IGF 2021 - Day 2 - OF #67 Access to the Open Internet: benefits, challenges and policy approaches

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF virtual intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.



>> Good afternoon. Welcome to the open forum organized by the European Commission and entitled access to the open internet, benefits, challenge, and policy approaches. It is my big pleasure to be able to moderate these 60 minutes for exchanges and discussions. Now before I start, let me share with you a few moments on the models of this session. So first of all, I'm not the only moderator here. I have our online moderator.

>> SHELLEY MARSH:  Monitor the chat which I really encourage you to use to think of any questions that you would like to ask as well just contribute with some comments. And we will make sure that Laura then summarizes it for us. And I would like to encourage the online audience to use the chat as well as our participants because this is a hybrid meeting. And in order to kind of get the biggest benefit of the session, it's great that we are all on the same platform.

now one great thing about this session also is that we have interpretation, English and French. So feel free to use any channel that is closer to you. You can do that by clicking on the interpretation button at the bottom of your screens. As we have experienced in session, it is kind of clear that to bridge the digital divide, access to the internet is absolutely key. Yet sit not the case for all of the countries. If I just show you statistics that you're quite familiar with, according to the ITU, now 63% of the world's population are using the internet as of 2021. This represents an increase of 17% since 2019. So clearly as you can see, there is the trend is quite promising.

However, this still leaves 2.9 billion people online which is not something that should leave us kind of unconcerned.

But we need to see some kind of connections is the open internet is a key driver for innovation, for a social political economic and cultural development as well. So it is not just about getting online but what can spill over in the second place.

And to kick us off, apologies, for the discussion, we have excellent speakers with us, and we will hear from them and the perspectives of the regions that we are coming from. So just to briefly tell you who has agreed to join us. We have first of all, Mr. Yoichi Lida at the ministry of internal affairs and communications Japan joining us remotely. Very good have you with us. We have Director of network technology strategy. Thank you for joining us as well.

>> Nice to be with you.

>> Thank you. We have with us also in 2 policy networks on meaningful access. Good to see you. And good to have joining you from Poland.

>> Very much. I'm glad to be here with participants onsite and online.

>> Excellent. And I cannot of course note the mention very important speaker who is also behind to put this session together from the European Commission, head of sector at the internet governance and multistakeholder dialogue, good have you with us Esteve.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Thank you. Thank you to you and also for the leadership of the European Commission in this respect. Now you would start with you. And ask you about the vision of Japan on the open internet as well as some of the connectivity projects that Japan is supporting and developing countries such as Africa. Over to you.

>> YOICHI IIDA:  Thank you very much. Good morning. It is my great pleasure to join you today as speaker. And introduce very interesting statistics in the beginning, the internet has been the foundation of the economic growth and many varieties of social activities for the people around the world. But at the same time, used to be more than half of the population, world population hadn't been connected to the internet. But luckily two-thirds are now having access but still one-third is not given the access. And this very important challenge for us. Even for us who already connected. Because the connectivity keeps the enormous Ben fit to all the people around the world because when we want to access to people around the world, we need connectivity. And it is always very difficult to find sustainable and meaningful access to the world. Most serious difficulties. It is always out of the market. And for government it always, there's most serious challenges. Having said this, we now making -- we have been making a continuous effort with colleagues and the people from the likeminded partners to provide meaningful and affordable access to the people, especially in the disadvantaged regions, including Africa.

So our government is now working with ITU and some other countries to provide access to the people in Africa through project called recover connect.

The COVID-19 pandemic brought us to the recognition that internet connectivity is foundation for not only for the economy activities but also for the ordinary life and some very basic activities such as education or healthcare or transport. And in order to maintain very basic element of daily life and also to provide some economic activities needed for recovery from the pandemic. We definitely need connectivity. And we are now working with ITU and other countries to provide the better access and the connectivity to the people in Africa. And the beginning, we started some project in other countries through the project.

We also promote some project by using development assistance programs by the government. And we are trying to increase the connectivity by submarine cables and other solutions. One of the examples is a platform called haps, high altitude platform architecture which uses drone technology to provide platform at some 20-kilometers altitude to provide access from the air. To wide range of region, to provide some broadband wires access to people in the disadvantaged regions.

Doing such efforts the disadvantage regions including Africa and we try to improve the connective, global connectivity around the world. Thank you very much.

