the floor.

>> TIMEA SUTO:  I want to just know that as I put my hand up, this is the last time I'm checking as a MAG member box.  So I just wanted to say in the last meeting as a MAG member, a big thank you, both for the IGF the two weeks that we have now, but also for the    (Background noise) Secretariat for all the help and the support, and to Anriette, and I could not say it better than Rudolf said.  So I will stop here.  For the tremendous work, all the support, all the energy that you brought into the process that I think compliments really well the hard-working energy of the Secretariat.  So new MAG members, you are in the best hands you can be in.  I wish you all the success and thank you, everyone.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks a lot for that, Timea.


>> JUTTA CROLL:  So I'm the next in the row of the outgoing MAG members and I couldn't agree more than Rudolf and Timea have already said.  Thank you so much for all the work that you have already done for the MAG.  Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to have that experience over the last three years.  It was fantastic.  I will benefit for that long and the other work I'm doing.  And thank you so much for you    yes, it's leadership, but you and Anriette have shown and I can only recommend to all the new MAG members, dedicate your time to the work of the MAG.  It's a time you will never experience    have never experienced before and will never later on.  So good luck to all the new members.  Good luck to you, Anriette, for your next term and I'm very much looking forward to see, hear, and whatever way then at the next IGF in Katowice and hopefully I can attend at lost some of the MAG meetings throughout the week.  I will be glad to follow your work in the next month.

Thank you so much for everything.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you, Jutta and then we have Sylvia and Jennifer.

>> SYLVIA CADENA:  This is the last time, as Timea said, I'm ticking that box as a MAG member.  I really wanted to say that I have learned a lot and I also learned that there is a lot that I can give to this community and I hope that my contributions were useful and I hope that new MAG members continue to ask the hard questions, and pay attention to the detail.

Because that also saves us from a big hole when things are not well thought.  So, you know, despite any issue that may have arised, I think that the most important part of the work that happened during this year was that there was care, that there was attention to what was going on, and there was an intention to be responsive, even if not everything could be solved and changed and moved away, you know, to be perfect.  But that commitment to find    to listen to what was going on and make things work, I think that's very important skill to have, and I really want to commend the Secretariat for all of that work and the support for the most annoying members of the MAG, which I guess I probably have a sticker somewhere, you know, for that.

And welcome to the new MAG members and the returning offenders also, like Adam over there.  And I'm sure there will be more things to do.  More interesting challenges especially with the roadmap for the UN Secretary General coming.  So I'm part of the IGF community and I'm back to the normal seat and will continue to contribute as much as you let me.  If you need anything, please just shout.  I'm just a click away.  Thank you for everything and thanks for your patience.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you, Sylvia.

Jennifer?  Are.

>> JENNIFER CHUNG:  Hello, everyone.  My name is Jennifer Chung.  I'm echoing what Timea and Sylvia said.  It's a little bittersweet to be checking the MAG member box for the last time, but I feel like I really needed to take the floor to give my thanks out loud.

Really wanted to echo what Rudolf said, your leadership, Anriette, is phenomenal.  I don't think I have seen a MAG chair as present as you have been throughout the entire process.

For the    for a special thanks as well to the MAG    I mean to the MAG    the fellow MAG members that we all have also outgoing this year and continuing.  I think we have all been very    very present as well in the entire preparation of something that is unprecedented in the virtual IGF.

And really, really wanted to give tremendous thanks to the IGF Secretariat.  In my other role, I have a hat as the APrIGF.  I know how difficult it is to change something that's physical into something virtual, but still allows everybody to interact and participate in such a    such a great and interactive manner.  I really wanted to commend the IGF Secretariat Chengetai, Luis, Anja, all the consultants, Wim, Sam and Sorina and all the volunteers.  Without all of you, this would not have been possible, even with the great direction from Anriette, and all the invested time that the MAG members have given to us    to this entire preparation process.  I guess really the new MAG members coming in, you really are in good hands, like what Sylvia said.

I feel like I'm choking up a little bit right now, but I really wanted to give this thanks to everyone.  Yep.  That's all for me.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks very much, Jennifer.


>> LIANNA GALSTYAN:  Good morning, everyone from Armenia.  I wanted to use this chance also to say thank you to everyone, and actually, Jennifer just told what I wanted to echo first of all to all of my colleagues, but to colleagues who said already, but also to thank the fellow MAG members during this three years have enriched my experience in the Internet ecosystem, the knowledge from different aspects and the interest of different stakeholders.

This was    this is really an engaging and enriching experience, though this year, we have faced a big challenge with different    which changed the whole concept of organizing the event itself, but yet we have managed to have a very good and successful meeting, and that's also thanks to you, Anriette, and the great work of the Secretariat.  Actually, the support of which we felt through the whole time of this year.

So we are not going too far.  I think most of us as the MAG members since we have a very good roots with envoys, we will still be here and be participating there.  And have our connections.  So for the new MAG members, we are also here to support with our experience.  Thank you very much again.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you, Lianna and I also just want to say and acknowledge your particular effort, Lianna.  For last weeks of the buildup to the IGF, you were living in a context that's incredibly challenge.  You were surrounded by conflict and insecurity and I know how difficult that was for you.  And I was so impressed that you continued to do as much MAG work as you can.  So I just want to acknowledge that I know it must have been very hard for you and    and just to thank you for that effort.

