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December 2014 - IGF Open Consultations and MAG Meeting - Day 3 - Afternoon

IGF  MAG Meeting
 Geneva, Switzerland


The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the December 2014 IGF Open Consultations and MAG Meetings, in Geneva, Switzerland. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.


 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.  I hope that we're now live on transcript.  

 And thank you very much, Benedicto Fonseca, for undertaking these consultations over lunchtime.  

 If I may ask you to report back, for the record, if you have made any progress in determining theme and subthemes of the IGF in Brazil.

 >>BENEDICTO FONSECA FILHO:  Thank you, Janis.  

 Well, we have had, I think, very good discussion, but unfortunately I have to report there was no -- we could not near to an agreement to themes, subthemes, or which topics should be taken for intersessional work or best practice fora and model.  Actually, three-quarters of the time we dedicated to the discussion was on the process itself.  There was a very lively discussion with regard to whether MAG should take upon itself without any further consultation the task of determining the themes or subthemes or whether there should be wider consultation to the wider community.  

 And there were very interesting points in favor and against.  I would highlight maybe some comments that there was a proposal that maybe that should be proposed to the next IGF from the start and something that we would look to receive from the community, those inputs for themes and subthemes, not now.

 There was a concern in regard to the lack of established criteria for this to happen and a concern in regard to the timing we'll have to receive and process these in a way that is taking into account the comments we receive.

 Another comment was in regard that maybe no new idea that would come up from those consultations, that actually all the material we have for making decisions is available.  And as Mark has just indicated -- I'm sorry, that I think Virat indicated that we have already a kind of consultation that took place in a way.  

 On the other hand, there was, I think, very important points as well that that could be seen as something innovative we could do that would reflect the extended time frame we'll have this year, probably in regard to other years in which we have benefited from the fact IGF this year happened in September so we had more time to have this meeting in December so that would be an opportunity.  We have some more time for this.

 And that actually we do not need to normalize all the answers we received, that MAG would be in a position to process these.  And also there was a comment that we could do it maybe on a test basis and allowing community to comment and crowdsource around one subtheme, for example, not the full theme and subtheme but restricted to one area as a kind of test case for future years.  So there was no -- I have to say there was no conclusive decision in that regard.

 And the remaining of the time, we had roughly 12, 13 minutes to discuss the substance itself.  And in that regard, I think some points were made in regard to proposals that had been put forward before and actually even a new theme was proposed.  That indicates the complexity that will be found to find a solution around this.  The new proposal is:  "Ten years, shaping the evolution and use of the Internet."

 And then some points were made in regard to a concern that the notion of "sustainable development" that is embraced by many participants may be too broad, does not exactly lead us to discuss specific problems, specific issues we want to discuss.

 On the other hand, there was also against that vision that even being broad, we could deal with that in regard to the subthemes.  

 So I think we had some very useful discussion.  I think most participants -- I myself benefited very much.  I assume all who participated also were enriched by the discussions.  But this does not for sure preempt the need for another phase to be decided upon and proposed by you, Janis, on how to move forward in that.

 Just finalize that, even those who don't think that now is the right time to launch these crowdsourcing exercise, they are fully in favor in principle of having the more open kind of consultation.  And we have this concern about the timing, about the lack of criteria, about how this would be processed.  And that's very perfectly, of course -- this is my attempt to sum up the points that were made.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  I understand Constance wanted to say a few sentences.

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Thank you so much.

 There has been another proposal floating, and just to feed the reflection -- and this is not my idea, "Internet governance for empowerment, trust, and prosperity" for those who feel that "sustainable development" is maybe too vague.  Thank you so much.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you, Constance, for that proposal.

 What I would like to suggest, it is obvious that we cannot reach consensus here.  I would like maybe to ask Benedicto to take up the task and continue consulting community online, MAG and community.  I would urge to open up the discussion to broader community as was suggested by Avri and supported by others, maybe not for overly long because the definition of themes and subthemes may delay the call for proposals.  And we would need to get this job done roughly by mid January, latest end of January.

 I would suggest that we schedule a conference call around mid January and put that as the only item on the agenda and then try to finalize and then reach rough consensus on that.  I don't think that everybody will be equally happy.  I would rather think we would need to strive to make everybody equally unhappy and then from there we will then go forward with a call for proposals.

 If that is agreeable, then we can proceed that way.

 Avri?  You're against that.

 >>AVRI DORIA:  This is Avri.  I just wanted to add one thing, and that I'm willing -- understanding the resource limitations of the secretariat and having spent a fair amount of time working with the secretariat, I'm more than willing to help them do this over the intervening time.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much, Avri, for volunteering.

 Benedicto, you have a good collaborator for this task.

 So let us move to the next item, and that is discussion about other activities surrounding which are part of the IGF and maybe also other type of sessions that we have.  And, of course, we have already touched upon best practice forums.  And I do not think we should go much on that topic, but topics as dynamic coalitions and interaction of dynamic coalitions with IGF and the role of dynamic coalitions and how dynamic coalitions could be leveraged in order to promote the aims of IGF or how the dynamic coalitions could be used to engage them in intersessional activities and what are relationships between dynamic coalitions and IGF and in general.  So I think this is the concern of some MAG members who will put that -- or who asked to put that on the agenda.

 And I think that also will help us to shape our better understanding how -- about the modalities of intersessional work might be organized.

 And I recognize Marilyn.

 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you, Chair.  My name is Marilyn Cade.  I raised some concerns yesterday.  But my concerns extend not just to the dynamic coalitions but an expression as well of awareness that I ask that we have about the expectations that we may wish to bring to national and regional initiatives as well in terms of their ability and even in terms of resourcing to take on additional work that does not come from their organic process.

 I support the idea of inviting participation.  Some will not be convening in time perhaps to contribute; others will.

 But let me go back to dynamic coalitions.  The dynamic coalitions are not all at the same level of maturity.  Not all of the dynamic coalitions actually are yet, I would say, geographically representative or necessarily reflecting all points of view.  And, in fact, some have been successful in a particular area because they are more aligned around the work that they are doing.

 This is not a criticism of the dynamic coalitions.  It is an observation.  So the people who come to work in the dynamic coalition about accessibility, for instance, tend to be committed to and aware of that issue already.  They are not there to debate whether it is a good thing to do.

 I notice that Peter -- I take note that Peter Major is here and may be able to comment further.

 I want to understand what we think dynamic coalitions are expected to do and whether we think that there needs to be different criteria for the dynamic coalitions, or we are prepared to accept that some may be more basic in their evolutions.  Some may be more of a birds of feather, like-minded work program.  Others may be very different and be more of a preliminary, we're just beginning to debate and figure out an issue.  But I don't understand our expectations, and I'd like to understand those more.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  If you would allow me very briefly since the dynamic coalitions were created at the very beginning and actually the history or the story behind creation of dynamic coalitions was that IGF has never been made to make any decisions.  And it was understood that some people, some organizations could get together around one theme and take that theme to greater maturity and propose it for decision-making somewhere, where that belongs to.

 And in 2006 we had created -- during IGF, there were a number of dynamic coalitions created.  But then they went somehow loose and then there was a decrease in activity.  And now there is, again, a little bit up, sort of increase in activity of the dynamic coalitions.  Some of them have gone as far as proposing some recommendations to international organizations, and they have been acted upon.  But there haven't been any kind of strong feedback to my understanding from dynamic coalitions to the IGF.  And that is why the question is on the table, how we deal with them.

 We have created them at the very beginning, but do we need to establish kind of rules of engagement with them.  That is the question.  Markus?

 >>MARKUS KUMMER:  Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you, Chair, for recalling the history.  I would like to pick up also on what Mark had been saying and Marilyn.  Indeed, the dynamic coalitions we have are very heterogeneous.  You were right in pointing out it was a kind of compromise to begin with.  Somewhat -- some sort of regular subworking groups, that was rejected at the beginning as it was seen by being too institutionalized, and the compromise was let these dynamic coalitions get off the ground and get started.

 Now, most of them didn't do much except organize an annual meeting.  Some others actually did some work.  The dynamic coalition on accessibility is a very good example of very useful work being done by a dynamic coalition which is not so much in debating a theme but more as raising awareness and putting documents together on how we can help people with disabilities.

 And I came across -- when you asked me to, Chair, to lead the session on network neutrality, that there is a dynamic coalition on network neutrality.  That dynamic coalition has been extremely dynamic in developing principles.  But this is an issue which is extremely controversial.  And they did that in a kind of vacuum among like-minded, did very good work, and took that work to the Council of Europe and I think also to the European Parliament.  But they never took it back to the main body of the community or never had it -- there was lack of a feedback to the broader IGF community.

 And this is, I think, very relevant and we touched on this on one of the calls we had after or before Istanbul, and I think there is a need to create a feedback loop between the dynamic coalitions and the broader community.  

 And when preparing the net neutrality session, we actually looked at the example of the Internet Engineering Task Force, where anybody can start a bird of a feather.  When this gets traction, they can then propose creating a working group, which needs to be approved by the Internet Architecture Board, the terms of reference need to be approved, and then the working group can start its work.

 But again, once they conclude their work, they have to report back to the broader community, and if the community then agrees on their work, then it turns into an official RFC of the Internet Engineering Task Force.

 And I think as IGF, we can look at the IETF and learn a bit from this kind of mechanism, but if we want to have a tangible outcome of the dynamic coalitions, we need to create a link to the broader community and I think the MAG would be the logical group that would approve the terms of reference for the dynamic coalitions and would then also give the IGF label over the outcome.

 There's also the dynamic coalition -- I think also Mark mentioned it -- on rights and principles that came up with a very elaborate outcome.  They have a little booklet where these are printed out.  But they were never actually reported back into the main body of the meeting of the community.

 So this is something -- and I'm sure we will not be able to come to a conclusion here, but I strongly urge that we have to give sufficient reflection on how we interact with the dynamic coalitions and bring them in the main fold of the IGF.  Thanks.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you, Markus.


 >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Peter Dengate Thrush.  I. 

 Agree completely with everything that Markus has said, and I wonder if the way to go forward and to adopt your suggestion, Mr. Chairman, about making some rules, is to begin first, as one should, by collecting some facts and doing some evaluations.

 Why don't we include in the evaluation mechanism that we've been talking about, the post-hoc mechanism -- begin by doing some evaluations of the dynamic coalitions, and then armed with the information that that will produce -- because these things don't need -- I don't get any sense we need to do anything in a hurry but we need to do it properly.  So why don't we start by collecting some information, doing some evaluations, and then moving forward into the kind of areas that Markus is talking about, which I agree is where we need to go.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Virat?

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Could be my shortest comment ever.  I lend my voice and weight behind everything that has been said by Markus.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Mark?

 >>MARK CARVELL:  Yes.  I'll be equally brief.  Mark Carvell, U.K. government.  

 Agree very much with Markus' main points about the need to develop this sort of loop mechanism back into the IGF.  And what I had suggested earlier about each of the dynamic coalitions reporting and briefing the MAG on their action plans and expected outcomes, we would then be in a better place to understand how we can integrate them in the intersessional work and in the IGF in Brazil next year.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Anybody opposing?

 I see none.

 Marilyn, would you agree to take that mapping first into the scope of the working group on sort of self-evaluation?  That we get a list of those existing dynamic coalitions, and then as a result of that, see which are active, which are not?  

 And listening to this discussion, we have a practice in IGF that one slot is given to -- for coordination of activities of national and regional IGFs.

 These are spinouts from the IGF international.

 Maybe we should also add dynamic coalitions to that list and assign a certain number of MAG members to be present in that coordination meeting and gather all this information.  

 I would be very hesitant to make MAG as a Senate which calls on on hearings, ones or others.

 I would rather see MAG members going in the community and gathering that information, and I think that that mechanism would be -- would be more democratic and helpful.

 Marilyn, you are in agreement with me as usual, right?

