IGF 2021 – Day 3 – DC-SIDS The Pandemic Internet: Ensuring SIDS do not fall behind

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF virtual intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.



>> MODERATOR: Hello.  Welcome to your annual Dynamic Coalition on Small and Developing States round table.  This is our, I can't remember if it's our fifth, but we are moving well with round tables, and I would like to welcome all of you today, those who are on site and we at least have one person on site, June, who is in Poland, and I know she is freezing in Poland.

Hi, June.  I'm not sure who else is onsite, but welcome whoever is in that room, and we have quite a few people online.  This is the hybrid approach so everyone is being treated equally whether on site or online.

Given that the majority of us are online, we may have a bias to those online.  Welcome, I'm Tracy Hackshaw, I'm one of the Co‑Chairs or the coordinators of the DC SIDS.  I'm joined by my colleague Maureen Hilyard, which is my co‑coordinator, Co‑Chair.  Hi, Maureen.

I'm going to quickly get to it.  I'm going to share my screen just to show you the plan agenda if I could find it.  Just let me know if you are seeing this.  I have lost the screen.  Are you seeing my shared screen now?  I can't see it.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: Yes, we can see it.

>> MODERATOR: I'm doing the welcome now, I will toss to Maureen and because our Pacific colleagues are really, it's really early for them, we will ensure that we get Pacific agenda dealt with as quickly as possible in case our colleagues fall asleep, so get them dealt with.

And went we hopefully will have our Caribbean interventions.  Of course, as usual, we will have our discussion on the various issues.  So this is a fairly informal and unstructured approach.  As you know, we normally take it like this, and based on what happens in the discussions, the reports, we are going to be dealing with issues as they come up.  Without further ado, let me toss it back to Maureen, and I will stop sharing my screen and hand over to Maureen, take it away.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: Thank you so much.  Good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you may be.  It's interesting to sort of hear there are lots of online participants which is fabulous.

Thank you for being with us today.  My name is Maureen Hilyard.  I'm from the cook islands, and I'm a former member and Chair of the board of the Pacific Islands chapter of the Internet Society, and I'm currently the Chair of the at large advisory company of ICANN and I serve on several boards and Committees related to the Internet, but particularly to do with domain names.

My role, it's pretty minimal, but it's to, at this time to introduce you to the speakers that we have from the Pacific who will speak on activities we have been engaged in in the Pacific region during 2021 despite the pandemic.  And very much related to, you know, our theme which is to do with the pandemic and ensuring that the Small Island Developing States aren't left behind.

So without the benefit of any face‑to‑face meetings, we have been very fortunate in the Pacific Islands in that we have worked hard to maintain dialogues with each other by way of an active mailing list which ISOC members are listed to on becoming registered members of our, of our ISOC community.

And one of the things we have sort of often spoken about with respect to the Dynamic Coalitions is how do we maintain contact with each other, and I think that this mailing list has enabled our members to network, but also to participate in conversations and discussions on whatever topics of interest are raised and discussed by members from across the region.  This happens continually during the year.

So while we have not been able to meet in person, the Internet has provided us with a means of continuing contact and dialogue between our members.  And today I have with me, and I'm very, very pleased to be able to introduce some wonderful guests who are going to, who have had a significant impact on Internet development in our region., and especially during the time of the pandemic.

And my first speaker is going to be Cherie Lagakali who is from the Fiji Islands.  She is the Pacific liaison to the Global Forum of Cyber Expertise, the GFCE.  She is also on the Advisory Board of that organisation as well.  But tonight she is speaking as the Chair of the Pacific Island Chapter of the Internet Society and will give an overview of the PIC ISOC activities in 2021.

She will give an overview of what has been happening in the region with regards to our membership of our Internet Society.  A second speaker is a special guest, Andrea Giacomell, a very official title, but trade policy advisor for the permanent delegation for the Pacific Islands foreign Secretariat based in Geneva.

The Pacific Island forum is a group, is the regular gathering of the leaders of all its member countries from around the Pacific who make decisions relating to the 2050 strategy plan.

And Andrea has been part of an exciting E‑commerce initiative which came about after more than six months of public consultations which included the full range of stakeholders required to discuss how we might implement a more effective exchange of goods and services across the Pacific, something that is only done with a great deal of hassle, you know, involving currency exchanges, online purchasing, delivery of goods across the region.

The Secretariat in Geneva and Fiji work on behalf of the Pacific Islanders forum leaders, and they, we are very honored to be able to have Andrea with us during the session because to get an update on this important initiative.  So thank you very much, Andrea, for being with us.

I know that those are hoping we have another speaker from the Pacific Islanders forum, I'm not quite sure because it is so early in Fiji, but I know that she is, I just noticed in the legislation she is here.  And this is Alisi Tuqa from Fiji as well, another long‑term PIC ISOC member who in 2005 established the women in ICT research section, and Cherie has re‑established this group and it's active today.

Alisi, she was first of all the CEO of the Pacific Islands private sector organisation for several years before she moved to the Pacific Islands forum Secretariat where she is the program officer and team leader of the private sector development section.  She will update us on some of the other IT developments that the forum is engaged in with regards to their strategic plan.

And we have another speaker, the final of our formal speakers any way from the Pacific, and this is our current Pacific IGF MAG member, Dalsie Baniala who is from Vanuatu.  Again, a very active, has been very active in the PIC ISOC area and we are pleased to have her with us, but Dalsie Baniala was the former tell com radiocommunications and broadcasting regulator on Vanuatu and I believe she is the only Pacific woman to head this role in our region and she is amazing.

She shares her knowledge and expertise in relation to telecommunication and regulatory issues right around the Pacific as a consultant.  And she has been found to be very valuable in what she knows and what she can offer a lot of our Pacific nations.  So we are pleased to have her with us.

I would like to thank, before they even start, to thank our Pacific participants today for taking time out at an ungodly hour of the morning for them, but thank you so much, but all of these speakers are very, will be, the work that they have done is very much aligned with the topic of our discussion today which is to ensure that Small Island Developing States do not fall behind during this pandemic.

So I will start off then I will pass the floor to Cherie Lagakali who I also neglected to mention has just been appointed to the IGF MAG for this upcoming term.  So they will be joining Dalsie Baniala and others within the Pacific who have actually been in this role, and it's very important that we have the Pacific voice in the MAG.  And I June, I know, has been active for the Caribbean, and I think that that's, you know, we are very fortunate having these wonderful people representing us in the IGF.