Then we have Helani and the    unless the Secretariat, if you wanted to close this segment, you will have the last word.  But next, it's Helani and then Ben.

>> HELANI GALPAYA:  The process of multi-stakeholderism.  It's incredibly frustrating.  There are probably faster ways of getting things done, but I don't think there are many better ways of getting things done.  And I thank the MAG for playing a huge role in that.  I thank Anriette for really putting process above whatever personal interests or organizational interests and always letting the process do the best job.  And the Secretariat for facilitating that truly as believers of multi stakeholderism.  You know, this is a tiny part of the cosmos.  This is how we make broader decisions about the Internet, we will all be better off.  Thank you.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you Helani.  Ben?

>> BEN WALLIS:  Thank you.  I won't speak for long, because everyone has said it so well.  I mean, all the Secretariat, what they had to go to through to deliver    to deliver the IGF that finished last week, and I really appreciate your leadership style, Anriette.  Taking us forward and leading, but also making people feel empowered and included. 

One of my stock lines say when they say the IGF needs to change and it's just a talking shop.  I will say, no there's a real value in coming together and talking and learning from each other and learning    seeing different perspectives.  And the MAG has been    the MAG has been that for me too.  I have got to work with people from all around the world and from different kinds of organizations and got to appreciate your backgrounds and their experiences and their perspectives and I have been very proud to call myself a MAG mean and I look forward to continuing to follow the work of the MAG and contribute how I can.  Thanks.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you very much, Ben.  And thanks very much, everyone else.

As most of the us know, once a MAG member, you don't disappear.  I was a MAG member once.  And I think it actually    I'm not sure if everyone understands, but the MAG list, the one that you have just joined, the new MAG members, it actually includes past MAG members as well.  There's a protocol, kind of an unspoken protocol that past MAG members primarily play the role of observers, but they are there.  They are aware.  They are aware of what is happening.  They can share experiences.  They can send a message of support or offer advice.

So past members are not gone.  They are still part of the broader IGF community.

Thanks very much, everyone, and I    the Secretariat, I hope they get a chance to speak.  I have a feeling they are still in recovery mode.

>> SECRETARIAT: I can say something now, if you want.


>> SECRETARIAT: Thank you very much.  I would like to thank everybody for their kind words and also just underline that, yes, it is a community effort, and it was, in this year particularly, it was really a community effort and not just the MAG, but also other stakeholders within their national and regional initiatives and also worldwide.  And also, I would like to point out as well within the UN context.  So it wasn't just the IGF Secretariat.  We had help from Nairobi.  We had help from New York.  We even had help from the UN offices in Korea and these were mainly people we just asked to    for volunteers if they could help us and there was a lot of interest and people coming just to experience what the IGF is because also within DESA, they heard about the IGF and they wanted to experience a little bit of what the IGF was or is.

So I'm very grateful for that, and also very grateful for UN DESA in New York for arranging that as well.

There were some comments like from Sylvia, et cetera, alluding that, you know, there may have been a difficult or irritating.  No, that is a job of a MAG member.  The job of a MAG member is to speak out, is to say things and we listen, and we implement what we can.  But nobody should feel that they should keep quiet because they don't want to be seen as irritating or seen as being problematic, no.

You have to speak out and there's no such thing as a bad comment given the spirit that it is given, and we know that everybody in the MAG is chosen because they do believe in the IGF and they do want the IGF to be better.  So we    we do encourage and I do encourage everybody to speak, if you    preferably best to speak out in the meetings and on the list, but you could also send an email to the Secretariat, myself included and we can do it.

But that is the job of MAG members.

And also for the outgoing MAG members, I mean, you all have very distinctive personalities and yes, they did enrich the discussion.  I will not say that they will be missed because you can still participate    you can still participate as Anriette was saying, the MAG open groups are open to non MAG members.  So you can still participate then and in all the other intersessional activities and also volunteer for next year in some aspects.  You can be tutors.  You can mentor people who are submitting workshop proposals, especially from the global south.  I mean, that is also very important.  So you can volunteer to help people and be resource people, to help them submit good workshop proposals because you have been through the process.  You have done the grading.  You know what's    what we're looking for and it will not really change that much year to year.  I mean, the basic principles are the same.  So I would just like to leave you with that and also thank you very much, and    and for the incoming MAG members and those that are staying, we look forward to working with you as well throughout 2021.  So    and thank you very much Anriette, it was a real pleasure working with you this year and we hope that next year, we'll also have closer cooperation and really show how it's done in different circumstances.

This year was rather unique and hopefully the uniqueness of these circumstances will not be repeated next year, but we have learned a lot from these unique circumstances and we're going to be stronger going forward.

Thank you.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks.  Thanks a lot, Chengetai and thanks also to the Secretariat for being patient with me.