 >>MARILYN CADE:  With one tiny, tiny edit.  Marilyn Cade speaking.

 Chair, I do think that the dynamic coalitions, just like the national and regionals, they do have the opportunity to write a report, and so I don't want to overlook the sort of self-assessment responsibility and contribution.

 Happy to put it into the working group because I think it is an issue of what are we doing about developing outcomes or outputs -- which may be a term I like better -- but I think I just want to recognize that there are reports, and perhaps the secretariat might even be able to help me with a comment on that.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Then that is decided.

 And are there any other questions under this agenda item that people would like to raise?

 I see none.

 We can then move forward.

 The -- I understand that we already had a conversation about the preparatory calendar meetings and milestones.  I think that the majority thought that what I did send out would be something to follow and was not, except very few, keen to do three meetings in 2015, and therefore, I would suggest that we go for a three-meeting strategy, with the understanding that every second week we would have a teleconference where we would be addressing topics that need to be decided.  

 I think we will start with themes and subthemes as a question which has the highest priority for the moment.

 And then of course when it comes to a second meeting of the cycle in May, we really need to see this is just an indication that we may have one at that time.  We do not know exact dates.  We do not know exact place.

 Usually the May meeting is sort of aligned with the WSIS forum, and the dates that I have put in the proposal, these are dates either three days before the meeting -- meaning Wednesday, Thursday, Friday before the week of WSIS forum -- or Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, the week after the WSIS forum, because WSIS forum is taking place five days and this will be a celebration of 150th anniversary of ITU around World Information Day.

 We need to see availability of rooms.  We need to see availability of hotels.  It may happen that we need to look at a venue.  Occasionally there is EuroDIG meeting happening in early June in Sofia, so that might be an option.  Not that we're going, but that might be an option.

 But again, it remains to be seen.  The secretariat will communicate as soon as possible these dates.  

 But in between, of course we need to give -- to send the call for proposals end of January, collecting all inputs, submissions, by end of -- or March, mid-March, end March, do evaluation, preselection evaluation before the meeting, and then aim at sort of selecting the majority of workshops or events during that meeting.

 I see Marilyn and Cheryl asking for the floor.

 Marilyn, please.

 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you.  Marilyn Cade speaking.

 Chair, I just want to -- for all colleagues to note that the Commission on -- United Nations Commission on Science and Technology for Development meets on May -- from May 4th through 8th, and I understand that sometimes we have met on the cusp of the WSIS forum but sometimes we've also met on the cusp of the CSTD.

 I mention this because many of the countries that are members of CSTD are also actively engaged in the -- in the Internet Governance Forum, and the WSIS+10 review report that CSTD is mandated to deliver and debate in May is quite significantly important to the IGF.

 So I just mention those dates and that event for consideration as well.

 The CSTD typically, as it meets, it has an opening high-level session, it has two major work tracks, one being science and technology for development and the other being WSIS follow-up, a responsibility which was given to the CSTD by the UNGA in 2006.

 So I would like us to also take that meeting into account.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you, but you're not suggesting during the week of the CSTD.  It should be either before -- no, not before.  That's too early.  After that?

 >>MARILYN CADE:  I -- it could be after it.  I just note that actually for my own purposes, although I do participate in WSIS forum, I think there are more opportunities, perhaps, at -- to participate in the day where that debate will take place.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.


 >>CHERYL MILLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  I just had a quick question.

 I wanted to see if we had concluded our discussion on main sessions and the substance of the intersessional.  I know that we had put a proposal on the table and I wasn't sure if it's appropriate to address it before we close or not.  But I just wanted to ask that.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  We have concluded discussions on main sessions, yes, but we have not concluded yet discussion on intersessional activities, so that is still coming.

 So thank you, Marilyn, for that.

 Peter?  Peter Major?

 >>PETER MAJOR:  Just to follow up on what Marilyn said and what you have mentioned, the CSTD in this year in its resolution about the WSIS follow-up will naturally take some -- will have a paragraph about the continuation of the IGF.

 And in view of that, even though you said it's too early, probably we should reconsider whether we shouldn't have some kind of impact or outreach towards the members of the CSTD and the bigger community here in Geneva.

 By "bigger community," I mean the diplomatic community.

 So I just put it on the table to think about it.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  No, I think when we discussed the self-evaluation, my understanding was that we would submit the results of self-evaluation, the report, to the CSTD as an input to their discussion.

 The outreach, I think Geneva is the place where we can do outreach easily because secretariat is based here, and I see no difficulty in doing that, and actually this is the next point on our agenda:  How to do communication and outreach.  That's Point Number 7 that I wanted to open the floor for comments, inputs.

 I heard Jivan talking, volunteering to put pen on the paper based on his experience and knowledge, but I don't see him in the room.  Maybe he's -- he will join us.  Hopefully soon.

 I had two requests for the floor.  Virat and Marilyn.

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to volunteer for the outreach group.  

 Preferably the evaluation group should also be the outreach group.  That would be a perfect way to start developing what we have learned into the outreach.

 So I just wanted to volunteer for that.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Marilyn?

 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you.  My name is Marilyn Cade.

 My suggestion would be it would be good, I think, to integrate the evaluation.  I'm not -- perhaps I'll call it "assessment and documentation," as opposed to "evaluation," because I think what we are trying to do is to document the achievements, as opposed to so much rate them.

 And I do think it would be good to integrate that into an outreach initiative, and I hope that -- I suggested to the secretariat I think yesterday there was a suggestion that we have a mailing list but perhaps we could also -- those who are interested who are in the room could gather in the back of the room, we could put together a mailing list, and come up with a rough idea in order to deliver something useful by May.

 I just will note -- and I will turn to the vice chair for one of the regions, Mr. Peter Major, vice chair from CSTD -- I believe that means we really need to have a document to circulate within the MAG by the end of March.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Indeed.  That is -- I think the statutory requirement is to send documents one month before the session, but that is by secretariat.  I assume that secretariat needs to get it beforehand, so that they can process and put -- or communicate that to members of CSTD.

 So at the end of the day, we do not have much time.  

 But also I -- I think that the communication and outreach practice is slightly broader than just this.  We need to communicate the results of our self-assessment to inform the debate, but in reality we need to find a way how to beat -- or oppose perception that basically IGF does nothing.  

 In reality, IGF does a lot of things.  We have produced a wealth of material, both video material, documentary material.  Every session that has been held in IGF technically is recorded and is available.

 The point is that not many people know about it, not many people use it, and we need to find a way how to push that information out to relevant organizations, to relevant countries, to relevant individuals who may benefit from that information, and that is the tricky part.

 We also need to take into account that there always will be calls for doing more, and they will be motivated by political considerations rather than by reality.

 So we will always be confronted with opposition of some kind, so therefore, we need really to think how we overcome those shortfalls and how we proactively present IGF outside, and of course the community input would be very useful.

 Here I have now a number of speakers.  Maybe we could devote the next 15, 20 minutes to this conversation.

 And I would like to see also volunteers who would like to be coordinators of this work, and help us out.

 So ICC/BASIS first, and then Maria Victoria.

 >>ICC/BASIS:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  

 I would just like to offer the support and contribution of ICC/BASIS to the communication and outreach work of the MAG, and as a non-MAG member, I'd like to contribute to that.  

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS: So thank you.  Maria Victoria?

 >>MARIA VICTORIA ROMERO:  Thank you, Chair.  

 We come to the point where I can actually volunteer to participate in the outreaching group on communication and outreach.  And as I've been mentioning, it's extremely important the participation of developing countries, and it's quite worrisome that the New York -- the voices of many like-minded countries are not here because of a lack of clarity or understanding.

 We think that we can be of use here in Geneva among the diplomatic community and to the highest level, bringing some ambassadors into discussions and to have them with a better understanding and transmit these messages to our capitals and from there to New York where the decisions are made and -- well, that's all.  Thank you, Chair.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  Lea?

 >>LEA KASPAR:  Thank you, Chair.

 Just to add my voice of support for this -- for the integration of these two elements as you and Virat suggested.

 Also like to volunteer to participate in this work.  And in practical terms, what I think would be useful, in thinking about outreach and communications, is in the early stages think about an action plan with relevant points where we could actually then input, whether it's conferences or events where MAG members can then feed these findings.  That's all.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Peter Dengate Thrush, then Peter Major.

 >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  

 Can I just -- good governance principles require that I insist that you separate these two functions along the lines that you started to suggest.  We mustn't confuse the function of collecting, evaluating, comparing, and compiling information with one of the uses to which that information is put which, as you pointed out, is a major task, the communication about the IGF.  So a communications exercise is a separate working group with separate skills, separate people, separate targets from the evaluation and collecting of the information.  The information, once it is collected, is useful, for example, for designing programs, for recruiting, for all sorts of purposes.  

 The information that's taken from that source is then selectively prepared for the communications messaging that's required.  So we really do need to separate these functions and these tasks and these working groups.  Thanks.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Yeah, no, they are separate.  The one doing self-assessment, mapping, that will be led by Marilyn.  And then we're now talking about communication strategies and outreach strategies.

 Peter Major, please.

 >> PETER MAJOR:  Thank you.  I fully agree that we are talking about two different things and we should keep that in mind.  And the first thing about the assessment and the usual U.N. way of doing things is probably by the end of the assessment, it will be transformed into some kind of report from the secretariat which will be sent to the CSTD secretariat to be made available to CSTD members during their May meeting.  

 As for the outreach, we may do it in a very complex way.  Probably we won't have the time and the resources to do that.  So what I can think of is some new task for the secretariat to organize some kind of meetings with the local diplomats here in Geneva to give some idea what we are doing and what are the achievements.

 And I'm ready to contribute to that as well.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  I have further Marilyn, Mourad, and Dominique on my list.  Marilyn.

 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you.  My comment is going to be very quick.  

 I do think the working group that I and I think Lea volunteered for before and others will be working on will be a major source of information.  

 I just want to note that really in paragraph 72, this is something that needs to be -- this outreach and communication needs to become a more core part of our ongoing activities.  

 And I would like to volunteer to work in the -- in that group as well because I think that packaging up our story is one of the -- and becoming ambassadors ourselves in an informed way is one of our major objectives for MAG members.  But that means we also have to have materials that MAG members can use.  And I understand the difference in skills.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Mourad.

 >>MOURAD BOUKADOUM:  Thank you.  I just wanted to recall my proposal of yesterday to convene a meeting, an information session, by the IGF secretariat with the permanent mission here in Geneva in order to introduce the forum itself and talk about its achievements so far.

 I would like also to suggest that we use broadly the social network in order to marketize the next event.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Thank you for this proposal.  Actually, I have seven years' experience here in Geneva.  And I can tell you for secretariat, it is not so easy to organize that type of outreach session.  But it is very easy to do it by delegation.  So, therefore, maybe I would invite our next hosts or our previous hosts or hosts of all previous IGFs to get together and to organize one information session to Geneva crowd at a time which is most opportune because sometimes people are very busy running from one meeting to another.  But there are some quiet times.  

 And to my knowledge, the beginning of January always is very quiet.  People are keen to work, but there is nothing happening.  So that's the best time of doing things.  Usually it's happening during the lunchtime, two hours' lunchtime.  Delegates buy sandwiches.  They come, they get their sandwich, they go in the room, and then they have an interaction for about one hour and 30 minutes.  

 So I see Benedicto is already committing himself to do that.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>BENEDICTO FONSECA FILHO:  I had precommitted to this --

 [ Laughter ]

 -- when I decided to propose Brazil for next IGF.  

 I would like to thank colleagues, especially from the delegation here who have indicated their willingness in that regard.  We think it's very important that this outreach be made towards governments which is recognized as one of the -- maybe the stakeholders that is last involved in IGF meetings and especially because there will be this high-level meeting by the end of next year.  It is very important that the delegations be involved in Geneva and maybe more importantly in New York.  And then we have already been giving some thought to this.  We want -- we will be working with our mission to identify appropriate moments.  It will be very good if we could do this in partnership with previous host countries, the future host country, Mexico as well, and other interested parties.