So over to you, Cherie Lagakali, for your update.

>> CHERIE LAGAKALI: Thank you, Maureen.  Thank you, Tracy, for having me.  This is my second round table discussion.  I remember presenting like this about a year ago, and it is 1:00 a.m. in Fiji so forgive me if I fumble in my update.  I think ISOC started this year on a high note after I serious of discussions last year.  These were online virtually Zoom sessions with topics selected by the community, topics of issues and of relevance to the community where we invited speakers and had round table informal discussions.

Then because we had received the funding from ISOC, we were able to send out funding and support some of the activities that were happening on the ground in some of the Pacific Island countries.  So we sent funding to the Vanuatu ICTD.  We helped send funding for the Girls in ICT Day that was held in the Solomon Islands, and then Tonga Women in ICT relaunched later this year and we were able to send funding for that.

Then we had Pacific IGF, and Pakistan IGF had about 637 registrants from about 36 different countries.  We had nine in country hubs, what we call them, seven of the hubs had about, it was a four‑day event.  Seven of these hubs had as much as 100 participants at a time.

And the Pacific IGF session had about 124 speakers with 2,041 minutes of content.  Some of the takeaways from the Pacific IGF was the need to have more of these discussions to bring the community together for conversations for discussion and engagement.

There has been a lot of that, Fiji has been on lockdown for about six months, we have only opened to travel on the 1st of December.  Internet, the best thing about being on lockdown is that the Internet survived the lockdown here in Fiji, which was amazing because we had, big families had to adapt to working from home, and then we had to get used to Zoom calls and schooling online.  Fiji was not as practical as Samoa and Tonga last year when the pandemic first hit and Samoa and Tonga took their school and education content and put it online.

Fiji had a bit of catching up to do, so there were a lot of Zoom calls.  For example for me, I have a 5‑year‑old and 11‑year‑old, so in the morning I had four sessions for the 5‑year‑old and then I would have to wait, have an hour break before I had another one hour session for my 11‑year‑old and I had to adjust to getting myself to be up at night while they were sleeping so I could do some work.  So it was pretty hectic.

Around the region there has been a lot of collaboration discussions that, you know, the CERTs were having remote sessions, online training through PAC forum and there was a regional collaboration on the Get Smart Pacific program, and Cybersecurity Pacific was doing online safety sessions with police in country.

While Fiji was on lockdown, the rest of the Pacific Island countries were still open, still going to work although they did not have international travel.  Tonga had a little bit of a scare sometime just recently with some cases coming in from Christ Church, but it was only over four days, so business was on as usual in the Pacific Island countries.  And one of the things that the Pacific had to juggle with was there was, if you know that today's topic being ensuring that SIDS don't fall behind, that that was something that the Pacific did not suffer from.

In fact, there were so many online sessions, it was hard to keep up.  It was pretty much a clash of online sessions, you are coming out of one session, going into another session and people were suffering from Zoom fatigue.

People were probably sitting in front of their computers all day long and it was, it was a little bit worrying if you think about it because now that travel is probably going to normalize, the pandemic is not going to go anywhere.  So, for example if Pacific Island countries take the example of Fiji, then where 95% vaccinated and we open our borders, they opened to some of the countries that we call in the green list.  So travel is going to be allowed, and we are probably going to come to a situation in 2022 where there will be a clash of online events as well as in country events.

And we are probably going to have people coming to do work in Pacific Island countries at the same time Pacific Island countries will have to probably split, right now they are splitting teams between online sessions.  Half of the team is going to this session, another half is going to another session.  We are looking at in 2022, there might be a situation where a team has arrived from one of these countries that implement things in the region.

The teams on the ground in Pacific Island countries will have to figure out are they going to accommodate the people who have shown up or are they going to have to attend the sessions that they have registered for online, which is something to think about for next year.  With PIC ISOC, we worked with our board members, we have had to juggle working from home, being at home, juggling family.  We also, we got lucky, we got to be a part of the E‑commerce roadmap discussions that Maureen mentioned that has been organized for the Pacific Island Forum.

Through my role as the Pacific liaison for the Global Forum for Cyber Expertise in the past two years, I was able to help facilitate for bringing the Pacific together for a Pacific session.  As the Pacific liaison I have been analyzing and scoping for a potential GFC presence in the Pacific, and there is a GFC Pacific hub for capacity building coming in 2022.  And we just last week, we had a Pacific session we called it capacity building hour, what is your recipe for cyber capacity building in the region.  There were experts from the region, from the Pacific, now Asia is also part of it, just talking about what are some things that they have done that they found successful to implement programmes on the ground.

Also for 2022 Pacific ISOC has received grant funding from the UNDP for a first of its kind Pacific hackathon to be held December 23rd, 2022, and just today which, we have just received global conformation from the University of the South Pacific, we partnered with the university of the South Pacific for Pacific IGF in September, and we have just received confirmation that they are keen to collaborate with us to provide the venues as well as support for having the hackathon since they have done one locally before.

So we are looking forward to that.  But, you know, Pacific has not fallen behind.  We have actually been focusing on a lot of things in country, in Papua New Guinea.  We are working on the legislation, launching the digital transformation Bill, some more recently launched, so there is a lot of focus in country.  We are pretty excited about what's about to happen in 2022.  We are looking forward to it.

Also the back of your head worrying about how is everybody going to juggle trying to do things in country as well as adjust to online learn learning and collaborating.  That's it for me, thank you.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: Thank you very much.  It's only when you sort of get to hear what's going on, it's very exciting.

And, of course, looking at not leaving anyone from SIDS, letting them fall behind, and I think that Andrea's new initiative is definitely one of those opportunities that is being offered to the Pacific, and I have always been sort of like really, really interested in the initiative once it was established and promoting that within the region.

So I mean, and I know that these things don't happen overnight.  So progress, you know, for whatever it is, it would be really good to sort of like for people to sort of like hear where we are up to Andrea with regards to in initiative.  Thank you.

Andrea:  And just to remind us that COVID pandemic is not going to leave us.  Like you say I am wearing a mask because since last Friday, the Swiss Government imposed mandatory use of masks in office.  So we can concur that this is going to stay for a while.  But as my predecessor was referring to and also same way as the agenda referred to whereas COVID has impacted negatively on many aspects of Pacific Islands, it has also presented opportunities to increase the use of electronic means in our day‑to‑day transactions.