>> Thank you very much. Two keywords that I've taken from your contribution when describing access were the objectives meaningful and affordable. I cannot stress enough how important these two are. And your contribution is a nice segue turning, we've heard about Japanese support for initiatives in African region. Now what, according to you, are some of the challenges and success to open internet in Africa in particular?

>> Yes, thanks a lot. If you will allow me, I will switch to French which is one of my native languages.

>> Just a note for anybody who came late, we have interpretation. So you can use English Channel if that is better for you. Go ahead. Sorry to interrupt you.

>> Okay, so I was switching. So thanks a lot for the opportunity you gave me to represent. Which is communication company in Senegal in Africa. The trends are so open an open market. We have actors in the market. We have operators, of course. And we have NGOs. And we have supplier, internet suppliers. So when it comes to Africa, the mobile part is far more developed than the classical internet in separators that came late having invested far more in these branches when it comes to stationary internet. We have only one actor onsite with an offer for its based on the fiber. And copper. The market is quite different is and is running late in the regions. The main needs that we have to tackle. The first challenge, the main one is to ensure connectivity to all populations in which framework of your operators have introduced some policies, mobile phone based with the development of an 3g and 4G infrastructure development. We have a similar profile as in Europe. The situation is we have to represent connective 3g connectivity, we have lots of things that are on 3gs. And now we are developing a technology mix depending upon this fact we are in the cities or in the countryside. Or technologies based on copper or fiber when one comes to the cities. And there are many poor people in Africa. So the deployment is not always preventable. Which is why one of the main means we face is we would like the local communities to put less fiscal pressure on the operators. We would like them to pay less taxes for it to be and there are initiatives around the infrastructure sharings to invest in the region. When it comes to the question around the cooperation, the inter-corporation, we see there are initiatives when it comes to satellites. And what you were saying about the platforms that can bring some degree of connectivity from the air, this is something extremely vulnerable. We have many these advantage zones. We count on new norms and standards to set new rules when it comes to technology and evolution with the curse that make us able to invest in new technology and to optimize, to penetrate far further the evolution of the technologies that we contribute to bring technologies to the population that need them. Thank you.

>> On the local level and going to you, what are some of the relevant practices that are implemented by local actors and here we can talk about local governments and civil society, local providers as well. To ensure that the access, that there is access to the open internet. Over to you.

>> Thank you very much. First of all, for the sake of participation, I'm the only speaker onsite. But I do not feel alone. I have lots of participants on-site. Thank you very much for your attendance. I'm not sure you can see from the Zoom that we have almost half of the room full here. So that's great. And so just to start with also thanking very much the organization for this opportunity to showcase the new intersessional track within the IGF, we are trying to be precisely to tackle those major policy problems but also real problems and one of them is meaningful access. So the policy network on meaningful access, another acronym for our environment was created and kick-off back in June this year. It is comprised by multistakeholder working group with 25 high-level experts from different stakeholder groups. And one of the goals is precisely to bring those key actors that are involved on achieving meaningful access to the table. And to learn from those local experiences and from the broader community what needs to be done and really do it.

So I'm short cutting a lot of the discussions that we went over more than six months now. And we just presented for those that are familiar with the IGF, I'm in one of those days, we just left two main sessions. The main session that we presented to the policy network on meaningful access and the main session about how to achieve the internet. And congratulate also for coming and speaking in French which is one of the aspects so much highlighted today.

But back to the PNMA. So 2 group kick-offs with the discussion precisely, what does meaningful access mean? Because in the local level and for each of us, it does mean different things. For some, access means their only way to have education with the pandemics, it's been said over and over. But with the pandemic, we learn that this says lifeline. For others, it's the only way to communicate with their families. And for many others in risky areas or in conflict zones, that's an emergency lifeline. So we need to listen more. We need to learn from the experiences. And collect them. And what the group started seeking out with inputs and we received by now over 20 contributions, and they are still coming, so I invite everyone watching to please join and send if you have contributions from the local level experience, but we are learning that there are some properties that we could build on. Perhaps not go over definition of meaningful access because good organizations are already, that have already worked on those but to really bring this together, what are those key elements that we need can work, we need the work and where the bottlenecks to make it happen. I think was also tackling on this challenge. And it's really sometimes it is a policy aspect. Sometimes it is a funding and sometimes it is just a knowledge of what can be done because it's not replicated. So one of the efforts that the PNMA is also tackling to have a next phase. So continuing this year was building the policy network itself, bringing the actors together, understanding a little bit more and framing the challenges. And really come out with not only another report on what others should be doing but what we can do together. So this is also innovative way of approaching the IGF community that we hope we can bring together and continue next year.