 We think in New York taking into account the current state of negotiations, maybe we should aim to have different kinds of briefings, for example, one addressed to G77, I think would be up for us, G77 members.  Because in New York, this negotiation occurs between groupings, G77 and others.  So it is important.  And then to have a larger reaching out to the wider membership.  We have given thought to that.  And on debate of the discussions we have had in the course of this meeting, this has reinforced our perception of that meeting.

 And also in some -- maybe also in a different setting, you can work together also with you, Janis, with UN-DESA to organize also some outreach.  I think we have to think of maybe some building blocks to make sure we reach out to the negotiators who will be dealing with this who need to -- as Mexico has had to be better informed and to have a sense coming from governments primarily but also from other stakeholders as well.  I think that would be helpful for the purpose we want to achieve.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Benedicto, for committing.

 Please, Hartmut.

 >>HARTMUT GLASER:  Very brief information.  I receive a message from Mark Sanchez (saying name) who is now collecting all materials of the last IGFs.  And I sent him all material, all MP3, all videos, all transcripts from Brazil 2007.  So if we do it, all past organizers, if you have an archive.  I do it, and he is organizing this.  He is well-known in the community.  He's supporting us and he has, let's say, the time or the wish to organize these historical documents.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Very good.  Thank you.  I understand we're getting very excited.

 Silvia is next on my list.  I have a number of people.

 >> SILVIA BIDART:  I would like to volunteer for the outreach activities.  I can also help with different groups and region coordinators.  I participate in private sector, civil society, governments, et cetera.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  


 >>DOMINIQUE LAZANSKI:  Thank you very much.  While I think we all be excellent ambassadors both offline and online for the IGF, I just want to also volunteer our global reach from a GSMA perspective for all that we do.  So just throwing that in.  Thanks.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  As I mentioned, we will organize the Doodle sort of activity where everybody will be able to join in volunteering to different work streams that we're organizing now.  Maybe if we could stick to the substantive points.  I really do not want to prolong the discussion.  I want to go -- I want to go to next agenda items which are maybe more -- not controversial but more complex.

 Ephraim from online participation stream.  Ephraim, are you with us?

 >>EPHRAIM KENYANITO:  I'm here.  This is Ephraim Kenyanito from Kenya for the record.  I just wanted to say I want to register my interest in outreach and communication and especially translating these compositions to young newcomers from developing countries.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Towela?

 >>TOWELA JERE:  Thank you, Chair.  I just wanted to add my voice to the need to actually package information that would actually allow us to actually do this communication and outreach.  And I would also volunteer as far as reaching out to stakeholders through the African Union and through the NEPAD agency.  

 But I wanted to also suggest that perhaps there's a need to maybe ask MAG members to actually submit events that they are aware of that are happening next year that are strategic and that may actually be useful for us to consider engaging with as MAG.  Thank you, Chair.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  I think we have overwhelming sort of understanding of importance of these things.  And I'm looking to Lea now.

 >>LEA KASPAR:  Thank you, Chair.  Just a quick question.  Would these working groups be open to the broader community or just to MAG members?  This is just not known.  Thank you.  If you can clarify.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  We usually try to identify coordinators from the MAG, and then the rest of the group is open to community, specifically to those who used to be MAG members in priority but, of course, everybody else as well.

 I really want to close down this conversation.  I haven't decided yet whom from volunteers I should ask to lead the process.  Maybe Dominique.  Would you agree to launch the activity and then we will see who will join you as a team?

 From my side, I have decided to post at least one blog per month in preparations to the IGF explaining where we are in process and what are the topics, what are our objectives, what we are trying to achieve, and where we are in preparation.  So that is commitment from my side.

 And with this, I would like to close this part of the conversation and move to the few outstanding issues.

 And I was told that IGF Support Association has brief sort of information to share with the MAG.  Am I right?  I'm looking to Markus or to Raul.  This would be just an information without discussion.

 >> RAUL ECHEBERRIA:  Thank you very much, Janis.  

 As you already know, the IGF Support Association was launched during the last IGF meeting in Istanbul.  Here in the room, there are some colleagues that are serving the executive committee.  Avri is here.  Cheryl, Virat, Marilyn, myself.  Markus is the secretariat of the IGF Support Association.

 We finalized the corporation of the organization in Geneva.  We appointed Markus as the secretariat of the association.  And the first month we were working as The Internet Society supporting -- the association providing the secretariat financials for one year free of cost.  So we were working on an agreement on the terms of reference of the work that The Internet Society is providing.

 We form two committees, fund-raising committee that is chaired by Cheryl Miller.  And communication and outreach committee, that's chaired by Marilyn Cade.

 We sent an invite to the members of the association inviting everybody to join one of those committees.  Now that the committees are formed, they are working.  I repeat the invitation to everybody.  So, please, if you are interested in collaborating with the association, joining one of those committees, talk to Cheryl or to Marilyn and be in touch with them.

 The state of financing of the association so far, counting the money already received in the bank account of firm pledges, we have almost $190,000 and it is composed in the following ways.  $1,100 were the initial contributions received in Istanbul.  And we have received contribution from Amazon for $2,500.  Wily Ray (phonetic), $1,000.  Verizon, 2,000.  (phonetic).  CIRA from Canada, $25,000.  And $50,000 from ICANN.  And $100,000 from The Internet Society.

 A report will be published next week, and we will include all those figures.  And this is just because this is the first report we will issue to the community.  But after that, we plan to issue those reports quarterly so in the beginning in January, sometime in January we will issue a new report.

 Today we have opened our own account in Geneva.  So far we were working under an account of The Internet Society, but we opened our own account today.  So now it will take just a few days, we hope, to have the paper mechanism available for making contributions online.  

 For those who already contributed to the association, they will receive receipt probably within the next 15 days.  Some people have asked about that, people that paid cash in Istanbul.  So we are now in a position to start to send invoices -- sorry, receipts to the people.  And we are ready also to invoice the people that have expressed the intention to contribute now that we will issue the invoices with the details for making the contributions online or through wires, depending obviously on the amount of the contributions.

 So basically we are ready to receive your contributions.  So, please, take your pen, open your checks, and take advantage that we are here.  So don't miss this opportunity to make a contribution.

 One of the things that we are discussing in the executive committee now is the criteria for applying the money that we are collecting.  It seems much simpler than what really it is because there is a consensus on the executive committee to apply the money collected to three basic things:  To support the IGF secretariat, to support participation of MAG members in the meetings, to support regional and national IGFs.  There is also agreement that majority -- the majority of the resources will be used for supporting the secretariat, but it is not clear yet what exact percentage and if all that money will go through the U.N. Trust Fund or we will reserve some part of the contribution to the IGF secretariat for being spent on an ad hoc basis.

 The executive committee will elaborate the criteria for its next meeting.  We are holding conferences once a month.  Once we take the decision, surely in the next meeting we will make it public, the criteria.  So all the members will have the opportunity also to express their opinions.

 And the executive committee is also working on other priorities that are the processes, the necessary processes for dealing with those things that I mentioned before.  For example, for support and participation of MAG members, it is necessary to design processes for how to receive applications and how to take issues based on what rules.  Same thing, for example, the capacity we will be able to make contributions to the IGF secretariat.  We talk in our meeting that we have yesterday in making probably two contributions per year.  

 But so we need to develop the procedures for that and I think that all those procedures surely will be ready in the next couple of months.

 So the -- the situation is good.  We are almost -- I think that we need just a few dollars, a few bucks, for accomplishing the goal that we set for the end of 2014.  

 Now, the goals for 2015 are much more ambitious, and so we need from all of you -- and not only from all of you but also the people, all the connections you have, people that you can bring on board.  I think that we all -- all of us here in this meeting are really interested in supporting IGF and ensuring the stability of the process and the secretariat, so I know that you will be contributing with us.

 I have some things here, but -- I have pens for you, and I have also pins.  Pins and pens.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>RAUL ECHEBERRIA:  And I will be happy to give to you now.  And there is also a brochure available.  I think that Virat brought some copies of the brochure to be distributed here.  And also the brochure will be available on line so anybody can download it for using it for outreach purposes.

 I think that that's all.  I hope to not forget anything, but I'm running because of the pressure of the time that I know that you have many things to cover in the meeting today.

 So happy to answer any questions after the meeting or by email.  Please be in touch.  That's all.  Thank you very much.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you very much for this update and for all your assistance.

 I would --

 [ Applause ]

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  We do not have too many questions remaining but they are fairly complex, and so let me list them.

 So one is modalities of intersessional activities, how we will arrange, and we need to get kind of a common understanding what we mean by that and how we will work on that, get some volunteers who would lead that process.

 Secondly, we need to discuss what we do with the invitation by ICANN, CGI, and World Economic Forum to join the council of NETmundial Initiative.  That is an outstanding question from day before yesterday.

 And then we have the last agenda item, any other business, where Chengetai will give a briefing on the state of play with the Web site and the financial situation of IGF and any other questions that he deems necessary to convey to the MAG.

 So let me now turn to the first of the outstanding issues and that is intersessional activities.

 And to give the tone for this conversation or exchange of views, let me explain a little bit where we're coming from and why we're talking about that.

 The recurrent request coming from all quarters, from all groups, is to improve tangible outputs of IGF, and in Istanbul, in the runup to Istanbul, during the Istanbul meeting, we thought that we may want to construct a process that would address those concerns, and in an experimental way start with the minimum we can, with a simple thing, and to test whether what worked in the runup to NETmundial conference would work also for IGF.

 Because, of course, there are differences in the nature of the meetings and the purpose of the meetings and so on.

 So therefore, in the chair's summary, it -- it was -- MAG was invited to provide sort of input and to think about organizing intersessional activities on a theme which would not be too controversial which would have developmental aspects and so on.  You have read the report.

 So then ICC/BASIS proposed a theme "A Policy Menu to Connect" -- "for the Next Billion On Line," so now we would need to discuss how we -- how we will organize our work, how we will involve national and regional IGFs, and what do we expect at the end, in order to address this recurring request to have more tangible outputs from IGF.

 So the floor is open.

 On this topic, Cheryl, please.  You start, then Virat, then Avri.

 >>CHERYL MILLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  I just wanted to volunteer to continue to work on this and help with it.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Virat?

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  I also wanted to volunteer to work on this, and what I wanted to recommend was that in terms of specifics, we have got a couple of things to resolve.  One is the process of engagement of the MAG and the working group, and the second will be the larger community and especially the national and regional IGFs.

 I would suggest that once the working group is created, it could submit its plan and design, let's say towards the end of December, if that's not too early, or if it's a big holiday period, then we could do it in -- by mid-Jan, and based on that, we could then proceed.

 We could keep that open for -- that work plan open for a week for comments, take inputs from the MAG.  If it needs to be more widely circulated, we could do that.  And then hope to begin the actual work by third week of Jan, at the latest, taking into consideration a five-, seven-day holiday period.  

 So that would be the rough timetable to which we would launch this.  But I think the first test would be to get the working group together, to get a specific plan with processes in place, and get inputs from the wider MAG because it's really a product that everybody must own, and then get into the actual functioning of the nuts and bolts of the working.  Because we should aim to produce something by September.  Hopefully, if we have a compendium -- and the end result, for those of you who have had a chance to read that, is to produce a compendium of policy menus which do not override one over the other but basically give you a global level of information.

 I'd like to say one more thing, that the World Bank does a report once in two years which is their strategic report on an issue, and for 2016, the bank is leading a report specifically on related and specific direct issues, so we would also want to reach out to the World Bank because they are doing a global study to try and see what parts of this can contribute to their report and how they could engage with this discussion.