I was reading the latest report of PTI business survey, which is conducted monthly, which was showing a significant increase, for example in the percentage of businesses which use electronic means to sell their goods and services whereas at the beginning of the pandemic, we were at around 12% if I'm not mistaken, nowadays in the latest survey, 35% of businesses responded that they were using electronic means to support their  sale of goods and services.  With any challenge, we look at the opportunity side, not to lose track of, because that is where the future lies.

As far as my brief update is concerned, it's a pleasure to join the forum and provide updates on the Pacific E‑commerce initiative.  As the region premiere Political and policy organisation, the Pacific Island Forum main objective is to help its members to overcome their national constraints by promoting some forms of collective action.

I'm sure we can all agree that the benefits from collective or regional action aren't the greatest.  Whenever an issue requires sufficient scale to be addressed.  And there is no doubt the scale is required in many aspects of electronic commerce.  For example we can think about E‑payment system or E‑commerce platforms.  This is certainly one of the reasons why in 2020 foreign trade Minister decided to include E‑commerce as one of the four priorities of the Pacific 4K strategy.

It is linked to the development potential of E‑commerce, especially for a region like the Pacific, but also the Caribbean with their small population which is dispersed over hundreds of islands scattered across vast ocean space.  So by reducing the need for physical interaction, E‑commerce has the potential to address some of our most binding constraints, and in fact for certain industries, electronic commerce can completely eliminate the problem of distance.  We can think, for example, to the business process outsourcing industry.

A certain type of culture activities and even certain segment of the tourism sector.  I have heard, for example, even in the tourism industry, not necessarily in the Pacific, but during the pandemic, interesting forms of virtual tourism started with personalized way of doing tourism online.

So the Pacific E‑commerce initiative established by the forum members back in 2018 is the forum attempt to increase the regional readiness to trade electronically by promoting targeted collective actions.  As of December 2021, under the umbrella of this initiative, national E‑commerce assessments have been undertaken in 11 countries.  This diagnostic assessment which is freely available on our website and based on methodology developed by UNCTAD have informed the subsequent development of a regional E‑commerce strategy and roadmap, a strategy that PICSOC representative and more have strongly contributed to development.

The Pacific regional E‑commerce strategy and roadmap is the document embedding priority collective actions to improve E‑commerce ratings.  And as such represent true agenda for regional change.  This agenda was endorsed in August this year after having benefited from input by 174 stakeholders and validating at workshop attended by 250 participants.

Now, leveraging the UNCTAD methodology, the Pacific Regional E‑commerce Strategy and Roadmap prioritizes regional measures in seven policy areas which includes national E‑commerce readiness and strategy formulation, ICT infrastructure and services, trade logistics and trade facilitation, legal institution Article framework, electronic payments, and access to finance or E‑commerce.

In total, the strategy identifies 54 priority measures including one specific measure which is very much related to the work of PICSOC, which is the establishment of the dot Pacific domain, something we will have to look at in the following months.

So in total I was saying the strategy identifies these 54 priority measures which are costed at around U.S. dollar 55 million excluding the cost of infrastructure‑related measures.  Now, after approval of this initiative, after this journey which started with the diagnostic and which is now culminated in regional strategy, the Pacific E‑commerce initiative is entering its second phase which is obviously focused on implementation of the regional strategy and roadmap.

An implementation framework of the Pacific Regional E‑commerce Strategy and Roadmap is being established in this moment to ensure that the strategy is duly monitored.  The sources fourth implementation are mobilized and that partners are coordinated and regional ownership is maintained.

As part of this implementation framework, the PIC is in the process of establishing an E‑commerce unit with resources from likeminded development partners.  I do expect that the unit will be up and running by the second quarter of next year.  The Pacific Island Forum Secretariat is also implementing in this very moment some projects which are aligned with the measures recommended by the regional strategy and roadmap.

This includes the development of a Pacific E‑commerce portal.  Second, the development support to our members to develop national strategies which are based on methodology which is aligned with the strategy that we have used for the regional one, and thirdly, we are currently preparing a regional training program on E‑commerce for Pacific negotiators.  These activities of the Pacific Island Forum are in addition to all of the other activities that many partners of the Pacific E‑commerce strategy and roadmap are currently implementing to support E‑commerce readiness.

Now, by the end of 2022 we should have developed the first annual report on implementation of the Pacific Regional E‑commerce Strategy and Roadmap and obviously we will be happy to share further updates of this important forum if you would like us to do so.  With this, I thank you.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: Thank you so much, Andrea, and of interest to the ICANN people, Andrea mentioned that it was suggested that dot Pacific which isn't currently allocated yet, but that dot Pacific may be an appropriate domain name to be used for this initiative or for the forum, Pacific Island Forums to actually have to consolidate a lot of their initiatives under a Pacific domain.  Something to look forward to.

Moving on then, we don't want to use up too much more time but we have got, first of all, Dalsie Baniala who is our MAG member and just looking through the chat there has been interesting news just in the chat, but I will leave it up to you.  Thank you.

>> DALSIE BANIALA: Thank you, Maureen, and thank you for the invitation.  Can you hear me?


>> DALSIE BANIALA: Very good.  So first of all, yes, I have been a member of MAG.  My term is ended in 2020, however I am still involved in many of the Internet forums including Asia‑Pacific Internet forum, and Pacific Internet Governance Forum and I also want to contribute and update everyone on what and where the regulatory in the Pacific are heading in terms of Internet Governance.

So I think in my observation and my experience in the last three to five years, it was kind of very minimal involvement in Internet Governance, in the contributions and in part of discussions and also at least in the discussions at the policy level there is minimal mention of Internet Governance activities.

Since the pandemic has picked up in the past month especially in 2020, you will now realize that the regulators are also talking about Internet Governance.  How do we have to address going forward, especially looking at the regulatory aspect, but at the same time in the Pacific region, for example I think it's still too early to start off where is the right regime, you know, to come in and do the regulatory.  And I want to give an example.

For the Palau, I think it's too early to start off with regulatory into Internet Governance because there is a need for not just the uses, but also the decision makers and even the regulatory to be part of the discussions to understand the cope of Internet Governance.