And let's move on to the next segment.  I just    quickly before we go, I want to note particularly for the new MAG members that there are some MAG members who over and above the roles that they play in organizing the work and the event, also play other roles.  There are MAG members who are coordinators of Best Practice Forums.  There are some that are involved in coordinating Dynamic Coalitions.  I want to thank all of you.  You know who you are, Titti and Jutta and Ben and Marcos who is with us and Carlos Alfonso, but also for the new MAG members, this is also something that you can consider.  There are multiple roles that you can play, as you are involved on this journey of challenging but collaborative achievement.

So everyone, let's just move now to the debrief.

I don't think we can be comprehensive.  So be, you know, prioritize.  You can raise your hand or you can type in the chat, and we have developed a very simple structure.  What worked well and what do you take away from this?  What do you think we should do again?  And please reflect on the themes as well, and the content, not just the process, although process is, of course, very important.

And let's do that for a few minutes and then we'll move on to what we think could have been done differently, and we can come up with recommendations.

But you are also allowed to mix those up and we have Sam    I think Sam is taking notes and Sam is brilliant at this!  So Sam, you might want to take notes and cluster the comments into those agenda categories, because people might want to mix it up.

So on that, I am giving the floor to the first person whose hand I see.  And that is... I don't see any hands actually.  No.  No hands yet.

Anyone willing to start us off? 

On what worked well?  I see Sylvia and then Ben.  Please go one after the other.  Don't wet for me.  Sylvia, you have the floor.

>> SYLVIA CADENA:  I think on what worked well, I think all the effort that was placed on the    the structuring of the tracks and the themes around the tracks in having the guidelines for main sessions helped to    (No audio).

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: I'm losing Sylvia?  Is it just me?  Can everyone else hear her? 

>> SYLVIA CADENA:  I will   

>> We lost you, but try again.  Maybe it was just that one time glitch.


>> SYLVIA CADENA:  I will type my comments on chat.  It was just about the themes and the main structure.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks Sylvia.  Ben.

>> BEN WALLIS:  I think this is going to be a bit of a broader point and I hope everyone else starts with very specific comments about what worked.

I    the virtual meeting could not replace the experience of being there in person, and the dynamic nature of the event and the ability to kind of hop from session to session and just spend your day doing different things.

I was one on the extremes of time zones, and    and I didn't    I didn't become European for two weeks.  I stayed in my time zone.  So I didn't feel like I was engaged and participating as much because it was remote.  But what I wanted to say was the fact that the virtual meeting worked as well as it did, I think is great opportunity for us when we go back to meeting in person to including people who don't have the financial resources or the time it will to travel to another continent for a week or more.  And to    to be able to include those people more in the sessions.

So I would hope that the experience of pulling off this virtual meeting would give us the confidence to allow for more remote participants and to encourage all panelists to include one or two remote participants who wouldn't otherwise be attending the IGF.

And in that way, kind of making    making the theme more inclusive and deepening the engagement of those particularly from the global south who might not otherwise attend.  So that was a positive for me and something that I hope can be taken forward.



>> JUTTA CROLL:  Yes, thank you, Anriette, for giving me the floor.  I will pick up on what Ben just said.  I think the best thing is that we had a much more level playing round for participation from people from all around the world.

In all the previous IGFs when we had the so called remote or online participation, this was always second best.  And everybody who had experienced that would say, yes, but it doesn't cope    it couldn't come up with being in the room seeing the people.  Nevertheless, we had better attended sessions this year at the IGF with more people being in the virtual room, being engaged and with more people from even parts of the world we usually don't have the means to come to a    to an on site meeting.

So what I really do think we should not go back to having remote participation and on site participation as first and second best.  We need to have it like it's equal for wherever you are going to attend the meeting.

And I also got the impression that we had a more open atmosphere.  It reminded me somehow    somehow of the IGF we had in 2008, in Hyderabad, when due to the Mumbai attacks that happened four weeks ahead of the meeting, several people did not travel to Hyderabad, but instead more people took part online and also people from India who were able to come there, students from university in Hyderabad, for example, gathered in the meetings who would otherwise probably not have been going to that meeting.

So somehow we had a nearly same experience this year.  We had more people.  We were more open.  We had a better atmosphere for the discussions and I would really love to see that we could somehow keep this experience and transfer it to the next IGF whether they be virtual or real on the spot.  We will see what happens next year. 

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Jutta.  And Timea, you are next.  I will read Sylvia's comment.  It's in the chat.  She says she thought the themes and structure worked well and the preparation for the main sessions.  And the effort to prepare these sessions was evident and acknowledged by many.  The efforts to identify speakers, it was the first time that they joined, in other words new people and new people to the IGF, and to promote the online participation.  So just have a look at the chat as well, everyone.  Thanks for that, Sylvia.  Timea and Adam and Amrita you are next.

>> TIMEA SUTO:  Building on a couple of extra points, I think worked well this year, I think because we were going remote and we knew this was first time and the community would need help to engage, I think the Secretariat, especially, but all of the MAG members have done a great effort in reaching out and helping people connect and be part of this, much more than before regarding, you know, sending newsletters, information ahead of time, all of that.  So there's a great improvement in that context, in communicating with the community, and we should build on that and enhance that going forward in the future.