 Similarly, UNESCO, which has parts of this in a study that they are discussing.  So those are at least two well-identified.

 I'm sure ITU has similar information available.

 So a specific engagement with intergovernmental agencies and their involvement, which also goes directly to Section 72 of the Tunis Agenda in its operations and in its implementation.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.

 Avri, please.

 >>AVRI DORIA:  Thank you.  I don't know how I made feedback, but good for me.

 I was going to volunteer, too, but now I'm confused again.

 First of all, as I had spoken of before, I -- I did not think it was supposed to be a top-down thing, yet another top-down thing, where MAG decides what it's working on and then it goes about doing it.

 And what I had suggested when we talked about it earlier was that, you know, perhaps we found a couple efforts that we got started, that each of those efforts had at least one MAG person that was willing to kind of shepherd the effort and see what they could get out of it and see who they could attract to working on something, and then at some milestone point down the road we would look at the ones that had gotten started and see which of those had enough substance, had enough capability of actually coming to an outcome to sort of put more energy behind it, while allowing the others to keep working, and if they didn't come up with an outcome this year, well, then if there is another year, they would be able to continue working, and if there wasn't another year of the IGF, they could continue working on the regionals and other things.

 In other words, the thing that was important about it was that it was work that needed to be done, that there were MAG members and community participants at large that wanted to participate in and wanted to actually work; that outcome is important, but in some sense it's secondary to it being something that people want to do, that wants to get done.

 So I'm interested in working on an effort but I'm kind of concerned about getting involved in something that has a lot of up-front process and is very MAG top-down.

 So I'm not sure -- as I say, I'm back to being confused.

 But I do finally have some understanding of the menu, though I prefer to think of a buffet.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  As I mentioned, this is kind of experiment this year, to see how far we can get in addressing the concerns because you see where is the danger?  The danger is to change the nature of IGF.  And in -- in the conversations, I usually use the analogy of a tram.

 We have built a tram, and that was back 10 years ago.  And now there is a request to make this tram go faster, and we're trying to do that and most probably we can make the tram go faster.  We can even turn the tram around like a train.

 But what is -- one thing is for sure.  We cannot make this tram to fly.  If we want to fly, we need to build an airplane.

 So therefore, there is a limitation how far we can sort of evolve IGF, and then when we need to say, "Okay, this is not anymore IGF as it was created, now we're creating either IGF Version 2 or we're creating something new."

 So -- and therefore, what we need to do is to experiment and see how that works in the setting.

 If that works fine, let's continue in that direction.  If that does not work, so then let's consider why it didn't work.

 Constance, please.

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

 I'm happy to volunteer and join the efforts with ICC, Virat, and others, but only if Avri joins the group.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  And I will say this because I think the menu proposal is interesting, although the document is a little long and I still need to go back to it, and I think we should consider it as a proposal, a basis on which we can build.

 I still have concerns about launching new themes, another track, while we have already foundations, including the best practices but also messages coming out of main sessions or workshops, and I'd like to make sure we -- we stay consistent and also reflect what's going on in terms of building the agenda, and I think the voice of civil society is absolutely critical so I'm awaiting confirmation from Avri.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Lynn?

 >>LYNN ST. AMOUR:  Thank you, Chair.  Lynn St. Amour.

 I also wanted to volunteer for that work because I actually think it's very critical to the IGF's future development.

 And while I support Avri's comments in principle and I think there's an opportunity to do what she's suggesting, I think it's just as important that we actually ensure that we maximize that track or that opportunity to try and advance -- you know, get the step up that we've all said we think the IGF is both ready for and that we're all looking for.

 So I wanted to support Avri's comments, and at the same time say that I think that we probably need another parallel effort, as well, to ensure that it actually does work to advance the IGF the way that, Janis, you know, you've talked about a number of times.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.


 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you.  At the risk of saying the same thing now the fourth time or maybe the 14th, I'm very enthused about inviting the national and regional IGFs to consider participating and contributing.

 I think you may find -- I did a mini-study a couple of years ago with Dr. Dima [phonetic] Epstein from Cornell at the time, and I think you may find that some will say we've already addressed this or we've addressed it differently or we are addressing it differently.

 So as long as we provide flexibility for the national or regional IGF to say, "We really want to focus on the content aspect," "We want to focus on indigenous content," "We want to focus on" -- as long as we're open to that, I think that we will find some wish to participate.  Others may not.  As long as we're flexible and open, I think this can be a good idea.

 On the issue that Constance raised of we also have best practice forums, one of the really interesting things to me about the best practice forums is they brought in the non-attendee participants from the community because they draw on experts, people who are particularly interested in the topic of the best practice forum.

 So I'm not sure I see those as duplicative effort at this time.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.

 I would need also some -- some comments from government representatives because we are now having all groups except government group on board on this very topic.


 >>CHERYL MILLER:  Thank you, Chair.

 I just wanted to respond and clarify a little bit.

 The proposal was in no way meant to be sort of a top-down proposal that we're wedded to.  It really was created to further the discussion and to receive feedback from everyone.  From government, from civil society, technical community, et cetera.

 I do note that -- I note Avri's comments and in principle I do understand and I support where she's going.  I also hope that Avri will join the group.  It is critical that civil society is a part of this, so that we can try and move it forward.  And it's in no way intended to compete with the best practice forums or other initiatives of the IGF.

 I think for me, I participated in -- in part, in one of the dynamic coalitions, and the difficulty was that we all found that while the work moving forward was good work, there was no process, and so we kind of got stuck right there and that's something that we started talking about earlier.

 And so that was, in part, part of the reason why we looked to different criteria that already exists and what different organizations such as IETF and others are doing to try to start to put together some initial criteria that we could discuss and see what made sense and see how we could kind of move this thing forward.

 So thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Juan Alfonso.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  Thank you, Chairman.

 At the risk of saying the same thing 14 times, as Marilyn said, I think that what I recommend is to have coherence in what we are doing intersessionally and with the main themes of the IGF itself.

 I already said that next year is a special year, so maybe the IGF has to be special itself.

 In past years, the IGF has been some sort of -- how can I tell it in English? -- smorgasbord of topics, you know, distributed, because it's a very bottom-up, and it's good.  It's for policy dialogue.  But I think that in next year, we have to pay more attention in a little -- not for the voices but for the ears to whom we have to send this message.

 We are going to send this message to the global community, the global political community of the world, so we need to have coherence.

 I just make this recommendation.  Whatever topic is selected for the -- for the main themes or the subthemes, I suggest that also the intersessional efforts and also the best practice efforts should be all surrounding that in order not to disperse the voice of the IGF in that special year.

 I think that this doesn't mean (indiscernible) to the spirit of the IGF.  I think it's a tactical move that we have to make in a very special year.  Coherence, coherence, coherence.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  ICC/BASIS?

 >>ICC/BASIS:  Thank you, Chair.

 I won't reiterate too much what has been said by my colleagues, but I would like to say that our intention in developing and putting forward this proposal was actually in response to the consultation process that was initiated by the ICC -- the IGF secretariat.

 So it is in no way whatsoever intended as a top-down process.  It's an idea that we put on line quite some time ago and then have extracted the abridged version of these recommendations and have circulated them for discussion, for cooperation, and evaluation collectively in this -- in this group today.

 And it is our hope that the MAG can pull together a working group that would include Avri and others to a broad representation of colleagues to evolve and help shape this to reflect everyone's perspectives and concerns so that we come out with something that's meeting the needs for this very unique year, as everyone has pointed out.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you, Virat.

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Chairman, I wanted to make three quick points.  One is the fact that this is a proposal by a non-MAG member in response to open consultation which has found its way even in the synthesis paper of the secretariat.  And so in that sense, if it is coming in response to an open consultation and has been on the net for almost a month and a half, that would be considered bottom-up because I'm now kind of -- now I'm confused about the concept of bottom-up.  It is a non-MAG member.  It is on the net.  It is for over a month.  And it is in the synthesis paper.

 The second point that I would like to mention is that when we set formal working groups, it doesn't have to be a working group of only MAG members.  The working group is basically just trying to get the structure in place so that they can go consult all the communities outside that working group and then bring other people into the working group, including and especially regional and national IGFs who I think would contribute to this in year one and hopefully when the compendium is ready, it will serve as a capacity-building exercise for them.  So it has a two-way meaning for both of which are strongly enshrined in the Tunis Agenda.

 And the last point I would make is that we would request both governments and especially Avri and our colleagues, Mark, others, to join the group and contribute with their ideas and tell us and guide us in how we can make it more inclusive.  Take it out to all people and have the whole community contribute to that.  

 We are completely open to any of the discussions that come in.  But we have to start somewhere, and this is a submission for us to consider.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Mark?

 >>MARK CARVELL:  Thanks very much.  Well, that's a very neat segue to government in respect of my role as a contributor.  I mean, I'm very happy to put my name forward and engage substantively in the work.  I think the problem for myself and perhaps I might be speaking on behalf of Ana Neves and Olga Cavalli as well is that we're GAC members and we're completely overwhelmed with the ICANN and IANA processes and ICANN accountability processes at the moment.

 But with that caveat in terms of pressure on us as government leads in ICANN on all that loading, yes, I would be very happy to contribute from the U.K. seat.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Fiona.

 >>FIONA ALEXANDER:  Yes, thank you, Janis.  My apologies to you and others in the room.  I just want to understand what the question is on the table.  Is the idea that we want to create a working group to look at intersessional activities and the ICC-BASIS contribution informs that?  Or is that solely what we're going to be looking at?  Or is it the idea that the ICC-BASIS document starts the conversation and as the working group continues its conversation, perhaps things change or get amended?  I think that would be helpful for me to understand what exactly the question is on the table.

 And then just to the point of process, I think that the MAG needs to figure out how to incorporate in every step of every activity it does the concept of public consultation.  And I would pause here to figure out what "public consultation" actually means for us and define it and actually have some parameters around how we actually do it.  That might be helpful in what we do, not just for this but for all the things we're doing.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  In clarifying your question, so I see that this working group that I would like to ask to coordinate and moderate to Avri, Virat, and Lynn and Mourad.  And the lucky winner is Mourad as a government representative but, of course, taking into account that Mark already volunteered.  

 They would do the following.  They would come with proposal how this intersessional work would be constructed, how the national/regional IGFs could be involved, how they could input in the document, or whatever this intersessional work will produce.  So what would be the theme?  

 There is a proposal from ICC-BASIS that I hear gather some traction, not 100% but there were a number of voices in favor of that proposed topic.  And would organize and coordinate that process, maybe proposing to organize an open-ended process involving all community when things are very clear and then would be working or whatever output we would bring to the IGF meeting in Brazil.

 So that is -- that may be one of the most long-term projects that we're now embarking on.

 So this is my answer to your question.

 Benedicto, please.

 >>BENEDICTO FONSECA FILHO:  Yes.  Just to comment that by default, we are interested in being contributed as much as we can to any working group that would be established here that applies to the self-assessment group, to the other group that was also established in outreach and communication on this one as government but also as part of the Brazilian Steering Committee.  

 We also -- of course, for us, since this event would be held under the aegis of the steering committee, we want to make sure we have people working on all those tracks and contributing to the extent we can.

 We hope to rely on this collective capacity of work including government participation, and we hope that our own addition will not be exceeded by our capacity.  

 But by default we want to be part of all the groups.  We will make the best we can to contribute to the success of this.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  As I mentioned, we will do this Doodle poll where everybody will be able to sign up for different groups as we go along and we create them.

 Thank you very much.  I think we got to the point of agreement.  Peter.

 >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Just to make the same point that I made earlier.  There is a risk if you take the intersessional work and you link that to liaison with the regional and national IGFs of running two or three different processes together.  Now, obviously we don't need to form a separate working group on every single issue, and there is a risk of too many committees.  But just to keep an eye on the fact that the intersessional work is one thing, and we've got a series of targets of work for the intersessional work.  And we've had a very carefully prepared suggestion from the community about that.