And then coming back to Vanuatu, for example, Andrea has mentioned E‑commerce activities that are happening across the region, but at the same time, there is a, not just a call, but a flag raising up, okay, we can move forward with E‑commerce activities, but whether we are prepared with our whether we are prepared with rules for privacy, whether we are prepared with cybersecurity rules to guide the E‑commerce activities, and interestingly it's now becoming very crucial in the regulatory discussions in comparison to the last three years ago, which is not very much discussed at the regulatory.

And I am very pleased to see that happening.  It's maybe because of the pandemic, but I think it's more than pandemic, it's also to do with the business and people starting to realize the importance of making online businesses.  It's also interesting to see that in some of the island nations, they are also pushing forward with what sort of framework is appropriate, you know, to cater for the E‑commerce activities.

I will give you an example for Vanuatu.  So Vanuatu came up with a national digital governance roadmap that is an example of the preparation to welcome the E‑commerce businesses.  But it's not easy because, again, it's not every stakeholders understand the overall scope of a digital roadmap governance.

That is where the balance is.  That is where people and especially the organisations, for example I will give the Ministry of Trade for Vanuatu.  Because Ministry of Trade is leading E‑commerce, and then there comes this question about the digital governance framework.  How do we address this going forward?  Who is responsible?  Is it under the regulatory?  Is it under the Government or the Prime Minister's office?  All of these are some of the issues and the questions, big questions we are asking each other especially at the regulatory and policy level.

Then at the same time, yes, we know that the usage of Internet, for example in terms of meeting is really skyrocketing, but I think as only to the people that they have proper access to Internet.  And people in rural areas are still disadvantaged because the access is not that appropriate, it's not reliable.

So they are left behind so some of the important information that they are required to also be part of, and for countries like the Island Pacific, I think not many of the countries they experience the very bad effect of, like, in terms of traveling, I will give an example in Vanuatu, yes, we do have the restriction and the borders are closed, but at the national level, we are not restricted.  We can travel from one island to another, but because of the economy and because we rely on tourism, we are also imparted to travel from one island to another, which means that we have to have a reliable access to Internet in order for us to make use of education, of health, of tourism activities virtually.

So I mean, yes, the pandemic has given us both positive and negative experiences, but there are some questions there that how can we work together and help us to move forward.  So I will stop here.  Thank you, Maureen.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: Thank you so much, Dalsie, and I think that is a good segue into our final speaker, Alisi who works with the Pacific Island Forum as I mentioned which is the Government side of things, the decision makers, and what, how they are employing, what their goals are in employing ICTs within the region.  So over to you.

>> ALISI TUQA:  I won't take long, in fact, very, very brief add on to what Andrea has said.  I want to provide background to some of the complementary work going on in ICTs in the Pacific.

Maureen in introduction briefly touched on the 2050 strategy, so I guess quickly highlight what that is.  Some years back in 2019 the Pacific forum leaders agreed that we needed to recommit, I guess, as a region working together achieving a renewed vision, so they came up with the concept of developing a 2050 strategy for the blue Pacific continent.

It is long term strategy to ensure future security of the people of the Pacific.  This has been considered in the early part of next year.  So there is a draft that's been circulated to members to be endorsed by leaders next year.

One of the key pillars of this strategy is technology and innovation, recognizing that this will be a very important driver of change.  I think if anything the pandemic and how we have worked, communicated and interacted the last 18 months has really reinforced that as has the speakers before me.  I guess we want to see how we don't look back or don't turn back, and that we need to ensure that all efforts going forward are channeled to building on this momentum and the intake of ICTs, the Internet, and online use and activity.

So the development of the 2050 strategy and the strong links to ICTs and E‑commerce is essentially founded on the knowledge and recognition of several things and over several years as the forum, secretary and regional organisations have taken work in the ICT space and one fundamentally has been growth in emerging technologies which has prompted, and which has been accelerated by.gov COVID as many have recognized.

And for the Pacific, I think that's brought to the fore the ICTs, skills and capacities needed across the region whether in the public or private sector.  That's almost a gap an Alice.  And one that comes straight to mind is online learning or online schooling, having seen kids doing face to face learning and having to shift, I think none of us were quite ready for that.  So there is still lots of lessons to be learned from that.

The second is capitalizing on technology for trade employment in the private sector.  That's been so crucial, has been and will continue to be so.  I think the pandemic has really shown us that.  We have seen how it's affected supply chains and Andrea made reference to the Pacific trade service that comes out each month and that's something that listeners may be keen to follow up on.  We have seen supply chains affected and we have seen businesses and customers move to online interface so that's brought to the fore the important work that's been undertaken in E‑commerce, for example how that's key to where we wanting to go here in the region, but at the same time E‑commerce focuses on online trading, there are other complementary policy work that needs to take place from an economic perspective.

That's really in relation to banks, for example there are lots of challenges in the Pacific when it comes to digital financial services, you know, Internet, banking, payment platforms particularly for businesses and what's available to them.  So looking at ICTs and E‑commerce that's really a big ticket item.

We know that financial technologies such as Blockchain and AI, these were some of the issued raised at the Pacific IGF in September this year, how they can enhance efficiency and availability of trade finance and particularly for SMEs in our region.  So we are looking forward to working with and collaborating with the network of IGF members across the world who may be able to provide expertise or support in this area.

Thirdly, in the absence of national policies, there is a big reliance on regional frameworks for support and that's where organisations like the forum Secretariat and regional agencies including networks like PIC ISOC, the role is important to address collective issues.  So in July this year our foreign trade Ministers endorsed the development of a Pacific regional private sector strategy.  That's something being developed over the coming months to complement the 2050 strategy.

So that's looking at business competitiveness of Pacific businesses and looking at expanding trade opportunities, but at the heart of this Pacific regional private sector strategy will be ICTs, technology, and innovation that will be really a strong feature going forward.

So participating in a forum like this is really key for us.  Fourthly is promoting regional public services using digital platforms to reach citizens.  I think that's where the network and support of IGF and the work you are doing is really fundamental to the work we are doing and complexes the work we are doing because it promotes greater participation and citizenry.  It opens up doors for local, national and regional calls to action, so we are looking forward to seeing how we can work with Maureen and the people in the countries like Dalsie, for example,.