And those efforts combined not only within the IGF community so the different components of the IGF discussions., of course grounded in the IGF mandate but also on at the forts from the United Nations Secretary General, the roadmap on digital cooperation, brings this pretty clearly but also the more recent agenda call. And so bringing this all together, it's very important. So to look inside but also to tap on the other. So that's what we are expecting in terms of more participation and learning from you. So thank you very much,

>> And thanks to you for sharing kind of what it looks like in the room. We really appreciate it.

Thank you also for mentioning the work on the PNMA. We do like good acronym in these circles so that's one more to add to the collection.

So jokes aside, let's talk some of the poll say approaches. We've heard from all of the speakers before you, about the local specificities, about the local meets. Now what can we answer if terms of policy?

>> Thank you so much. We've heard bringing to light the problems of the digital divide which are fundamental, and we hear a lot about digital divide in the IGF. You know, at this point in time, we should find solutions as long as possible. It's at the same time, we hear in the IGF, it's part also of this discussion around meaningful access to the commission welcomes very much. This idea that we should press pause and think about connectivity, perhaps in complex terms, what we need by connectivity to the open internet.

And among other things because we, this ideal notion at the beginning of the internet, that you would put internet into communities and societies and then you would empower citizens, you would empower companies, almost immediately, well, we need to rethink it. We need to pause and think what's going on and not take it for granted.

This is certainly what underlies the policy approach to digitization in our own region. But also, the philosophy and policies that are proposed in recent communications and strategies by the commission. One is the digital compass but another one which is particularly relevant is the global gateway. The global gateway says new initiative that the President of the commission rely on introduced last week, but it is a connectivity package. Will mobilize 300 billion in connective investments but also digital connectivity has a very, very clear role. In partner countries. Global gateway will build on existing European environments and actions and there are many of those. But it's a new instrument. We have undertaken the connective projects around the world. It's an open, still open instrument. And that's why the conversations are important to us. We get ideas and perspectives. It will shape how the global gateway will look like in the end. But there are three characteristics that I would like to mention to you because we have announced them in the communication materials. Really underlie the initiatives that we will put forward in 2022. First one is we really digital connectivity investments need to be linked to the development of standards, protocol  that support the free, secure, and open internet. So basically people can access the full range of services with a high-quality experience. We have the infrastructure. We should really link those investments with developments of the open internet. We think this is extremely important in terms of the quality of experience and the meaningful access that one can get to that connectivity, but also is a way of really preventing that connectivity might eventually get connected to alternative internets that really do not fit where we understand free internet.

The second characteristic of the global gateway that I would like to mention is that this infrastructure investments will be combined with country-level technical assistance on digital regulations. Digital regulations that will want to ensure that the right of privacy are protected, that data protection is really a core feature of connectivity markets. The development of local digital industries and societies and cultures. We need a fair and open market. Especially the big tech power on those markets we need cybersecurity. The European Union is engaging in the process. We have been experimenting with the regulations and designing for a longtime. Our infrastructure investments will come with assistance. So that again the connective deployed empowers systems and people and local businesses. And does not create dependencies in that sense. The third characteristic will be, it will proceed on the basis of equal partnerships very deeply with local industries but also international efforts in the U.N. in the World Bank, et cetera, et cetera. But also EU and a broad range of stakeholders. So we really think that projects should proceed in multistakeholder way. But really start understanding what are the needs. So in some prosperity of freedom of speech, and which really at this point find solutions during this connectivity, once and for all, to everyone. But we think that we need more ingredients. And the three ingredients I'm proposing here in this part of the initiative is infrastructure, yes, but connected to the deployments of the open internet. So that the experience of the open internet is the right one. And the correct one according to local needs.

And digital regulations are a package, we want an internet that really empowers local system, local markets, citizens, et cetera. And through well-coordinated multistakeholder partnerships to really confront the huge economic investment that this represents. But also really link it to what are the real needs on the ground. Thank you.