Perhaps a lot more ahead of time.  But also, what I wanted to do regarding the main sessions is that I found it especially rewarding to not have anything else going on at the same time as the sessions.  I think it was a better audience and people were more engaged by not having to listen to anything else or being distracted by other things going on.

And thirdly, again, this is    I said this last year, but I think this year has been even greater that the reporting and the communication of the outputs of the IGF    on the IGF website, I know Sam has worked beyond human capacity to    to really report on quasi realtime from what is happening in the IGF.  The support from Diplo, and the community support with everybody sending in their summaries, and the Secretariat having to make sense of all of this, and not just Sam, Sorina and everyone else is working on this.

I think that that was great, and I think definitely should build on and I hope that with the new IGF website project starting next year, we will be able to give all of this effort the visibility and the recognition that it deserves.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank a lot, Timea.  Adam, I see you have typed your comment in the chat.  Everyone, please read Adam's comment.  It's about YouTube.

Adam, do you still want to speak or shall I go to Amrita.

>> ADAM PEAKE:  Go ahead.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Adam.  Amrita.

>> AMRITA CHOUDHURY:  I think I what worked really well was communicating very well with the community and the session organizers on how to conduct and thirdly, most of these sessions went    stuck to the time, which was good because they knew they would be pushed out of the room.  It was good, it would not linger on.

What could improve was the way the registration process to a session, because normally most people are not    you know, habituated to    after clicking the session, adding it to the session and adding it to their own profile.  So I think that education part needs to be improved.  And I think outputs were very good, as we got on time the platforms, the ones which from Diplo we prepared.  So I think it was a good event.

The only thing is since it stretched for two weeks, it was too much for a few people.  That's the comment we got.  Thanks.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks.  Yes, I also received comments about the length being maybe a little bit too long.

Next, we have Paul.  After Paul, we have Rudolf and then Mattia and then Jennifer.

>> PAUL ROWNEY:  Paul Rowney here.  I wanted to echo what was said and then add a few thoughts.  First of all, it was not easy for many of us to join such a long remote meeting.  And with the pandemic and the    particularly, you know    the borders opened two weeks before the meeting.

There was a lot of pent up work that needed to be done.  It's difficult to lock one away for such a long period because on site meeting, you move, and you are away, et cetera.

What it has done is highlighted how we can better use remote participation.  I think this is the key to including the remote participation and not everyone can travel.  I think it shows us of merging the two streams, so that one doesn't overshadow the other.  As in the past, the physical, in my opinion, has overshadowed the virtual, and now, you know, maybe we can get better balance between the physical IGF and virtual IGF to make it more seamless and engaged with participation across the board.

Thank you.



>> RUDOLF GRIDL:  I think one thing that was very good was the possibility for workshops or main sessions, organizers to have a very thorough preparation on online.

Using all of these online tools that we have.  I don't know how it was the years before, sometimes I had the impression that the coordination and the choreography, were perhaps not so well organized beforehand.  My impression from the sessions that I attended was that because everyone had the capability to have these online preparations going through and having the exchange, it was possible    I don't know who headed that, who took care of time.  And we had very good, well organized sessions.  I think that was very good.

The thing that we need to probably to work on is the whole technical    the technical setup.  One thing is the registration tool.  Another thing was the fact that you could not see who is with you in the room, except when you were one of the organizers.  So you never had the possibility to see how many people are there.  Who are they?  What stakeholders are on board.  That's something which you need probably to    which we need to improve on, if ever we have another round like that, or if we    if we open this virtual window also for on site events as we hope we will have in the future.

Thank you.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Rudolf, yes.  I think those are very important points.


>> MATTIA FANTINATI:  So I'm not going to repeat the other points.  I would like to really thank you, all the people that organized the IGF 2020, because it was planned like a meeting    a real meeting in person, and then you decided in a couple of months that the meeting would have to be done virtually.  So this is something that was planned in one way, and that it has been transformed in another way.

I really hope the next time that it will be in person, and the COVID pandemic will be over, and I'm really confident about that.  The meeting in person are really better than the other ones, because in the virtual meeting, what you really    it's really misses is the building    the building up a network, is what really we want when we go to the conference to build up a network, and it's very difficult to do on    in a virtual way.

But what I want to stress is the fact that if in the future we have to    we have to plan our IGF in a personal way, but we have to plan also a part of IGF for the people that cannot afford to go to the meeting and want to have a virtual meeting.  It means we have to plan it before we build it, you know what I mean?

I think it's important point for the future, because I'm sure for the future, every    every convention will have a in person presence part and with a physical presence and a part of Internet part.  So it means that there should be planned in    in the beginning as the Internet part.  Because I'm sure and I'm confident that the UN will foster the IGF's structure and IGF in every country, because I think that the bottom up strategy is the best and the multi stakeholder way is the best to face the internal governance tasks.