>> And lastly to highly that the forum Secretariat has recently reengaged with ICANN GAC and that's to support the forum members and Internet Governance issues and this is key to promoting regional public services using digital platforms to reach citizens so we are looking forward to seeing how we can work with yourself and things like Saavi who ICANN in braise pain and also listing as part of that network.  Happy to take any questions if anyone has any.  Thank you.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: Thank you so much, Alisi, and everyone thank you so much for that very broad perspective of what is happening in the Pacific.  And I hope that this growing number of people who are joining us at the moment, you know, get a good picture and I think she have gotten a good picture of how we are actually sort of like developing.

And as has been mentioned, the COVID situation and the more intense use of the Internet has probably made more things happen than hasn't in the past when we have relied so much on the face‑to‑face, the interaction is a lot greater.  So I will now pass over to Tracy and get the Caribbean perspective.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Thank you very much Maureen and friends and colleagues from the Pacific who have given us a lot to think about, and especially this structural approach to doing E‑commerce and E‑commerce strategies within the Pacific region.  I think that's been something that we could certainly learn from in the Caribbean, but also all of the interventions on what's been happening with PIC ISOC, Pacific IGF, and the regulatory environment that Dalsie Baniala has provided as well.

I do appreciate it and I think that from where we sit as I was trying to explain in the chat, the Pacific Islands forum Secretariat is analogous to what we have in the Caribbean called CARICOM, when is the Caribbean community.  Also has a Secretariat as well.  They also have activities and projects.

What's also interesting is that they have a multilateral body which falls within the CARICOM system, I don't know if that's a word to use, called the Caribbean Telecommunications Union who is dedicated to looking after ICT activities.

We are quite lucky to have on our meeting, we have the Secretary‑General of the CTU, Rodney Taylor, and we also have Nigel Cassimire who was been convening the Caribbean IGF for the last, I don't know, 16 years accordingly.  What I will do without trying to take up too much time and summarizing and so on, and I'm hoping that colleagues can stay up for this as well, I will ask Rodney, I think I prepped Rodney so maybe he is ready to speak without surprising him.  Rodney, if you are willing to come on with your audio to give us an introduction and you can introduce Nigel to give us aspects of the Caribbean IGF.  I will put Bevil Wooding on notice to give us perspectives from the Caribbean on behalf of Aaron and or himself depending on what approach you would like to take.  So first, Rodney, go ahead.

>> RODNEY TAYLOR: Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak briefly on what is happening from our perspective here in the Caribbean.  As you mentioned the CTU, Caribbean Telecommunications Union is the regional intergovernmental body established by CARICOM Member States initially as far back as 1989 to discuss the harmonization of telecommunications policy within CARICOM countries and since then the technology has evolved to the point we are now looking at a range of issues, most recently the method works which has everybody excited about the opportunities and in particular for Small Island States.

So you mentioned the CIGF, and we have been convening the CIGF for a while.  Nigel is on the call and he is Mr. CIGF, and we held this year from the 24th and 25th of August.  The theme was in fact around COVID and priorities for post COVID ICT‑driven development.

So COVID has been obviously the dominating force.  It has highlighted the deficiencies, the digital divide in particular impacting our youth in relation to access to education because of lack of connectivity or the lack of affordability of the Internet as well as devices and so on, and even digital skills of our teachers.

So there are a number of initiatives that are taking place, but I want to just speak briefly about what were some of the things discussed within the CIGF.  We were pleased to be able to establish a partnership with the Alliance for Affordable Internet.  A4AI and we held an extensive workshop around affordability and meaningful connectivity.  We highlighted the need for better research to identify the gaps, the need to establish affordable and meaningful targets that would help to inform, and for policy interventions to help in areas such as device affordability, affordability of data and services, digital skills and content focusing on closing the digital gender gap.

Some of the policy recommendations included a plan to have input from a diverse and representative set of players across the private sector, private sector and civil society to develop a plan to address these gaps, to agree on targets across the various countries of the CARICOM Member States, and to establish funding commitments for transparent assessment and review every year.

So in addition to the partnership with the A4AI we have standing partnerships organisations, we have a long standing relationship with ICANN, with LAC NIC and others, Internet Society which has been instrumental in driving a lot of the ISOC chapters throughout the region and those chapters have been instrumental in hosting national IGFs, and ISOC has been instrumental in conducting research to understand activity gaps.

They have been advocating for community networks to bridge the gap for rural communities that have, that don't have a meaningful connectivity, and this is an area that they have even provided funding for NGOs that are interested in doing research or building community networks.

We have been at the CTU in terms of the broader global discussion around Internet Governance, we have been seeking to strengthen the voice of SIDS, and I'm very pleased with the work you have done in this area, Tracy, in terms of highlighting and building that coalition of SIDS within the IGF.  We are seeking to do the same thing, to build that within SIDS ICANN process, for example, and we presented to the Global Stakeholder Division within ICANN.

I have had several conversations with representative who actually happens to be on the call, Mr. Albert Daniels in how we can increase regional participation within not just the gap but across the ICANN communities and we recognize that there is significant lack of resources.

There is a small group of players within the region and I think the same can be born out in the Pacific Islands.  So how can we build, and how can we strengthen the voice of SIDS.  We know that there is a mechanism within ICANN for underserved regions, but SIDS itself is not considered a region, and, therefore, special consideration needs to be given based on research and to how we can improve.

ICANN recognizes while I can't speak on behalf, there is a strategic plan that does acknowledge that there is a risk to the multi‑stakeholder model if in fact Small Island Developing States don't have a voice in the table or at the table for whatever reason, lack of resources, lack of interest, whatever the reason is, there is still a risk.  We need to address that risk if we are to have meaningful participation of Small Island Developing States.

Nigel, if you are on and you want to fill any gaps that I have left out and I'm conscious of the time as well, so that sort of is a broad‑over view of where we are at the next.

>> NIGEL CASSIMIRE: I am on.  I will say a few words about the CIGF, the contribute Internet Governance Forum, and we had Caribbean Internet Governance Forum and over the years we have kind of developed a formula for the IGF, for the CIGF which basically allows for information sharing among different organisations within the, different national IGFs within the Caribbean and also with the UN IGF, and the LAC IGF as the case may be.  So there is a session related to that.

We also are most proud, I think, of our key product out of the CIGF which is the contribute than Internet Governance policy framework and overview framework that articulates a vision, a mission, and policy priorities for the Caribbean and Internet Governance.