>> Oh, thank you very much. Also for this kind of frank assessment that is complex issue and that there is no silver bullet. So now let us try to hear from our audience about what are the challenges. I hope you can see my screen now. But I would like you to do is to go to www.menti.com. And put the code for the session. The code for the session is 78388509. And give us kind of your assessment on what you think are the greatest challenges to the access to the internet in your region. So let us just spend a few seconds collecting the inputs and. I would like to turn to Laura who has been monitoring chat. I know there's been a contribution. So while our audience is submitting their opinion, would you be able to share with us what has been going on in the chat, please?

>> LAURA FERRE SANJUAN:  Hello, can you listen to me?

>> Oh, good.

>> LAURA FERRE SANJUAN:  Okay, perfect. So at the moment, we only have one comment in the chat but it's a really valuable comment. So we are good on that side. We have researcher in cyber psychology. And she was talking about how cybersecurity topics and the cyber world is very broad. And within diverse range of topics to explore. And she was saying that sometimes a cyber psychology is a topic that is overlooked, that we don't pay enough attention. She was raising the question on whether we should start changing the narrative on this topic.

>> Thank you very much, Laura, for that. And also for this question. So before I let our panelists to engage, let us quickly summarize the mood in the room, virtual. So most of you, who have responded, think that the greatest challenge to open internet your region is the lack of policy. Followed by something else. And then others appreciating the problem of appropriate infrastructure and regarding benefits so. That's an illustration. If those of you who have answered to it is something else, would like to share with us what is this, we would be very pleased to hear from you. Feel free to use the chat or obviously just raise your hand. We do not need to communicate only through the chat.

Now turning to our panelists now. I would like you to address both the question that Laura has just shared with us on the cyber psychology, and I would also like to give you an opportunity to react to what the proceeding speakers has covered. If there's anything particular that you would like to elaborate on further. I'll go obviously first because you were the first speaker. May I ask you for your reactions, please.

>> Yeah, thank you very much. Having listened to the previous speakers, the importance of strengthening the infrastructure is of course, significant now but at the same time, we cannot forget the importance of maintaining and even strengthening the democracy in the internet space is very important and something we need to address at this moment.

As described, the of the project must be how to maintain and promote free, promoted, and interoperable internet around the world. And if we look at the current situation over the world, some country, we don't want to bring too much politics but still we have to meet some countries now going different direction. Which the internet has been providing us over the last decades. And the core value of the internet is freedom and demographic to all the people, tall participants. And the importance of multistakeholder participation. So we have to take actions all together among the like-minded partners to protect shared value which are human centered, human protection of human rights and the privacy protection of democratic values. And in order to do that, we not only working to increase infrastructure, but we have to take options to prevail the common values through the regular situations and the good policy shared by all the stakeholders in the internet space. And to do that, would be very keen to work together with partners from likeminded work. Thank you very much.

>> Thanks to you. Madam, if I may turn to you for quick reactions on either the question in the chat or speakers, please.

>> Yes, react, what was said by our colleague on the use, what is explained. On the fact that plan is connected with respect standards. To say, and I don't want to shock the audience because we're talking about open internet, it's our common objective in Africa. Also we have rules, we have laws that are very strict that want to guarantee the integrity of information and not to -- and its security. The first problem really, the problem that the populations do have regardless of the problem of open internet is that they have, they need internet as a tool, digitalization tool. That will allow, that's a lever of the development for Africa.

So today we have a sort of a marketplace on internet that we use in order to access all the services with no discrimination whatsoever. This is a lever to make in the development. Those people who have no services onsite. And we see what can be done, we see all the services available have to be brought to these places where there's no access. So this is an element that will increase the competitive. The first thing in Africa is to have access to investments, but starting with just first the access, integrity comes second, but we have services in which we have no problems with integrity. And no problems whatsoever. Information is not changed. We have access in Africa. We have contribution in terms of investments that will condition necessarily certain difficult elements that are difficult to do like it should be done with open internet.

This should be like we said the State and the local connectivities have to help the operators to give access to the local populations. And you've invested in Europe, we need this money also in Africa for development of infrastructure. We need regulator creates legal framework to development of the infrastructure. And another key point is the participations of the effort of investments. Today in Africa, we only have operators do invest. We provide something but the service, the most important, the content is provided by the providers. So we need institutions, not only private. We need to encourage to participate in at the fort for infrastructure. And also the governments and the local communities. We need to create data centers as close as possible in Africa in order to avoid investments under water cables. Because we don't have. That's all I wanted to say, we need this kind of initiatives like what is being done in Europe but localized in Africa. If the LTT can participate, it will be good for us because the operators are the only who are facing this problem investments. Thank you very much.