 The issue with the regional and national IGFs and linking them to the work is actually slightly different and it actually would come to its apex at the session, if you'd like, at the IGF itself.  So it is in many ways not related to intersessional work.  It is a way of bringing them into the sessional work.

 So as I say, there is a risk of having a different working group on every good idea.  And I'm not suggesting that, but just to keep an eye on the fact that there really are two quite distinct issues being bundled together.  And maybe this working group can manage them both.  But just to keep an eye on it so if they do start to separate out, we take proper account of it.  Thanks.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you, Peter.

 I think we will get reports on the progress on each of the tracks we're creating as we advance.  And if there will be need to make a correction, we certainly will make a correction.

 So thank you for this decision.

 We have maybe -- another topic.  This is what we do then with best practices.  I think we have identified best practices, the themes for best practices.  New words would Internet and gender, that would IXPs, and maybe IPv4/IPv6 transition.  That was proposed and supported by many.  I see that there is a request from de Natris who was the consultant who was working in the best practice compilations this year.  And if you don't mind, I would invite him to share brief experience that he has.

 >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.  Good afternoon, everybody.  What I would like to share is more as a private person than as the consultant because my tenure is up by now.  What I would like you to realize is that when you have asked these experts from around the world to deliver this input, you also raised a lot of expectations with them because what actually happened in the two groups to be able to facilitate is they came up with questions that really transgress their own constituencies, which made actually topics that are multistakeholder and that they cannot solve themselves within their own constituency because they need other stakeholders which may have been at the table or were not at the table because they were not interested or not aware of these topics.

 So, in other words, there were a lot of questions raised that need addressing that now there's an expectation of all these experts that they are looking to view basically to follow it up somehow.  And that's the message that I would like to convey to you, that perhaps it looks like these topics are over.  And in the end, they're not.  The real questions that they cannot solve on their own are now at the table, and that's why I would like to urge you to look at that and see in what way the MAG would actually -- and the IGF would actually help these topics forward.  

 That could be by inviting workshops from these reports.  And that's another way of looking at it, than looking at it in a way that needs more work.  Maybe they could be solved by bringing people together or taking these topics to other constituencies where these topics could be solved.  That's basically the lesson that I took with me in the work over the past months.  Thank you for your attention.  Good afternoon.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us and your thoughts.  Of course, we may hope that organizations or individuals will propose workshops on those outstanding issues or issues that came up as a result of this engagement on best practice compilations.

 So any volunteers?  Any thoughts on how to best organize the best practice work stream?  Constance.

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Thank you.  I'm happy to -- with others, to lead -- co-lead on the best practices.  But my understanding again is that really the best practices should be part of the broader effort on intersessional work.  And I'd like this to be part of the same working group Virat, Avri, and others would join.

 Just on the comments made by Wout, to add on them -- and I echo what he said -- there is a need as we develop these best practices to make sure that all the workshop organizers on related themes feed into or send information.  And this is something that technically did not happen for logistical reasons, but we should absolutely do for 2015.  Thanks.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you for volunteering together with others.  

 Desiree, are you volunteering for this?

 >>DESIREE ZACHARIAH:  Most definitely.  I would like to volunteer with this one, as well as I will send an email about another working group.

 But concerning this best practice, I think in the past, we had a situation we created a shared platform, a shared document platform or portal of some sort so that I'm not exactly sure what the secretariat facilities are but we can probably use something provided free of cost from Google or another provider.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Constance, please.

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Just to bounce on the question about the platform, what the IGF secretariat did for the 2014 edition is that they looked at the NETmundial online platform for collecting, compiling comments before integrating them in the drafts through an iterative process.  Intentionally we followed the NETmundial methodology that had been successful for Sao Paulo.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  We have now two volunteers.  I'm not very sure that this should be the same working group because I see that there's slight differences also in the reason behind launching of that activity.  

 So we can see if that working group can take that on board and whether at one point best practices may just ring out from that working group, if that's acceptable.  

 Thank you.  We have two more volunteers, coordinators of this part of the activities being part of the bigger working group on intersessional activities.

 So now let us move to the next outstanding question, is the NETmundial Initiative and IGF taking a seat in the council, not permanent seat but taking a seat in the council of NETmundial Initiative.

 Desiree, on this question or on the previous one?  Please.

 >>DESIREE ZACHARIAH:  On the previous one, Mr. Chair.  Desiree Zachariah speaking.

 What I wanted a clarification on, was it intended for there to be a working group -- a coordinator of best practices?  Or was every best practice group required to do their own coordination?

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So I think at the beginning, we need to start with one sort of -- two coordinators working and launching the process.  And then we will see -- I think that every best practice stream should have a coordinator.  But for the moment, we're starting with the one launching everything and then we will go sort of in each section, each stream.

 So I understand this is on the topic on NMI and IGF taking a seat.

 Peter, are you on this question?  Your name tag is up again all the time.  No, you're not.

 So let me then list that I have noted.  We have Marilyn.  We have Juan Alfonso.  We have Mark.  We have Lea.  And in that order I will take comments.

 Marilyn, please.

 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Say something good, please.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>MARILYN CADE:  My name is Marilyn Cade.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  That we have heard a number of times today.

 [ Applause ]

 On that, we have unanimous agreement.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>MARILYN CADE:  Let me open my comments by saying that I was, like everyone in the wider community, interested to see the announcement of something called the NETmundial Initiative.  I've done my best to follow its progress and variations as it is evolving.

 I have still a number of concerns about where it may go and what it may do, and I think it will continue to evolve with further input from many in the community who have called for more -- for less top-down and more organic development.

 I understand that the so-called seats are not permanent seats now, but that does not change the concern that I have about a linkage between the MAG chair position and the NETmundial Initiative.

 I am very aware of the opportunities where really only the MAG chair and the MAG secretariat will be able to speak in a variety of important settings coming up ahead of us that includes the CSTD meeting, it includes hopefully the UNESCO meeting, but many others where the representational identity of being the MAG chair is really important.

 Now, we as the MAG are advisors to the secretary-general.  We are not a legal body.  We're not an institution.  And I'm sure that the intention in reaching out to make this offer was well-intentioned, but I'm uncomfortable with linking the -- with having the MAG chair take a seat on that -- in that structure.

 Not the least because I don't -- I'm not really sure how it is contributing to the evolution and enhancement and strengthening the IGF.

 I think that's yet to be seen.

 My priority is this organization.

 Having said that, if there is a view widely across the MAG that it would be good to have a limited liaison relationship with NMI, then I would propose that that should become the secretariat and that it not become overwhelmingly a time compliment, since I'm overwhelming today with the workload we have ahead of us.

 Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you very much.  Juan Alfonso.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  Thank you, Chairman.  

 Before giving my opinion, I want two clarifications.

 First is now I'm going to speak in my personal capacity, given -- and give my opinion to this problem at hand.

 And the second is that I don't want to evaluate ideologically any initiative.

 Many here should know, or many should imagine, that I have very strong ideological views.

 But I want -- as a member of the MAG, I try to leave that outside this room because the MAG is not a policy group.  It's not a policy working group.  We are an organizing working group.  Sort of wedding planners, but with a more fancy name.

 [ Laughter ]

 [ Applause ]

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  So in this case, it's in -- with this view is how I want to analyze this subject.

 The first is about initiatives itself.  I think it's good.  It's good that many initiatives regarding Internet governance happens, and on the way we cannot pose.  If the planet Mars wants to have an initiative in Internet governance, we should applaud that happened.

 Also we cannot oppose.  They will do it if they want to.  Even closer to home if the Vatican wants to have an Internet governance initiative, that's welcome.

 So -- and especially if this initiative wants to collaborate.

 So I think it's good that this initiative opens for that collaboration with the Internet Governance Forum.  

 But I think the invitation was badly done because the MAG, as I said -- tell you, we are a little more than wedding planners.  We are not the ones to be invited.  IGF was convened by the secretary-general of the United Nations as a result of a decision agreed by head of states in (indiscernible).  So I think this invitation should be addressed to the United Nations secretary-general.  The secretary-general then, maybe he can appoint the head of the MAG or maybe the head of the secretariat or maybe the head of UNDESA, Under Secretary, or maybe somebody in UNDESA or maybe they -- because we are his advisors, maybe they will -- the ball will come back to us to give them advice on who should sit in that.

 So that's the first thing.

 And the second thing is about collaboration.

 If there's an invitation to collaborate, it should be without any strings attached.  I find very puzzling that in the Web site you have to say that you agree with the NETmundial outcomes, or something like that.

 I was wondering, to make an experiment, to propose myself and answering "no," if I agree with NETmundial outcome, and see what happens, you know?

 Because this is -- this is not collaboration if it's -- if it has conditions.  

 It's like the martians say "I want to collaborate with you but you have to have green skin to collaborate with us."

 [ Laughter ]

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  Or like the Vatican, "I want to collaborate with you but you have to be Roman Catholic to collaborate with me."  That's good.  Maybe they want to have an Internet governance initiative only for Roman Catholics, but that's an internal affair, that is not a global outreach thing.

 So if they want to collaborate, it should not have any strings attached.  

 And finally, I said I would speak in this, leaving ideology, but maybe you were wondering so I will tell you a little bit about that.

 I can only say at this stage that of the three conveners, I like much one of them, I dislike much one of them, and the third is comme ci, comme ca.  The word is out there.  You can figure it out.  Thank you.

 [ Applause ]

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Okay.  So, you know -- you know, since we're in this mode, there is one.  Two people are in a hot air balloon in the mist.  They don't know where they are.  And so they are trying to understand.  

 And then somebody sees people on the roof of the building and they approach them and say, "Where we are?"  

 And some people on the roof answer, "You are in the balloon."  

 "Thank you."

 So after a few seconds, they say, "I know where we are.  We are over the State Department."  


 "Because the answer was very precise but totally useless."

 [ Laughter ]

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Sorry to say, I didn't hear what was your position?  Should we join or not?

 [ Laughter ]

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  No.  Of course I believe in collaboration.  I think that even -- even if we have -- on any topic, if we have ideological differences, if we have very -- if we have the terms of reference of the collaboration and in this case we're collaborating to make Internet a better medium for humanity and mankind, it's like going to a party.  

 You sometimes are invited to a party and you go.  Maybe the party turns sour and then you leave out.  But you can you cannot prejudge any initiative.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  So I'm for collaboration, but there are two things that for me precludes collaboration.  

 The invitation.  It has to go through the proper channels.  It has to go to the United Nations secretary-general and he will -- maybe he will appoint you and we will all applaud that.

 And the second thing, that collaboration should not have a -- some strings attached and some conditions.  That's ridiculous in the Web site that they say you have to be with -- you know, you have to endorse this document.

 You know, the IGF, by the way, has much more legitimacy than any other institution or initiative that are out there or will be out there --

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ: -- because it comes from the United Nations, it comes from a summit in which our heads of state, with the voice also that it was first time in United Nations summit of the other stakeholders --

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ: -- all asked for this --

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you, Juan.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ: -- and everybody was on board with this.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you, Juan.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  So I think my answer to your question is to collaborate but if it's invited right and without conditions.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  Very clear answer.

 So I had Mark and then Lea.

 >>MARK CARVELL:  Yes.  Thank you, Chair.

 I think we should respond positively to the invitation.  It's clear, from my understanding, that the NETmundial Initiative seeks to complement the IGF and through its objectives in creating an online platform, that's going to serve to support developing countries, projects, and expand international effort in the whole area of Internet governance.  It seems highly appropriate that there is a meaningful conjunction of the initiative and the IGF, so I would support that.  

 I'm not volunteering to be the MAG representative on it, if you're looking for somebody from -- from the MAG to perform that function.  As I indicated before, we're pretty heavily loaded.