So part of the work of each CIGF is to update this development progress year after year.  We always have at least one workshop for that.  Another workshop we had involved the Internet organisations in the Caribbean, the ICANN, ISOC, ARON, LACNIC that have been mentioned to look at, say, developing Internet data sets for the Caribbean, for the development of that.  And there is follow‑up action going on in that regard.

Part of the work is also to deal with what we see as the hot topics in Internet Governance at the time and Rodney made mention of those.  And we realized a need to keep the work going in between our fora, notwithstanding that the forum is the main consensus, confirmation effort that we have.  We have also established an online discussion forum on the CTU website.  We have some work to do in terms of getting it as vibrant as we want it to be, and we do have some capacity availability challenges there that we are working on in the very short term.

So hopefully we will be in in a situation whereby initial to the annual fora, we will have Internet Governance discussions going on and progressing through the Caribbean in the intervening period of time.

So I will stop there for the moment.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Thank you very much, Nigel and thank you very much Secretary‑General Rodney.  Rodney is such a colleague of ours that it's a challenge to call Rodney SG, but I think I have to give the respect that he deserves.  SG Rodney, I think that's a nice hybrid of the two.  Thank you very much for that very, very, I think very thoughtful perspective on how we can work both in the Caribbean and together in terms of trying to understand each other in multiple fora as Rodney says, perhaps in the ICANN fora we need to do more than just be there.

Certainly, you know, there is strength in numbers and certainly if we wanted to have our voices heard in this Internet Governance space, showing up in greater numbers as a collective is a good opportunity and for Nigel in terms of the Caribbean IGF, we keep saying it that the Caribbean IGF was in fact the first IGF even before the global IGF.

It was held before the actual first global IGF.  I'm not sure if many people know that.  So that's why it's 17th, whereas I think we are on the 16th IGF and the global IGF.  And that Caribbean IGF has been really working hard given the challenges.  I know the Pacific IGF has the same challenges to sort of bridge the divide across the islands and the approach that LAC Pacific IGF is to try and do the IGF in an island, preCOVID in a particular country.  And where possible bring others from other islands into the country when that happens and focus on the country and the expertise at that point in time, bring in remote participation when necessary, but then share the knowledge and expertise thereafter with the various outputs and outcomes that come out of it.

I think one of the things we have talked about before that I think to activate is something akin to SIDS IGF.  I don't mean to make it sound ridiculous, but this is what we are doing here is effectively the start of it.  It would be useful if we could collocate perhaps even within the UN IGF or separately to collaborate across the water because as many of you are aware are hearing our challenges and concerns are very similar across geographies.  So it's not just about geography.  It's about common historical backgrounds, common economic backgrounds shared experiences and I think that's something we need to push forward and really tie that together.

Unfortunately, pandemic has created the challenge of working in terms of how all modalities aren't working as well as they should, but given that we are working remotely, we should use the opportunity to do this more and not just talk about it, maybe we should just do it.  And given that we have folks from the Pacific Island Forum and from the CTU here, perhaps this is a good opportunity for you to touch base with each other and work with the DC SIDS to get something like this going.  SIDS IGF 2022, count me in.  I think that's, I'm happy to hear that.  I want to hear an amen from the Pacific.

Bevil Wooding, I will put on alert, and I think Nigel and Rodney put Albert on alert.  So I think what we can probably do now is get some insight from Bevil Wooding and Albert and after that what I would propose we do is open the floor to have input from the wider DC SIDS round table and I will ask June, June has said there are people in the room which is quite interesting in Katowice, if there are any questions or input from the room as well.

So first, I will hand over to Bevil Wooding for his input and then Albert you can jump straight in.  Go ahead.

>> BEVIL WOODING: Evening, morning, I want to start endorsing that idea for some form or forum for this discussion to go even deeper.  So much of what has been shared by the Pacific colleagues resonates extremely well with us here in the Caribbean.  These are common experiences, and these are also common models that apply perfectly to the dynamics that we are seeing across the region.

One of the things that I think everyone will recognize is how much the pandemic has put a spotlight on the work that we have been doing over the past many years, and there is an appetite for coordinated approaches because of what has been exposed in terms of the gaps that exist in terms of the vulnerabilities that we are subject to, and I this I also in terms of the fact that when it comes down to it, resilience and security depends on local or indigenous capacity development.  And one of the travel restrictions really emphasized the fact that we need people on the ground maintaining the system set up for digital economies and knowledge‑based societies.

That's a good thing because it means the work we have done hopefully you can see now has found its time and it's place.  And I just want to use that to give an update on the areas where either as ARN, and I'm not quite sure if my colleague from APNIC is on the call, but I wanted to share interesting things happening in the other related areas, SG Rodney will have put his finger on the increasing collaborations between the Regional Internet Registries, ICANN, ISOC and some of the regional bodies like CARICOM to ensure that there is a coordinated approach going forward.

There are four things that I see as emphasis that are noteworthy for this conversation.  One is the emphasis on research under recognition that the way to engage those of us who may have been ambivalent or less outright and concerned is to put in front of them is the number, what is qualitative or quantitative, an indication of the state of the Caribbean Internet which was the name of a symposium we kicked off in 2019 before the pandemic that was intended to trigger very specific research on areas of Internet development and Internet Governance using Caribbean models but based on national practices, most notably the OECDs, digital agenda framework for research.

That exercise is now in the hands of, I think, between the CTU and some of its regional partners and the idea that we would be taking a very deliberate effort in the coming year to put out some of the research material and some of the findings to better inform decision making.

I think we have gotten to the point in the Caribbean where the same story is on repeat, the same messages are on a recurring cycle and now the trigger, if we have to build on the attention, the trigger has to be very clear metrics that define the next step of regional action.

The second emphasis I have seen, this is on all fronts, whether it is the looking and listening to noises coming out of the public community or on the public policy side listening to conversations amongst Governments, there is a renewed interest in funding and financing mechanisms for supporting innovation or ITT‑based ecosystems.

There are business ideas, product and digital service ideas, what there is is a glaring lack of the supporting environment for those ideas to really take root and go into proper full and sustainable enterprises.

So the UECLAC as well as central banks in the region are looking particularly at this issue of funding innovation ecosystems and that's a very important development that is taking place.