Just another point and then I will conclude.  I    I participated at the IGF, at the parliamentary station.  I think it's important to include the parliamentarians in an IGF activities.  So because at the end, parliamentarians make laws.  So I think that we improve the network of parliamentarians is really for the best to us.  Thank you very much.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you, Mattia, and just I will take that opportunity to agree with you, absolutely.  But I think also the high level sessions, I think no one has thus far mentioned those high level sessions.

And I think that the UN team did a really good job in bringing new people, people that work on related issues, but that are not inside the Internet Governance community, bringing them to the IGF.  And in response to Mattia's points about the remote participation, just also note that Maria Paz has written in the chat how this has enabled us not just to be inclusive but to bring diversity of speakers to the table, and I think that helped with the high level sessions being so diverse as well.

Jennifer, over to you, and then Paul.  And I think we need to start moving ton to, I suppose, 3.2 and 3.3, if there are things that people feel we shouldn't do.  We have just over half hour left of our meeting.  Jennifer?

>> JENNIFER CHUNG:  Thanks, Anriette, I will be brief here because all my colleagues have made points I really do agree with.  I wanted to pick up on a point that Juliana put in the chat.  It's really interesting in the way how the chat closed the gap between the panelists and the audience and also keeping it mind in the webinar mode.  People spoke um more and I think it's really valuable for speakers, panelists even in high level sessions, in addition to workshops to be able to see the live feedback of the audience.  When we are in a physical space, of course, there are pros and cons but the cons I feel sometimes in past IGFs we have panelists and speakers on the stage and the spotlight and the audience is below looking up.  And usually there's not such an immediate and live reaction from your audience the whole time.

And I feel although the chat has runaway in certain sessions, it's valuable to close that gap, when the speakers and the panelists do pick up reactions from the audience and    and include it in their points.  I think closing the distance in the conversation feels more equal.  I think a lot of other participants mentions the inclusiveness and the people who are not usually able to come to IGF, be it resources, time zones or other commitments.

I think we really do need to think about this as we move back to quote/unquote normal to think about a hybrid approach that will allow really    really allow remote participation to not feel like second class.  It will become something that's valuable and even better than some parts of it, being even better than this community, being able to close that gap between people who are so called being on the stage, and people who are having the conversation on a level playing field.  Thank you.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Jennifer.  So this really is a key take away, that we want to meet face to face again but we don't want it to be as before.  We need to find a different way.  We need to find a way of being inclusive in using the platform, the online capacity for virtual meetings to    to not go back to the old way of remote participation.

So that's a very key takeaway.  And it won't be easy to achieve, but I think it's possible.

Paul Charlton.

>> PAUL CHARLTON:  Thank you, Anriette.  I would like to congratulate you and Chengetai, and how the meeting worked.  I don't know if others pointed out the guide to issues that    that was produced.  I    I, you know, promoted the IGF within my department and a number of colleagues who never attended an IGF before, did so this time, and they found the guide extremely helpful.  And I'm thinking perhaps for other participants as well.  So I think that was just    I think that worked very well and deserved recognition.

And I think    I think as well I would endorse Anriette, what you said, and you and Paul Rowney, and the hybrid nation and how we have to have different in person MAG meetings from now on, including the remote element more on a sort of equal footing.  And I mean we have a lot of time to discuss this as we get into 2021, and I think as always, it's going to be important to learn from other organizations and what they do, because, of course, our experience and having this challenge of combining in person and remote participation, I think it's useful for us to try to learn as much as possible as we can from other organizations on how they are planning to do that, as well as we consider what is unique about the IGF and what unique approaches we have to have to have hybrid meetings going forward.


Thank you.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks very much, for that, Paul.

Secretariat, what about your reflections?  You see things in a much more detailed way than the rest of us.  You also see things that we don't see because you are at the cutting edge.  Anything that you feel worked well or that didn't work well and that you would like to document for future reference? 

And I'm inviting all three of you, Sam, Wim and Chengetai and your insights are also really important.  Anyone want to take the floor.

>> SECRETARIAT: One thing, I will start it off.  One thing about this talk ever putting the virtual participations on an equal footing as the on site participants, I think it's    we should look at it very carefully, especially not just in participants but also for panelists because this year, we were able to attract quite a few people who may not have had the time, you know, to go to Katowice or wherever the next IGFs are going to be so participate.  So if we could have    work in virtual panelists as well, I    I think    and I think that's something that I will try to take up next year, even the high level or that we have put in there.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: That's a very good point.  I think the way the UK IGF is approaching this hybrid approach is to have some sessions that are face to face and some that are virtual.  That's actually another way of creating diversity, alongside having, you know, a mix of in person and face to face so there are different ways to combine this.  Any other comments for the UN DESA colleagues.

I would like to invite    because the guide was mentioned.  The guide to issues and themes, which this year, we actually started work quite late because it was an idea that only really emerged when we were beginning to look at outputs.  I'm glad MAG members like that idea.  Can the Secretariat share their idea.  How would you go about this differently next year and this is    I'm addressing here specifically, Sam and Sorina and Wim who are the primary authors of the guide.

>> SECRETARIAT: Anriette, sorry to mention that I have to go right now.  I have just been called away.  So I will just leave Anja to speak for me if somebody needs to speak.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: And Chengetai, sorry about that.