 But I also wanted to sort of raise the potential of the initiative to contribute in taking forward IGF activities intersessionally.  That could be explored through our direct participation in the -- in the council and reporting back to the MAG accordingly and so on.

 So broadly I'm in favor of it, and I hope we can take a quick decision on that in terms of identifying who could -- who could lead for us and report back to us on the council's work and so on.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.

 We have exactly 70 minutes doing that.  A number of people have asked for the floor.

 Lea, please.

 >>LEA KASPAR:  Thank you.  I'm not sure if I missed something.  I thought we were still on the previous agenda item and I wanted to make an intervention about that.  Is it still okay?  And I wanted to get a clear sense of what's happening now with the working groups and what the process is with going forward.

 And my -- I was trying to put together a list of how many we've set up and what the process will be for volunteering, just to make sure that the people in the MAG have a chance -- who are not here or who left the meeting or couldn't attend can still have a chance to volunteer, but also to see how the wider community will be able to join these working groups.

 Just --

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  I will try to answer those questions and -- I'll try to answer those questions in my concluding remarks.

 >>LEA KASPAR:  Okay.  Okay.  Thank you very much.


 >>ANA NEVES:  Thank you very much.  Well, I have to say that I'm -- I'm in favor of -- with what Juan Fernandez said.

 I have a problem because I don't understand what -- what NETmundial is.  I understand what the NETmundial event was, but I don't understand what NETmundial is.

 And I don't understand why NETmundial is inviting MAG and MAG is -- is not a legal body.  And actually, I think that if NETmundial Initiative, the people that are, well, involved think that MAG or IGF should be discussed or -- I don't want to be -- to say "part of."  

 I think that the invitation must be addressed to the United Nations secretary-general and not to the chair of the MAG because we are not a legal body, we are advisors, and it will be the other way around.  I think that IGF should discuss NETmundial initiatives and not NETmundial initiatives to have MAG on board.

 And it has been said it's good to have initiatives on Internet governance.  Of course we are not against at all.

 But the problem is that -- as I don't understand it, my problem is when they start to do something that touches where my -- where the policy -- where I'm navigating has something to do with, so I become a bit cautious.

 So I don't have any problems with the -- with the initiative as long as it doesn't touch anything I understand.  

 Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you, Ana.

 I think Nora tried to explain what this initiative is about.  You know, that in the NETmundial final document, in the part of the way forward, it has been very strong call to support IGF and to strengthen IGF through a different means, and initiative, as we heard, is to contribute towards implementation of NETmundial outcome.

 So that -- that is how we see.  There has been, of course, lack of information.  

 From Nora's clarification, we heard that there will be a number of parts.  One is activity in this year's Davos meeting, where there will be a session organized specifically on Internet governance, promoting multistakeholder model.

 There is work to create a platform where those who are interested could find information, sort of a solution or proposal where to turn when solution is needed and so on.

 So these are elements that we know.

 Tomorrow will be a call, information call, where every question will be clarified within the limit of time allocated for the call.

 So I would like also to say that the invitation, as far as I understand, is open-ended.  Everybody's invited to submit their -- or to manifest their interest.

 Of course one can understand that maybe it is not overly polite through the press to invite secretary-general of United Nations to do that.  There are other different forums how to do it.  But in principle, everybody is invited, and actually it is not the MAG which is invited.  That is, IGF is invited to be part of the council.  But since IGF is a process, the MAG is representative of that process and the MAG is invited to nominate a representative.

 So we had this initial exchange on the -- on the MAG list where a few of the MAG members said that there should be a chair.  You said that that should not be -- but that was in the context of permanent, a permanent seat for IGF MAG.

 Now we need to decide, so there is a proposal that that should not be a member of the council, that should be just a liaison to the council, so this is where we are now.

 Next on my list is Maria Victoria.

 >>MARIA VICTORIA ROMERO:  Thank you, Chair.

 Following your explanation, I'm still wondering if MAG or IGF has the mandate to answer or to respond to such an invitation.

 And first, I see we have two options.  We can -- either following the U.N. procedure, as Juan already explained, to have an invitation addressed to the secretary-general because we belong to that, or we can follow Marilyn's proposal of having a limited liaison to go to NETmundial, and I tend to favor probably the second one because this is probably the easiest.

 Thank you, Chair.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.


 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I -- first, I want to just preface this comment by saying that I have personally, and as a wedding planner, the highest regard for NETmundial principles because it involves discussions around NETmundial principles.  I think that was an excellent example of how multistakeholder initiatives can work bottom-up.  And also, for the aspirations and objectives that NETmundial Initiative is trying to pursue.  So I want to park that point first.

 Four sets of questions have been raised today and on line in this discussion.  

 One is around process.

 There's a question around protocol and propriety of invitations.

 On the clarity of objectives and what it hopes to achieve.

 And then there is the issue of implications, which is, once you join, what happens?  

 I'm going to try to limit myself to the point of implications for MAG, in case which invitation has to be processed.

 Any of the MAG members are free to join this, as you've already clarified.  There is no restriction.  Anybody can put their name forward.  They can do that.

 Many of the MAG members actually join many of the initiatives.  They serve on it with absolutely no issue.

 But the MAG, per se, has always been secular, in that it has been equidistant and loves all such initiatives equally.  It has not shown and it has not gone and fed into or participated in any discussion as either MAG, but it has shown the highest respect for these events.  It has found a place to discuss plenipot, to discuss WCIT, to discuss substantially NETmundial, and I think again it will discuss.

 But it has always been secular.  The businesses, as you are aware, has asked about 30-odd questions.  We have sort of put that online.  We are hoping some of those questions will be addressed tomorrow.  They are both process and substantive.  Here's the part I think we need to pay attention to.  I will read from the NETmundial Initiative Web site which is, "Embrace NETmundial principles as a precondition to be nominated to the Coordination Council, to sign up your name as a public advocate of NETmundial principles."  But the one that MAG needs to look at carefully is the following:  If representing an organization, the nominee must confirm that their organization will officially embrace the NETmundial principles.  So you have to confirm that if you are to join.

 Now, would that be the MAG as the organization or would it be the United Nations or UN-DESA?  What would the organization be?  And if it is the organization, then -- and let's assume it's MAG because if it is U.N. or UN-DESA, that's a whole different ball game.  But let's assume it is the MAG.  

 Then each one of us has to confirm to it.  But each one of us then represents either companies or civil societies or organizations and have been voted through a process to come into this entire thing, which means each one of us then have to embrace this.  That is a legal issue.

 It is one thing to be in a room helping contribute to a non-binding document through a rough consensus.  It is something else to write in that we officially embrace this as an organization.  So I'm on the point of the legal issue that is -- which arises out of this verbiage here, not about individuals but about organizations.  And that means all of us have to then consider the implications of this on each one of us, on the governments that we represent, on the companies that we represent.

 And that, it seems to me, is not clear.  So if you can get some clarity on that on the questions that have been sought, then perhaps there is a way forward.  But if, in fact, this means each one must accept it and embrace it, then that will have to go back to a bunch of -- at least 55 into 3, about 165 lawyers who would have to look at this and then be able to respond on whether you can say yes to something like this.  

 I will leave it at that.  I have no clarity.  But this is a phrase that I think that comes into play when we talk about you as Chair of MAG representing on that Coordination Council.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Sounded like a lawyer yourself.  Are you?

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  No, I'm not.  I have never been accused of that.  Thank you.

 [ Laughter ]

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Constance, please.

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Thank you, Chair.  And thank you for the good laugh, Virat.

 With regards to this important question, in my view, there really is no urgency to address this question.  I mean, a lot of communities, organizations have raised some concerns, questions, requests for clarification about the NETmundial Initiative.  And we do have in mind that it is difficult to build two houses at the same time.  At The Internet Society we are very committed to focusing on the IGF.  At the same time, we have a fluid dialogue with stakeholders, all stakeholders, and Brazil -- and we are committed to the Sao Paulo declaration.

 Since there is no more permanent seat on the council, again, I don't think that the 15th of December deadline is for this group to consider.  I think we should take the time to see how the initiative evolves.  

 Again, we are very interested in the Sao Paulo declaration and we'd like to see how we can implement some of the principles through the IGF.  And in my view, we should explore how we take those principles and inject them in the agenda of IGF 2015.

 I also believe that Brazil will play a natural role of liaison between the initiative and the IGF community since they're hosting IGF 2015.

 Maybe this is a question this group can reconsider once there's more clarity on the NETmundial Initiative, bearing in mind that the Sao Paulo declaration is a very strong text for our group.  It really calls the IGF to strive towards better outcomes for the IGF and strengthen processes.  So I think we should keep the channel of communication absolutely open.  But at the same time, we still have -- we still have time.

 If the invitation went to the Secretary-General and that there was a decision that the Chair should play some sort of role, I do believe that we should make sure we have strong and complete consensus within the MAG before proceeding.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  

 Fiona is next.

 >>FIONA ALEXANDER:  Yes, thank you, Janis.

 I would like to start by associating with the comments that Mark made earlier about why this could be a good thing and why I'd be supportive of it.

 If nothing else, whatever happened to the NETmundial Initiative -- and it is still in its early formative stages -- it has the potential to impact the IGF.  And it seems, if nothing else, understanding what's happening and having that liaison of understanding is a good thing.  So, again, I think it would be useful.

 I think the bottom line, though, is whether you as the Chair personally have the time.  And if you are willing to do it, I think it should be something to be considered and you should do if you want to.

 I do find it slightly ironic that we spent the better part of the last three days talking about outreach with other parts of the Internet governance community.  But then when a group of stakeholders tries to put together an initiative and reaches out to us, the response from some in the room is no and procedural, which by the way is very governmental in nature.  It is just an interesting observation on the conversation of the last few days.

 Again, I would just like to agree with the comments made by Mark earlier.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Avri.

 >>AVRI DORIA:  Thank you.  Thank you.  I tend -- first of all, I actually wanted to bring up the notion that while the Tunis Agenda had the IGF initiated by the U.N., it is not a U.N. body.  And so I think any of the formality of consideration that we've got into about needing to go to the Secretary-General and all that is really more complexity than we need to get into.

 Again, I tend to look at this one rather simply.  The hosts of the place we're going for a major meeting who are putting themselves out to welcome us to their country for an important meeting are also part of another endeavor that is basically inviting us to participate, and I believe that the IGF should participate.

 Now, whether it's the Chair or whether we say, "No, it's actually better for the secretariat to attend and to do the follow-through and understanding" and such that we need to do to, you know, be there, to participate, to be the communication path, call it a liaison, call it a council member.  It is just a name.  It really doesn't matter.  These associations, they come.  They go.

 We should participate in it.  It is somewhat about the IGF.  It concerns the IGF.  And I think we're overthinking it.  I think we have an invite to participate in something.  But if it is too heavyweight to send "the MAG" or the MAG Chair, I think it makes perfect sense for the secretariat to participate and to track it for us and come back and let us know what's actually happening as opposed to dealing with all the rumors and everything we get from here and there and so on.  So that's my view on it.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.


 >>HOSSAM ELGAMAL:  Thank you, Chair.  I think the NETmundial Initiative could be a very great thing.  We don't know now.  We have no idea exactly where it is going.  But for sure that for the MAG Chair to have a seat, it would be seen as decisions coming from the Council, where the MAG Chair would have one out of 25 voting rights, like having a consent of the MAG.  And this is -- I don't think is valid.  This is why a liaison synchronizing with the NETmundial Initiative could be a good thing.  But having formalization of having the MAG Chair on there, I think it would be misleading as such.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.


 >>CHERYL MILLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  I do recognize that there are a number of outstanding questions with respect to a formal seat on the Coordination Council.  And so I think at this time, I would be hesitant to support that.

 Now, participation definitely comes in many different forms, and I think the IGF has at least since the last IGF in Istanbul really tried with participate with the NETmundial Initiative bring forward some of the things.  And I'm sure that we will be doing that again moving forward.  