There is a report that is due out at the end of this year that will indicate some of the findings of one of the surveys that were done, but, again, listening to the reports coming out of the Pacific, I do not believe that those findings will be fundamentally different from the findings that came out of similar studies in the Pacific, nor do I believe that the recommendations will be widely from those recommendations that we heard earlier.

This is one of those areas in which the innovators will innovate, but they cannot create public policy.  They cannot mobilize levels of funding necessary to build and establish those kinds of businesses.  And so this issue of the emphasis on funding and financing, this, I think, is a very positive step we are seeing coming out not just in the financial services sector, but a lot of the Governments as well.

The third and fourth areas would be very common to all.  One is the emphasis on capacity development, the shortage of skilled, particularly digitally literate workers to support this accelerated movement online everything, online services, schools, businesses, et cetera.  To really put that spotlight on it and the spotlight when you shine it goes to the education system.

And we have seen in the OECS, we have seen it very specific and now over one year of consultations looking at what needs to happen all the way to primary school level if we have to create the generation capable of leading our digital charge into the future.  But, of course, it also affects the work that CARDNOG is doing with the technical community, that CTU is doing with Member States and capacity development is not just technical skills, it's awareness, leadership awareness, understanding how the dots connect, understanding what the overlapping areas and that work and the design of those capacity building development programmes are not the purview of my one organisation.

But having a conversation like the one we are having here, helps the various groups to synchronize approaches and I think that's the thing that I'm seeing emerging is at least the inclination or the desire to be more synchronized in the approach to tackling some of these complex and nuanced issues.  And the last area I want to put my finger on in terms of emerging or renewed emphasis is the emphasis on Internet infrastructure.

This is a common one for this group.  We have spoken for years about the Ned need for critical infrastructure, Internet Exchange Points autonomous networks, et cetera, and we are at the point where we are in what we can call our second or third wave of emphasis on Internet infrastructure.

There is a massive push now to look at existing Internet Exchange Points and create new Internet Exchange Points.  There is interest in optimizing intersection agreements between commercial service providers but non‑commercial network operators into the mix of the content, and so content and digital services can be moved within countries and across region.

This is an excellent development we are seeing.  More work needs to be done, but the process is thankfully on the way.  And, again, spearheading it would be organisations like the CTU, and with the support of the regional net registries and the other IOs that do their business in the region.  So I think if you look at some of these, what you can see is greater recognition of the need for more integrate approaches towards Internet and Internet development, and more generally toward development, because Internet development is designed and it's supposed to facilitate in that region, and we are seeing that recognition translating itself at the ministerial level at the private sector level and among civil society.

So I just wanted to bring those trends that we have seen over the last 12 to 18 months here in the region, and to again endorse the benefit of the forum for changing ideas and sharing experiences.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Before I go to Albert, there is someone in Katowice that wanted to intervene.  Before we sum up what you said and go to Albert, I know there is a question.  Maybe I could toss to June in Katowice and there is someone that wants to speak.  I think I am seeing him on the screen.  Go ahead., introduce yourself, I don't know if the mic is open, so go ahead.  The mic is not open our side.  We can't hear you.  Can a technical team open the mic for the room, please?

>> AUDIENCE: Good morning, everybody.  Thank you for hosting the session.  I'm very, very happy to attend.  I'm from Africa, and I think that we also have the same issue with you people in the Caribbean, and what maybe I would suggest if it's possible to build a bridge between us, Caribbean and Africa on some specific issue which are common to all of us.

That was my contribution.  I thank you very much.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Can you say who you are.

>> AUDIENCE: My name is, I'm sorry, I forgot to introduce, Dunad from DRC.  I'm a member of the civil society group, and members of African Group on IGF.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Thank you very much.  You can reach out to us, DC SIDS, and that would be a great opportunity, I think, and you can give June your contact information and she could share with us.

Thank you so much.  Is there anyone else on the floor?  Let's do the hybrid thing and involve, interestingly enough the remote has overshadowed on site for a change.  So let's see if there is on site.

>> AUDIENCE: Hello.  My name is Patricia Espinosa from Mexico.  I am representing the GRULAC region here at the IGF from the private sector, and certainly for us it's a great pleasure to see how you are facing the different challenges that you have and, of course, we are looking for build up a prosperous region here which voice can be heard at these levels, at these levels of discussions, and as one of our colleagues mentioned, this is an important opportunity for us to not only learn from best practices already ongoing in the EU or at the, in North America, but also how are realities and how the perspectives of our economies can be represented in this decision making process of data framing, data relations, cybersecurity, detailed human rights, how to support for the deployment of infrastructure and so on.

And just by keeping together and changing this kind of experience I think is the only way how we can make it possible to succeed as a group.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Thank you very much, and I think the message really is collaboration and sharing and really trying to find a way to as you said build those bridges, and that's sort of echoing, looking back to Bevil Wooding.  It's a hybrid room.  So looking back to what Bevil Wooding said in terms of the overall way we need to work together, and the fact that the commonalities are very clear.

It's entirely possible as Bevil Wooding has quite already suggested that the reports will look similar when you produce them on paper.  The research frames, the challenges, and hopefully the solutions.  So why do we do all of these things independently?  We certainly need to work together and share this, and as we said before, there is a significant strength in numbers, and I think if we forge this relationship across our countries as has been happening on the climate side for the SIDS, on the IG side I think we will be a force to reckon with.

And we can share knowledge, expertise and experiences, and as Rodney was saying earlier, in terms of getting these voices heard and to avoid the fatigue of those currently in the trenches doing the work, I know Carlton is here and he has been speaking about this for several years, we can get that message across and get the inputs in both from a wider catchment pool, from a deeper pool, and certainly from the newer members that may come up through that pool.

I know Deirdre wanted to go next.  So I know you had something to intervene with.  So please proceed.  Deirdre is not in Katowice.

>>  DEIRDRE:    Deirdre is speaking from a civil society point of view, and Deirdre wants to remind people that the ones that are being left out, in Saint Lucia, we have an old Calypso, I go sing for the Maalowe.  They don't have a voice in this particular space because very often they don't have technology capability, and the fact that they can't keep up at school because don't have a device to the Internet breaks down and it has gun to be having that doesn't matter, and it does matter.  It matters a lot.