Yes.  Sam, did you want to take    yes, go ahead, Sam.  I see your hand.

>> SAMANTHA DICKINSON:  Not only talking about the guide but looking at the post documentation this year compared to last year, although we did that guide, in terms of session organizers and discussions there seemed to be kind of less emphasis on being part of each of those four thematic tracks.  I mean, I think partially that's because of the fact that this was an online event and this is the year of pandemic and so people's focus changed away from their original proposals.

But I think for next year, if we could kind of    I mean, obviously that guide was produced quite late.  If that can be produced earlier, so that it's informing the workshop proposal process, the development of the other types of sessions, that we can have those high level questions early, and integrated, I think that would very much help.  We tried through the thematic Twitter accounts to try and push those things, but because they were new, and there was just so much happening, it didn't quite work as well as it hoped.

But I think for next year, if we start    in the IGF starts earlier, the thematic concept might be easier to integrate throughout the process and therefore at the end of the process, streamline the sorts of outputs, in terms of the policy recommendations, and I will leave it to Wim and Sorina, if they have any other comments.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Sam.  Sorina, Wim, did you want to add? 

>> Hi, all, it's Wim speaking.  So add, well, mainly    mainly agree with what Sam said that a lot of the work in terms of reporting and whether it's social media or the use of social media, even the reporting afterwards, the messages, were a lot of things that were added on top, at the last moment.  Also adapted to the fact that all of a sudden, we had to go to a virtual meeting.

But I see a lot of opportunities to start collecting the information and direct information and that's probably exactly similar to what Sam said.  Really the right information from the beginning and whether that's the    when you develop or the MAG develops the description of the different tracks, or asks for the information for    on the proposals.  That all the information is there, that can just almost be copy and paste into the final documents we want, whether it's a preguide, whether it is a report or reporting on the website or whether it's    it's    yeah, almost ready to    for the Secretariat to turn outputs that come out    things that come out of the session into    into a summary or messages.

Because that's maybe    to add    that's lacking the link to the messages.  It's    there's also this year a lot of positive feedback on the idea that the IGF comes out with messages, but I think it's important also for the MAG and for all the participants and definitely the session organizers that the team that works on the messages is    is relatively small.  I mean, it's more than three consultants and the Secretariat.  We also get support from DESA and especially this year also from other colleagues from New York.

But in the end, the team is very small, and basic work has to come from the organizers who have to do work already, decide and clearly mention, look, these are the key points that came out of the out of our session and the Secretariat team, with the other colleagues can focus on comparing those bits and pieces that come    that are brought forward by the is session organizers and can work with those pieces and say, okay this is a point that comes back three or four times and probably, it's an important point to mention in our reporting.  And that's something different.  We have to follow as many sessions as possible to try to get a temperature in the different    in the different rooms, which, of course, when it's virtual meeting is even more tiring than in real life.

I think that's important lesson and something that could be very useful for the future.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Wim.  In fact, I would recommend that we look at revising our forms.  My feeling that we are dealing with workshop application forms and session report forms that were developed at, you know, a while ago and even though we have been adapting them we have retained the same data structure, especially the session report format, so it matches more closely what you put in the output documents.  I think it is important to look at what was just said but also the perspective from two things, the communication strategy and the media strategy, and secondly the forms, the forms that we still in, the session proposals fill in before and after.



>> SORINA:  I was just about to say what you said about the forms, especially for the reports.  That's the own thing I wanted to comment in addition to what my colleagues have said.  I think it would be indeed worthwhile to update the report templates and ask for a little less information and be more clear what we want from the session organizers and somehow convince them to submit the reports on time.

We need to really keep in mind whether people submit their reports and whether we consider them for a workshop at the next IGF.

Because I'm speaking and it's also related to the reports, a kind request for the MAG, whenever you are looking at these forms to also consider the gender report cards and see if there is anything that you could improve there.  There's new notes and comments in that regard.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, Sorina.  We need to look at the session feedback as well which is also quite long and complicated and not anonymous.  I think we need to look at the gender report card.

I was talking to Chengetai this morning about an evaluation and he said that in the past, the IGF did do a very short participant evaluation, an anonymous participant evaluation and that's something we could introduce for this year even, but definitely for next year.

And Anja, any thoughts from you?

>> ANJA:  Well, thank you very much.  I completely agree with all of my colleagues.  We internally were positively spurred by the participation records and that relates to the newcomers.  I personally thought the newcomers was dependent on the region that the meeting is being located.  And now with the meeting being completely online and the average number of newcomers corresponding to the on site meetings we have seen that that's not true and it's very fortunate that half the participants were either first time attendees or it was their first time attending the annual meeting, but not unfamiliar with the meeting.

We are also very pleased with how the youth engagement worked out in the end.  I think now, especially post meeting, we see that we managed to engage many new young people and that's something that is very positive.