 With respect to the actual Council seat, I'm not sure we're there yet.  I think it would be fair to first have those answers to the questions before moving forward.

 And I think over the past few days, we have focused quite a lot on procedure, and it brings me to my next point.  It seems as we are coming up on this 10th anniversary, there are actually a lot of questions with respect to the role of the MAG in a number of different areas.  So with respect to the selection of themes and subthemes, how we go about that, the intersessional work.  I saw a note on the list about social networking and fund-raising and other requirements that some of us may, may not understand, or some of the roles may have changed now that we are at this new inflection point of the IGF.

 So I would suggest that perhaps we look towards creating some type of -- if not a main session, maybe a special session that really looks to these issues and gets community input and sort of discusses what the role of the MAG really should be moving forward.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.


 >>FATIMA CAMBRONERO:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  This is Fatima.  In my opinion -- and, of course, I could be wrong, the role of the MAG members and our Chair is working in preparation of each IGF without external distraction or activity.  And, of course, the outreach could be done regarding to the activities of the MAG or the IGF with external activities.  That's all.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Juan Alfonso for the second time.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  Two things, Chairman.  First, I beg to disagree with Avri.  We are United Nations.  Who selected the MAG?  I think I was selected by the Secretary-General.  At least that's what it says on the Web site.  And who -- the secretariat to whom depends.  Depends on UN-DESA and also United Nations.  So we are United Nations.  That would be liking of somebody or the unliking of some others, but that's reality.

 And the other thing, let me tell you, again.  I think as Fiona said and Mark said before, I think that we should collaborate.  All Internet governance initiatives should collaborate.  But I put only this comment that the invitation should go through the proper channels and with no strings attached.

 And to the case of if MAG should need to have consensus or not, please, I don't want to, again, repeat that we are only -- we are not a policy group.  We are planners.  I don't want to say it again because maybe it is not so sexy, but we are planners.  We advise for the planning of an event.  We're event planners.

 So we should -- of course, personally, we should have -- and everybody has an authority to be for it or against it.  It is early to prejudge.  Even knowing that some of the organization I don't personally like, but I can give it maybe it is useful.  I don't know.  If it is not useful, we can step out.  

 But, Chairman, I think that invitation should go, I repeat, through U.N. channels.  And then we will decide whether it is the MAG to participate, whether it is the secretariat.  Maybe the president of the General Assembly will be the representative of the secretariat.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  What I hear is that IGF should be present and cooperate.  So this is what I hear.  That's already one conclusion that we can make.

 So NETmundial, as I mentioned already, was very supportive to IGF.  And as far as we heard on Monday, the initiative is supposed to strengthen IGF or to contribute towards strengthening IGF.  So, again, that is something positive.

 Though all of us, we acknowledge that there is a lack of information about where this initiative is going.  So, therefore, it is always good to be present and be able to influence whatever decisions the council will be making.  If we are absent, we cannot influence in any way.

 So, therefore, the agreement or consensus that we have reached here that we need to collaborate and be present is already a good decision.  

 Juan Alfonso.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  I can agree with that, but the precondition has to be retired -- removed from the Web site, from the understanding that collaboration cannot have precondition because that is not collaboration.  

 It is interesting.  Virat mentioned all the details.  It sounds like there is a fraternity thing, that you have to be a member of that.  That is not collaboration.  That is not open.  That's not global.  That's not multistakeholder.  That's really -- I don't know.  It was really a bad idea.  

 And I think that they should retire that and then move on and maybe -- maybe it is useful.  I don't know.  But that has to be taken out before accepting anything because, otherwise, all the things -- it has even legal repercussions because IGF, it is very open, very wide.  It is the strength, diversity of opinions, and how can we join -- collaborate with something that is asking us with preconditions.  That's really out of the question.  That will have to be removed first before any other decision should be taken.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  I understand you are very passionate about this thing.  I have not finished yet what I wanted to say.

 And I'm trying to accommodate your concerns and concerns of everybody in this room.


 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.  My understanding is that there's not necessarily a consensus in the room.  And my recommendation at this stage would be that we absolutely keep the door open and the channels of communications open and ensure that we follow the developments of NETmundial Initiative.  

 And perhaps this group could reconsider the question of a liaison at its next meeting once there will be a feeling, a general feeling, that everything has been clarified, questions from the community addressed.  

 Again, I do not see the urgency since there is no more permanent seat.  And my recommendation would be that we keep the channels of communication open, but I do not hear that we have consensus to participate at this stage.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Yeah, because I haven't said that yet.

 What I'm saying, the consensus is that we need to engage.

 Now, we are invited to join the council, and here there is no consensus.  But there was a proposal that we may nominate somebody to liaise with the council until clarification is -- or more information is provided when the direction in which initiative will go will be clearer, and then we may reconsider our position.

 So the nomination of the liaison to the council seems to me might be the way forward by consensus by this group, with the understanding that that would not be the part -- I mean, the formal -- formally part of the council at this moment, maybe joining later, but being as a liaison.


 >>LEA KASPAR:  Thank you.  Your summary just addressed what I wanted to say, so I would like to add my support to that proposal which you just put forward.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  So now the question is who should be the liaison.  

 Juan Alfonso, do you have a proposal?

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  No.  I'm sorry, Chairman.  I'm sorry to differ with you.  We usually have the same view.

 But I think that it's even premature what you're proposing.  It's like, you know, we have in Spanish the saying, "You give a finger, then they take the hand," something like that.

 I think that we should give -- send a message, maybe through the Brazilians here, to the NETmundial Initiative organizers of these concerns about the invitation, about the preconditions, and then to see how is the -- what is the answer to this concern of ours.

 And after we receive the response to this concern, maybe we can take this step of having a liaison, a little liaison or a little, little liaison, before having a full-fledged council member.

 So I will suggest that we have to wait, we have to send the ball to their court and wait for their response.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  I understand, Juan Alfonso, that you have very strong feelings about the issue.

 Virat and Marilyn afterwards.

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Mr. Chairman, I wonder if there is a way for Chengetai, perhaps, to not be on the council but be available at the meetings so that he can report in to the MAG on what the improvements are.

 And if that is a workable solution, then it's not like he's -- he's not going -- he was -- 

 Certainly not on the coordination council, but if they're allowing observers or people --

 I don't know whether -- even this is not known, whether the coordination council's meetings will be opened or closed.  That's -- open.  Okay.  

 So if they are open meetings, then I suppose many people will attend.

 Then many of the MAG members can attend in their own right and nobody can stop that, as people attending a meeting but not on the coordination.

 All these issues arise when you join the coordination council.  It will be impossible for us to stop anybody in their individual capacity, including, I have to say, you, if they want to go attend a meeting.

 It's when you're invited and you're asked to join the coordination council when all of these sort of issues stem up.

 So if there is a way to be in that meeting with 40 other people, not on the coordination council, then I suppose it's open to anybody, just as it would be to the IGF secretariat to be in the meeting and take notes and keep the members informed, if that is a possibility.  I'm just finding a via media to keep the discussion over without accept a formal position.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you, Virat.


 >>MARILYN CADE:  Chair, I'm very disappointed to hear any conveyance that there is consensus in this room on this issue.

 I've written down every comment that has been made.  I see no consensus.  I see a number of concerns and legitimate questions.  

 Among them are the question raised about preconditions and the very valid questions that have been raised by Virat Bhatia about how it is possible to bind a group of advisors to the secretary-general of the United Nations on the planning of the program of the IGF to preconditions of this nature.

 This makes me very uncomfortable.

 I do not see a consensus.

 I think there are unanswered questions.  I think it's premature to be taking a solutions approach.  I think we can send questions.  I don't think it's fair to say those questions are going to Brazil, however.  I think those questions are going to the critter that is called "NMI," which is a composite critter.  And so I think it's fair for some of us who have concerns to ask, to have questions.

 I tend to agree with Juan that, you know, we are really expanding our role.  I understand, again, if these meetings are open, then everyone who wants to listen in can do so.  We can send questions.  And then we can take the time to consider what the answers are, and we can figure out really whether this is in the interest of the IGF.  That is what we are here to plan.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Fiona, please.

 >>FIONA ALEXANDER:  Yes.  Thank you, Janis.  

 I've listened very carefully to what everyone's said, and I appreciate all the concerns and the sourcing of all the concerns.  Especially those from national governments and governments have taken particular positions and it's very difficult to separate those.  Almost impossible in many cases.  Including, for me, I would think.

 But I do -- again, I just find it slightly a little bit ironic and bizarre and would sort of echo some of the concern Avri had made.

 We want to -- we want to sort of -- we want to move forward, we want to be progressive, we want to use technology, we want to plan an Internet Governance Forum, but then we want to fall back on process and we don't want to do something.  

 And my recollection is that over the years, the MAG chair and the special advisor, when Nitin was here -- and maybe Markus can elaborate -- did a variety of activities that involved outreach and participating in events and liaisoning with different things.  I remember seeing Markus at many meetings around the world.  And I don't remember ever those conversations coming to this group for discussion and agreement.

 Again, that being said, I do understand the sensitivity.  I think the idea of a permanent seat or a seat is problematic for many people, so would again support the proposal you put forward in terms of a liaison to understand what the process is about, to understand if and how it would impact the IGF.  Without someone there, it would be difficult to do that.  

 So again, I'm just a little -- I'm a little bit perplexed and I too am disappointed that when we want to do something that's forward-looking, we fall back on process points, and it's maybe perhaps appropriate, given the whole thing that we're in.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Avri?

 >>AVRI DORIA:  Thank you.  Yeah.  I want to reiterate what I said before, in that I definitely think it is necessary for us to be in attendance.

 I truly don't care what we call the role.  I truly don't.  I mean, call it a liaison, call it a member of council.  It's -- it's all a name.  It doesn't really matter.

 I think whether it's yourself as the chair or Chengetai as the secretariat, or both of you, attending, I don't think that matters either.

 What I think is critical is that we be there and that we be participating and that somebody be there to make sure that the IGF is properly represented within NMI discussions.

 Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Silvia?

 >>SILVIA BIDART:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 As a new MAG member, I would like to say that there is -- I don't think there's a consensus on this matter, up to now.

 I have followed all the conversations, opened my eyes, my ears to each comment, because I'm eager to learn.  I really would like to congratulate all what IGF have done in the past, MAG members -- actual past MAG members.  Really, you are shifting a lot of things about the rules of the game worldwide.

 That's why I would like to propose that we -- as we are -- the spirit is open until things are not clear enough, I don't think we should call this a consensus.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Juan Alfonso, we heard you already many times.  We know where you stand.

 >>JUAN FERNANDEZ:  Thank you, Chairman.

 I think that any kind of -- because, you know, I'm a very simple person.  I really -- maybe I don't understand the meaning of "liaison" or that initiative that have -- councillor, whatever.  I don't care.  Maybe they have a (indiscernible) inside.

 I am in favor of collaboration and maybe this -- of course there's two things here.  There's a procedural part that maybe I can be flexible there, as has been said, maybe the procedural part of the way an invitation is done.  

 But the second thing is that to collaborate, it really doesn't have to be without any conditions.  So any kind -- either a liaison or any participation, if it's done without taking that clause out, it's a recognition of that -- of that clause.

 I remember the analogy that I put with the martians or the Vatican.  That will be unacceptable for many here that -- I don't think that the whole house here is Roman Catholic.  

 And so I think that we -- we -- I am repeating.

 Personally, I think we should collaborate -- that is where outreach is -- with all the initiatives.  Even with this recent Chinese initiative as well.  With all the initiatives, we should collaborate.  And -- but without preconditions.  We don't have to -- to part with our belief and our way of doing and they don't have to part with them, but don't put conditions to any of both parts.  Collaborate in good faith.

 I know that it's another issue, the ideological issue of the -- or the intention if this takes the wind out of the IGF's sails or something like that, if it's competition or not collaborating, but that will be prejudging in the advance.