>> I'm going to start by reacting by our comment online on the human aspect on meaningful access. Because this was brought into the PNMA discussions. I think mentioned also that very often those discussions are held into the infrastructure level which is also important. We still need to connect a lot of people, almost one-third of the population is not online still. It's connecting peopling and humans. And the way we connect them is also important. So some of the questions, the key policy questions that are behind the work of the PNMA is looking into meaningful access with three pillars, the connectivity which also tackles on the infrastructure, but looks into models that empowers this connectivity also from a bottom-up and from the community. And I'm going back to this because I think that's the most concrete example that we can take out from the IGF experience as always, he was mentioning. Owe just for the sake of the order, the three pillars taking is connectivity, digital inclusion, and capacity development. Precisely because it's not only about infrastructure but it's how you are going to get connected, what is the quality of your use, and what is the impact of this use and connectivity. So those are the underlying questions that we are also working on the PNMA.

But back to the concrete example and for the sake of time, one of the examples that the IGF has been a success. Is in promoting the community networks. And it's another intersessional track. I should know better, another acronym. But it started back five years ago. And it started with sharing the experience from local countries, closer to my region, I'm from Brazil, so Mexico, from Latin America, it started looking into the Indigenous community that were not connected in any other form of communication. So looking over the regulation, it was very hard to find ways to bring this connectivity, there was no commercial interest. There was no service that was provided for those communities.

So they decided to become operators, telecommunication operators. And so in a non-traditional way. So this has sparked a whole discussion that of course took some time to come together. But their experience in creating a new policy model of licensing for known traditional operators which is often called the community networks and. This is not the only example. I mean there, is no one single solution. But by being able to share this experience and how they came through, solution, it has really been contagious in the region. So back in this five years is straightforward now, where CIL has already started reviewing adapting some of the regulations. Argentina has done also. Colombia. So we can see how bringing to light or bringing this knowledge and sharing in those spaces, not only the IGF but other forum was crucial to inspire other countries to look when they have this issue. And just on the human factor also. That is so important because community networks does not mean only bringing those, bringing the connection, bringing the access, bringing the fiber or the station or whatever kind of connectivity you are looking for, but it's really bringing the community to procreate from this because you can get them connected but if they don't understand the benefit, if they don't understand what they are using and don't appropriate from keeping up with this connection, it's not really going to be meaning.. So that's one of the examples that surfaces over and over. Not only from Latin America, Africa has lots of them. And even in developed countries, in the U.S., we have examples, so on and so forth. So I just wanted to try to wrap it up with the comment that was made on the importance of not only putting the connection but making a way that the community owns this connection and owns its decisions about how they want to be connected. And what they're going to get after they are connected. Thank you very much.

>> Very relevant points from you. And I'm glad that you brought the capacity development I mentioned. Indeed, it's important. Over to you for a quick reaction.

>> Well be very quick because I go last. But it's I couldn't agree more with everything that the speaker said. I think in the end, it all converts to this idea of empowering local communities. It’s really finding the right ingredient, the skills the infrastructure, the technology, et cetera, that really contribute to the development of local system, of really letting people shape the technology in a way that is meaningful to them, that it's meaningful economically to one given country and that contributes to self-reliance at the end. It was a promise of self-reliance. And thing needs work. It's not a given. It needs a lot of work I. needs a lot of thinking. And it needs a lot of understanding of those local need, those local cultures. And it did work because we have forces that go against that. And now we see them. And was very clear in mentioning certain state, we fully agree with that. And also there are companies that have big power online. And they might not contribute as we thought at the beginning to the development of local markets and that's why we are thinking and evolving into these extremely democratic regulations around the internet. And that's really, I think, one common trend, that we should really work, not take it for granted, but work so that the empower, local empowerment happens. And we should not underestimate the role of infrastructure here. It's not that simple. Infrastructure looks technical, looks like pipe, like protocols but it is involved in all this. It is profoundly involved. We should take note of that and work on that.

>> Thank you very much. And certainly for also collecting the inputs, we are hoping that this session will be a contribution as well. So feel free to use the channels we have available to really contribute.