I go back a long way, I go back to Joanie Mitchell in the 1960's and looking at things from both sides now, could we please, please remember to look at the technology from both sides so that we see the bad things as well as the good things, and can we please balance the whole world together in our perspective.  Zoom is wonderful.  Facebook, social media is wonderful.  Everything is wonderful, and it uses an awful lot of electricity and an awful lot of power.  And we don't seem to think about that.  We want the classes to be, let's do classes on Zoom, let's jump on line with teaching.

I'm a teacher, it doesn't work.  You can't just jump online.  My question is how much is this group in SIDS keeping in mind it's Malowe and for those that don't speak Creole, the Malowe are the disadvantaged of the world.  Thank you.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: I know Deirdre has been speaking about this for several years in terms of those who are, you know, we talk about as a group that we are underserved as SIDS, SIDS as islands, but within our own countries there is quite a substantial Digital Inclusion problem that we need to solve, a digital literacy problem as well.  And, of course, the physical issues of infrastructure and devices and essentially skills.  So I think that's something that in this SIDS IGF maybe that's something that we need to put on the table as a way to how we solve those problems.  Time is running rapidly out on us and I do want to take as many inputs as we possibly can.

I do know I had Albert on standby.  So, Albert.

>> Albert:  I'm the global stakeholder engagement representative from ICANN the Internet corporation for sign names and numbers.  I cover the Caribbean.  I'm also in Saint Lucia now, so I can very highly relate to the situation of what we refer to as the Malowe, I think it's interesting that that comment came, from an ICANN perspective and from other international organisations we can look at the Malowe as some of the voices which are not being heard as far as they can be currently.

We note at ICANN the similarity and challenges between the different territories of the SIDS, the Caribbean, the Pacific and Africa.  We also note the opportunities that SIDS have to influence policy by having their voices get to the next higher level.  At ICANN we have a very specific focus on names and numbers, but we also have the focus of trying to get the voices which have not been heard to impact on policy and as Rodney, as you, Rodney, quite correctly pointed out there is a risk that if these voices do not speak, then the very legitimacy of policy can be questioned which is why we are always looking out to see how we can increase the diversity of voices that come into the overall discussions.

And we are seeing an increasing move towards this group as SIDS having their own distinguished recognized voice, particularly within ICANN.  ICANN likes to be seen as a very responsive and sensitive entity to the voice of stakeholders, and coming out of some comments in our recent meetings, the last two meetings, we are now on a very specific project where we are collaborating with the CTU to see how we can get the voices of the Small Island Developing States to feature more highly and more effectively within the ICANN context.

This is a project which has the visibility at ICANN and I'm talking about the Chairman of the Board, the Vice President for Africa, Vice President for the Pacific region and also the Vice President for Latin America and the Caribbean, and the first step we are embarking on now is to do a little bit of that research that Bevil Wooding spoke about in identifying clearly, you know, what are some of the challenges that stakeholders from the SIDS have in participating in ICANN?

What are some of the opportunities?  What are the areas of interest?  So we have the stage where we are working with the Caribbean telecommunication Union to issue a sort of survey, get hard data on what these areas and key points are so that we can then craft actions which hopefully will chart a path for getting Small Island Developing States to be a little bit more active in ICANN, a little bit more recognized through collaboration in what is going on.

Alisi made a comment about opportunities for collaboration between Caribbean, Africa and Pacific certificates and it is within this sort of vein that we are now embarking on this new project with our SG Rodney.  I hope I said it correctly.  So we are looking forward in ICANN to this new era in SIDS participation within the ICANN community which I suspect will benefit other areas where the SIDS are participating in as well.

Thank you, Tracy, for the opportunity for these few words.

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: Thank you very much, Albert.  I think that's a good, really good start for perhaps structured SIDS work in the spaces that go out of the IGF space and others.

I'm happy that the SIDS have in some way catalyzed this and I think Maureen and I will take some of that credit for ensuring that we get this to move.  Maureen, I want to toss back to you so that you can sort of kind of give us some final remarks and close it off.

I know there may have been one or two other inputs coming in from the room, so if anybody comes in while you are speaking perhaps you can field those as well.  You have three minutes left, Maureen.

>> MAUREEN HILYARD: This has probably been the most diverse discussion we have had within this, and I think that I was very pleased to sort of like get the contributions not only from the grassroots with the Internet Societies but similarly right through to Government, like, I mean, what are your Governments doing in your regions and as we are within the Pacific, but this is the first time we have actually had that input from Government level.

I'm so pleased that Alisi was able to provide us with area, we have always known that our Governments melt, just as I'm sure, was it the CARICOM or something that is your Government group.  We have always know that they met, we just didn't know what they actually spoke about.  So being able to have that input into is absolutely superb.

The biggest take away I got and I'm sure Tracy and I will definitely work on it with the Pacific IGF and the Caribbean IGF, there must be some way in which we can actually get some sort of collaboration going because as you said, there are common, there are common issues.

And it's really important that we sort of like look at how we can actually make, I mean, the IGF is not the place for solving the issues of the world or coming up with any, but there is probably one thing that we will definitely take away is that we must meet more regularly.  We must sort of engage on specifics.

And there are so many things that have come up.  And I sort of feel for Deirdre with her concerns and I know that they have been for years the concerns how do we address the needs of the people who are the disadvantaged groups and we have so many within our Pacific communities.

So we need to sort of like, it's got to be a focus area for us.  And education and health and all of the other, you know, the access to the technologies that we are actually expecting people to use, but we are not giving them the wherewithal to do it.  That is my take away any way.

Do you want to add something in the final second?

>> TRACY HACKSHAW: I think we are going to get cut off shortly by our technical team.  Quickly can we do our group photo, so for those who are in a position to put up cameras, throw it on and let's try and get some of this, let's try and do a hybrid photo, yes.  Let's try this.  So I got one.  I got another one.  Smile, everybody, take a smile.  I'm taking the picture.

  All right.  I think I got a picture of those who seem to have their cameras on.  I would like to thank everyone for joining us today and for really participating fully in our session, and really, I think this is as Maureen said one of our most diverse opportunities that we had, including we got some great Government/interpretations so don't worry, we brought you here so we will keep you here and let's assume that the next IGF is in Ethiopia for those who don't know.

Who knows.  SIDS IGF 2022 in Ethiopia, who knows.  Let's see how it goes.  Thanks, everyone, and have a pleasant rest of the day and for those in the Pacific, sleep well.  Thank you for staying up.  Thanks again, bye, everyone.