The messages that were produced by young people are very important.  It's concrete and they are calling for action from the IGF for next year.  And we are already speaking to the host country team, and as soon as the MAG 2021 starts with their first meeting, we will be approaching the MAG and also their messages and possible action for next year for creating channels for young people to speak to senior experts and leaders.  I do agree that the reporting forms will be revisits.  That will be useful to even sure that we have less time consumer and more effective way for the session organizers to report back to us, 12 hours after the session ends so we can ensure the messages that are developed after are really bottom up.  I think Chengetai said at the beginning, we are seeing positive effects of the new stakeholders, large networks, the initiative organizations being involved.  Those are not additional participants of the IGF and that's long term very important to the project as well.

So maybe I will stop here, Anriette, because colleagues have said a lot that I agree with.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you very much, Anja.  The one thing that came out of the mini open mic that Chengetai and I organized.  Many of the youth said they loved the youth sessions but they didn't like that it was in parallel to other sessions.  And so that was something    they said it was hard to being in the youth track, versus being in one of the other sessions.  That's something that one might want to just consider in the future, doing that in ail slightly different way.

Anja, how do you feel about the NRI sessions and the NRI presence and participation.  My impression was that NRIs were more visible and people from NRIs and input from NRIs was more visible at this IGF than in the past, but that might just be because I participated in more sessions this career than I have ever before.

>> ANJA:  Thank you very much, for reminding me.  That was first point I wanted to make and I went over.

As NRI focal point, I was very satisfied with how the NRIs were portrayed in this meeting.  There was much more visibility in this meeting and I think that was due to the preparatory work and I want to thank the NRI coordinators.  It was very intensive work period for them.

The collaborative sessions, I attended all the sessions and they had a very good participation, very good discussions.  We were through those also engaged some colleagues that were moderating the sessions that not necessarily were traditionally involved in the NRI's discussions and I'm very glad because that supports the visibility of the NRIs.  Likewise for the main session, I think the main session as well content wise produced a very good substantive outputs and the messages that were produced after the session will definitely help to shape the next year's NRI sessions at 2021.

Overall, I'm very satisfied and I know the NRI colleagues as well, they received a lot of feedback.  Anriette, I know you have been actively participating in the sessions and not just in the sessions but the NRI's meetings in the leadoff to the IGF 2020 and I think that was also quite a success.  So all in all, good year for the NR Is in December and I will be writing to you, Anriette, we will conclude this year with the NRI's coordination session.  So that's going to be like an overall reflection to what's been done so far, and what needs to be done next year.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks a lot and I hope to be better in terms of NR Is next year than this year.

Adam, I note your hand.  But can we go to Luis, Luis, anything from you?  The person who was in the fire most of the time.

>> LUIS:  Thank you, Anriette.  You want me to speak now, there were many challenges, technical challenges that were behind the scenes and they were work very well, and preparing all the different sessions and where they can be collaborates with a different format.

And protecting the rights of the people at the same time and all data that will be    it created difficult challenges and then many sessions were conducted.  So I'm happen with those things and it was very much full because everything was online.  So everything was really on the cloud and normally on IGF, it's running from one room to another, and it's much more in the fire.  But, I mean, with the help    we have support from this.  We have been able to deliver, yeah.  Thank you.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you very much, Luis.  And I think you deserve a huge congratulations.  I know we were complaining about certain things and, you know, making points about this format and registration, but at a big picture level, it was technically a very, very successful IGF.

I think we had website down times only twice and those were very understandable.  They were just, you know too many people going into the site and the site was up very quickly again.  I think considering the scale of the event and the limited resources, I think the stability and the strength of our technical back end systems and support was really affirmed by this meeting.  So really huge congratulations to you, Luis.

I'm going to come to Denise at the end.  Adam, you had your hand up.  We have roughly 12 minutes leave.  If you want to speak, put your hand up or join the queue.

>> ADAM PEAKE:  Yes, two quite quick points, I think.  Well, three, actually, because I will say how outstanding the Secretariat is as it always is, but this must have been incredible    incredibly difficult and you have done an outstanding job again.  We always say the IGF is outstanding and better than the previous one, but this was just truly amazing and thank you, Anja and Luis and Chengetai and everyone.

Yes, I wanted to follow up on something that Anja mentioned about the IGF youth.  I was on the final call with them and I heard what was said about, you know, the nature of the parallel track.  I think that's something to watch for next year, but my question is will this group of 2020 be kept together?  Of course it would be nice to keep in touch with people, once they have had a useful engagement with thing IGF that they become part of it.

And being of course, I think we all began as youth once upon a time.  So the    you know, in two year,s or five years or ten years, they will not be youth but leaders in this community and I very much hope that we can keep involves with them and the second thing is really it's a congratulations, but it's a bit of a sad one.  It's to say thank you very much for the memorial to Marilyn Cade.  As someone from the technical community where Marilyn was very much, of course, involved, for me and many of our colleagues.  We know Marilyn very, very well.  But to see the level of appreciation from her from another community and incredibly deep.  I mean it was    it's a wonderful thing to read.

That was important.  And I don't want to suggest that there's a Marilyn Cade fellowship.  I don't want to say that we need some permanent memorial of some kind, but I think it might be something that the MAG could think about, what would be in sort of    what would her aspiration for this be going forward?  It's something to    I think I mentioned during the session, something to pay forward the work that she did.  In a rather positive way and we don't need a fellowship or another one of those.