Now opening up a little bit more sensitive topic, and this there was a little bit of a shift from the initial aspirational vision of the internet. To some countries to introduce more state-controlled models of connectivity. As we start to be pressed for time, I would like to ask for quick reactions very tweet-like manner and I'll start with you.

>> Thank you. I think that it's agnostic very clear, at least myself and the European Union in general, profoundly. But just to say that we feel that we are entering even a new phase of this. That goes into the technical infrastructure itself. And this worries a lot because basically we see proponents of standards in the standardization organizations that would basically create a new stack of protocols. That according to the description of the protocols, it would create an alternative top-down internet that basically it's completely different than the open and free internet that we understand. And this something that worries us. Goes deeper into what we're generally used to, that it's not going to happen tomorrow because it's a very almost project but nonetheless, it exists. And it will be very damaging for the free global open internet because it will basically fragment the internet significantly. And this is something that we will also be working on.

>> Thank you.

>> I'm going back now to my technical community and roots and also academic roots because I precisely studied some of the aspects about the internet. But just to be short in my answer to say that recalling, they named the internet as internetworking protocol. So recalling, if you don't have the network connecting to the networks, and if you don't have the network of networks, this is not the internet. This is something else. So even if you want to create something, you might not call another internet or alternative to the internet. This is something else. And it's very risky because it was built as a network of networks for a reason. Because it was needed to have this interoperability. It is needed to have these pipes free or (?) there are some names from the technical community for that. But it is built to be resilient, of what we know of the internet today for a reason. And if we start putting those walls around internet, we are going to at a minimum break it or kill it which would be even worse. So I would be very, very careful with those alternatives. Thank you very much.

>> Thank you for your words of caution. Would you like to very briefly react to this particular question?

>> Yes, of course. My reaction to this regard would be to say that nowadays there, are proper initiatives aiming at creating that kind of network, perhaps what we should do is to block these tries or slow them down at least. But internet has something to it that is greatly, to a great extent contributing to feed the hopes of peoples when it comes to the possibility to have an open access to information, to generalized information. And the very fact that we have access to available content, to information, to education, et cetera, this is what will make it to look for contents that are authorized by the standards. So I think the best way to fight against these trends is to keep on having strong organisms that we make available contents accessible to all for people to keep looking for information instead of looking at private networks that lack openness.

>> Anything else that you would like to briefly bring up now on this particular question?

>> Sorry, I couldn't hear, but maybe just briefly from myself. You know, finance is important, technology is important, regulations are important. But for me, personally, in the end, the most important thing is the passion and the will to protect this open, free, and interoperable internet. And we have to work together in the multistakeholder participation. And the bottom-up efforts are most important. And from that point of view, the IGF is the place to realize these wills of the people. And we need to keep this momentum and the passion of all the different people from different communities around the world to integrate them into the power of maintaining and promoting this demographic, free, open internet. Thank you very much.

>> Thank you very much. Laura, quickly to you. And while you're doing it, I will share one more question and we will try to do both things at once. What has been going on in the chat, please?

>> LAURA FERRE SANJUAN:  Hello. Thank you very much. So in the chat, we are having few very interesting discussions. And also, we are having some resources that have been shared by some of our participants so. Thank you very much for that. Because the links are very, very enriching.

So one of the discussions is about optics versus results. We were talking about how sometimes governments have these very proactive policies but then the discussion was until which point, they are materializing. This is one of the discussions. And then the other was more of proposition. And it was saying that to address lack of infrastructure for meaningful access, there are two key points. One of them it was to opt for national regulations. They were arguing that is important. And the second idea was that it is important to collaborate with the centralized community projects.

>> Thank you, thank you very much, Laura. I apologize that we will not have time to go through the question, but we certainly thank you for that. If you want to give us some ideas for call of action on concrete step, go to menti.com and use the code 78388509 and you can do it after the session. To give us some guidance because inputs from the session will be considered definitely by the European Commission in their efforts.

So with this, I am sorry that I will need to finish this session because we are out of time. I would like to thank our audience that has joined us. I would like to join our audience online. Of course, all of our speakers. A special thank you because it is very late in Japan. Thank you very much. Travel safe if you're returning from the Indigenous a few days. And we hope to see you soon. Feel free to give your inputs as we go beyond this session. Bye-bye.