But, yeah, thank you very much again, thank you, Secretariat, stunning.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks very much for pointing that out, Adam, I think we have already been thinking a little bit that and I'm sure Anja is thinking about that as.  With it was really a demonstration of how the IGF is this community of people, that that can work together and that can disagree together but that just honor and respects one another's efforts, you know, and I think it was    it was a very difficult experience for those who are close to her.  I think it happened in a way that says a lot of positive things about what the IGF has achieved. 

I don't see any further hands.

We are going to end with a good bye.  But I    now MAG members.  There are people on the call, that I want you to meet.  That's Denise and Wai Min and Juwang.  They are the people inside the UN that along with the Secretariat based in Geneva provides the infrastructural and other support including political support for the IGF.  I wanted to give them a chance to introduce themselves.

Denise has written in the chat, but the other two, if you are willing to, I will give you the floor and you can just speak.

Go ahead, Wai Min.  You are a little bit hard to hear.  Could you perhaps go a bit closer to the microphone.  That's better.

>> Okay.  Okay.  So I was just saying that on our director and Denise and myself, we are working in the same office.  Other normally behind the scenes supporting our IGF colleagues in Geneva.  Our role is to understand more from the debrief.

And as what some of you have alluded to, this is especially a big team effort, including colleagues from DESA in New York, and gentleman man.  I want to add a couple of points to what we can do better because I think there are many, many that outgoing and incoming MAG members have made that I will not repeat, about the level playing field.  I think that's really a big plus we have 6,100 registers participants is actually not expected.  We expected to cross 5,000 in the percent content, but not to that.  And according to Luis, we have month are than 20,000 connections on an average of 50 minutes.  So this is really a huge number.  Notwithstanding that some of these participants, they could just be participating in one or two of the workshops or select a session.

I think as a learning point for future IGF, we should not    we should also think of those participants who may just be interested in some or even just one of the many sessions in the IGF.

And while on the question of equal footing, no doubt we are able to attract a lot more remote participants.

At the same time, I would stress to say that it is not always equal footing.  That means that we actually have to get those who have tough good quality connection before they can actually participate.  So we did try through the IGF trust fund, thanks to donors like Germany to bring participants online, but that's always challenges even if we are able to fund the connectivity is just not available in some of those communities.  So I think just to echo Chengetai, we have to be careful to get    hybrid is not basically equal footing for everyone still, and not to mention about the time zone issue.  I would like to say that many of you would agree that we still need a physical IGF, because the networking impact of IGF, including through the IGF village, to realize the aims.  Back to you, Anriette.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thank you very much Wai Min.  I'm not sure if Juwang wants to add anything, if he's still with us.

>> JUWANG:  Hi, this is Juwang.  I have been listening very carefully and I'm sure we will be taking very careful notes and incorporate this into the lessons of this IGF.

If you allow me, I will actually use this opportunity to just say something for first part of this session, that's to thank the outgoing mag members and welcome the new MAG members and to thank you also.  For the outgoing MAG members, I want to say, you know, as you mentioned that once the MAG members, you don't disappear, and we really actually need this kind of multiplier and advocate role as we move ahead with the future sessions and we continue improving and strengthen the MAG and the IGF.

And for the new incoming MAG members we work with the chair to continues to preside with the work of the IGF in the MAG, and essentially to reiterate that in New York, we are here to support you.  Over to you, Anriette.

Congratulations to you and I know it was a team effort from you and the Secretariat, but I think this was the IGF that brought the UN into the IGF more than ever, ever before and I think that's a really important achievement.

Well, everyone, we need to say good bye.  So this is the part of the meeting I will just make the announcement first that we have our first call with the 2021 MAG, on the 15th of December.  So please look out for a note so give you the details of that call and there's an orientation next week for new MAG members that Chengetai has already scheduled.

On that note, I want to ask everyone to put on their cameras, particularly the outgoing MAG members.

So that we can just see one another and say good bye to them and thank them and we will really, really miss you and I will miss you.  I could not have done what I did without your support.  So please stick around.  And thank you and good bye.

Titti, I'm going to miss you so much.

>> TITTI CASA:  Thank you.  I will miss you as well.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: I'm singling Titti out because she helped me with the cochair.  I was pretty much the bystander.  Thank you everyone, put on your cameras.

>> Okay, bye bye.

>> Bye.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks, everyone, we'll see you again.  We will meet you again.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Bye.

>> Everybody, bye.

>> Good bye.

>> Bye bye.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Did you see Michael Nelson is with us, a very good example of a past MAG mile that doesn't go away.

>> Never, ever.  Thanks, Anriette, you did an amazing job, even at 4 a.m.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Paul, good luck with the Canadian IGF

>> Oh, thank you, Anriette, and thank you for participating by way of prerecording.  So    

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Thanks everyone and the meeting is closed and thanks for being here.  We'll see you again.

>> Thank you, bye.

>> Thank you very much, everyone.

>> Bye bye, friends.

>> Bye bye.