 Let's see what happens and it's like going to a party.  If the party goes sour, then you can always leave.

 Well, not in Hotel California, no, because you can never leave okay.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Peter?

 >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I -- I think -- Peter Dengate Thrush.  I think in general, my position is that it's usually better to talk than not to talk and it's usually better to respond to a well-intentioned invitation with a well-intentioned response.

 I disagree with Avri that -- though, that the appearances don't matter and people in the room are obviously very concerned about some of those.

 And perhaps the way to deal with that is to -- is to -- and we -- we need to get across those difficulties, that we do feel there's a difficulty about having to sign up to a set of principles, we do feel there's a difficulty in the legal structure of the MAG assuming responsibility in this role.

 My suggestion is the way we deal with that is we send an observer to the meeting to have those sort of conversations, because communication is better than not communicating, and as I say, responding by saying, "We see you're set up, we see that you're dedicated to improving the conditions of the MAG but we're not going join for this reasons," that seems to me to be a little bit artificial.  

 But there are sensitivities.  So we need to go, we need to explain those sensitivities.

 And there's also a sense that sending the chair is -- conveys material -- you know, conveys an impression that not everyone's happy with.

 Well, that's why we have a secretariat.  They're our staff.  They go and do these sorts of missions, just as somebody pointed out Markus used to do.  So my suggestion is that we ask the secretariat to act as an observer until such time as the MAG has resolved, with NMI, the difficulties and the sensitivities that people have raised.


 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  Though still I'm -- what I'm hearing, that -- 

 Sorry.  Cheryl.  Excuse me.  I --

 >>CHERYL MILLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 I couldn't have said it better than Peter.  I agree with his proposal and assessment.  I think keeping the lines of communication open is really important and I recognize that there are a lot of outstanding questions and that's to be expected.  This is something that's new, and so of course there are a lot of questions.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 But there are some sensitivities, as Peter mentioned, and so I think this would be a good compromise.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So I -- I think we're going down -- down the line as -- 

 So initially, Marilyn suggested that a liaison function could be established to keep this -- these lines open, and "liaison" has one meaning than "observer."

 Observer is not engaging.  Observer is sitting in the back row and taking notes.

 Liaison is engaging and can convey the message.

 And the message should be conveyed if the initiative goes in a totally wrong direction which would not support IGF, but rather sort of either compete with IGF or go against the interest of IGF.

 So I still seek sort of your understanding that we should consider sending -- or establishing liaison with the NMI initiative.  And this is what Marilyn suggested at the beginning.


 >>MARILYN CADE:  Thank you, Chair.

 Let me think openly with all of us about what we've heard.

 Certainly the role of a liaison is different than the role of an observer, but during the discussion, a number of very important questions have been asked that need to be answered, regardless of whether it is an observer or a liaison.

 The question of a precondition that involves what may be interpreted by some as an endorsement is a problem, I think.  

 And so we have questions.  I would like us to pursue sending a short list of questions, and start perhaps with the observer role with the idea that we can, if those questions are answered to the satisfaction of the -- the con- -- the concerns that have been raised about endorsement, overextending our role, the legal implications, the preconditions.  It is always good to engage and consult, but you don't have to go to every party that your neighbor gives in order to maintain a good relationship with your neighbor.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  So let -- 

 Fiona, please.

 >>FIONA ALEXANDER: Yeah.  Thank you.  

 I actually have a slightly different set of questions based on what I'm hearing and I understand the concerns about the precondition and what's on the Web site.

 But over the last couple days, I've heard various members of the Brazilian delegation, or members from Brazil, talk about the NETmundial output and using that and having that being a basis for certain parts of IGF.

 And when that was said, there was no concern about what was the output of NETmundial.  

 So there's some slight inconsistency here in terms of being okay with doing it as a part of the conversation of the IGF but not wanting it to be part of the conversation of the NETmundial Initiative.

 I agree with the condition -- or the question about preconditions and signing on, but I do sense some sort of inconsistencies in the conversation and it would be helpful to understand that, especially as we look at intersessional work and going forward on some of the things that have been suggested earlier in the last couple days.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Avri, you're asking for the floor?  No.

 So I think I will not prolong this discussion.

 What I see is that we are not in a position to take a decision on this question, unfortunately, to my big regret.

 As I always say, the absent is always wrong.  Those who are absent cannot influence anything.  And we will -- so unfortunately, we will be absent as a formal -- as a formal sort of member.

 Neither liaison.

 As it come to observer, since meeting is open, I see no reason -- I see no reason to appoint anybody as observer because everybody can go and observe and make own decisions.

 So I will convey that to the organizers of -- or promoters of NMI.  I will ask those questions as -- that transpired during our discussion here.

 And in case the explanations will -- that will be given will satisfy the MAG, we may come back to this question at a later stage at any time.

 So the MAG will not be formally represented.  The MAG will not formally liaise at this point in time.

 That said, I will ask the vice chairman of the MAG, the member of CGI -- members of CGI, and Ambassador Benedicto Fonseca to make sure that no decisions in NMI are made which would go against the interests of IGF.  Please.

 >>BENEDICTO FONSECA FILHO:  Thank you, Janis.

 I did not intervene, and I think other colleagues as well, because we want to have as much feedback as we can from the community.

 But one point I'd like to emphasize is that much of the concerns and points that have been raised have also been discussed within the Brazilian steering committee.

 And you may have noticed in the first day there was a statement coming from our part specifying what are the terms of reference that guide our participation, what is our understanding of the initiative, since the initiative itself is still being shaped.

 Tomorrow there will be this conference call.  I hope that some of those concerns that, again, are also in some sort ours as well can be addressed in the process of shaping the initiative, and certainly it will be in our best interest -- and not only because we are hosting the IGF but because we consider this is the right way to go to make sure that IGF interests will not in any way be harmed.

 So one thing that I maybe would like to propose is that in light of the discussions we will have not only tomorrow but maybe in another forum that can be agreed upon, that might address some of the concerns, if there could be some kind, let's say -- 

 I'm concerned because we are not meeting again until next May, but if there could be any possibility to come back on this, I don't know, by some platform and resume this discussion in the light of points that are being made.

 I think we are moving very rapidly in so many areas that I think maybe we have to devise some innovative ways of discussing amongst ourselves and making some decisions if it is possible.  

 I would be pained if we could lose some opportunity.  But in the end we could agree that some consensus has been addressed, that some issues have been overcome, and in the absence of another physical meeting that discussion could not be resumed.  So this is the point I'd like to make.

 And, again, to emphasize that we have tabled the -- the Brazilian steering committee has tabled this statement exactly to specify from its own point of view, perspective, what is the understanding with regard to the initiative and demonstrate this is something that's being constructed.  And I think the input from this meeting will be very important not only for us but for the organizers as well, the proposal.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.

 And, of course, everything as I said before relates to the cooperation of our being members of the council.  So that does not relate in any way in any other forms of cooperation because we did not discuss that.

 I see Internet Society, Constance.

 >>CONSTANCE BOMMELAER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.  And in response to the Ambassador's last comment, I would like to welcome this invitation to absolutely keep the channel of communications open.  

 We will meet physically in a few months, but we will have also a series of Webinars.  And I would suggest that since between now and our next Webinar, there will be more information, probably more clarification, maybe we address again in only a few weeks the question of how we want to articulate whether it's an observer, a liaison, something else.

 I think it would be very timely to have this discussion soon, in a few weeks from now.  So absolutely, I think we need to keep this channel of communication very open.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you for a little opening.  And I think that might be done sometime 18, 19 December, or 21, 22 December, which are the time when we could have a conference call if, if conditions will be right, if clarification will be given, if our online conversation will indicate that there might be some change in the position of MAG members feeling very strongly about it.

 So I think that this is a conclusion of this point of the agenda.  

 And let us move very briefly to any other business, general updates I believe that might be of interest of MAG members.  Slobodan, any other business?

 >>SLOBODAN MARKOVIC:  Thank you, Janis.  I just wanted to make a very short note from my perspective of a new MAG member.  Chengetai yesterday sent an email to the mailing list with respect to useful documents.  And, unfortunately, it came a bit too late for us to go through them carefully and use them in an informed debate at our session these days.

 Now, as a new MAG member, I'm learning as I'm going on how the IGF event organization and MAG works are structured.

 I have participated at a few IGFs in the past as a participant, but from that perspective, it is very difficult to perceive the totality of the process and especially internal workings behind it.

 We also went through a virtual orientation session last week, and that was useful to some extent.  It gave us some general guidelines in how to go about our work.  But that session could not prepare us for the kind of topics and discussions we had on our agenda these days.

 The Web site also is not very helpful in this regard.  Some documents are easy to find such as the terms of reference.  But some are buried deep inside the site.  Among such documents are, for example, outline of session formats or format descriptions which I found through search engines in order to better understand, for example, what the flash session precisely means or how a panel or a workshop or roundtable are defined in the IGF context.

 So to conclude, I think it would be very useful to compile a kind of a starter kit/orientation manual/key documents pack for the future MAG members.  

 And also useful I think would be to think of attaching links to relevant background documents right next to each agenda item, at least in the electronic documents in order to have better informed work sessions.  And I think that both the incoming and the existing MAG members would benefit from such a practice.

 And to finish on a constructive note, of course, I'm volunteering to participate in such endeavor if all of the undersecretariat concurs.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much, Slobodan.  

 That sounds like the task of the person who drowns as to learn how to swim.  I was trying to translate one of the proverbs we had in Latin.

 So the question is we have ten minutes and should we listen to an update by secretariat or would you want me to try to summarize and repeat what the decisions were made?  And then the secretariat would brief us through maybe email or something, something like that.  Virat?

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  I just wanted to inform the house that we put together the list of all the inputs that were received since last night on the themes, the subthemes, and the best practice forums in a compendium along with who has supported what so when we go for public consultation, whatever has happened in this room since last night, all the emails are now together.

 I just want to caution it is based on just reading of the emails.  So if somebody finds that they are represented in the wrong place or not represented, they should indicate it to the secretariat so they can correct it.

 But for starts, we already have some 70, 80 recommendations on these three issues.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Benedicto, good luck.

 Silvia, please.

 >>SILVIA BIDART:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having the capability of reading the thoughts, especially mine.  I was just wondering if we were having some kind of summary of the main decisions.  Thank you.


 >>FIONA ALEXANDER:  Yes, thank you, Janis.  Before we get to the summary, I would just like to sort of get some clarification and reiterate the idea that whatever we do throughout this entire step of the process going into November, there's going to be some kind of mechanism for public consultation and get that as a principle agreed.  

 And I would like to understand what the best mechanisms for that is going to be, assuming it is agreed.  Is it going to be posting on the Web site?  Is it going to be other things?  Or are we going to discuss that at some point?

 I would like to sort of reiterate as folks start these working groups and the planning for these working groups and work backwards from deadlines the need to factor in online consultations in some fashion in the planning.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  I think until now, MAG always has been working in a fairly transparent way.  Every transcript is available on the Web site.  We are asking for inputs through different means.  So certainly we will continue the same way.  If we need specifically to do consultations on every step we do, no problem with that.  That may slightly limit ourselves because that will take away time from our own actions.  But if that's needed, happy to do that.

 Peter, please.

 >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Peter Dengate Thrush.  If you're able to give us an oral summary of key decisions now, that would be helpful.  But most of us have sat through those decisions.  I personally would rather use the time to get further fresh information and have other discussions that we haven't had a chance to.  

 And I think Fiona has raised a very interesting one, for example, which has a matter of principle behind it about disclosure and public input and a lot of practical requirements as to how we implement any such outcome.

 What I would ask for, though, is within a day or so to have a written summary.  I'm not sure what the MAG practice in the past has been, but at the very least a list of action items with responsibilities and deadlines in the usual way would be -- to me would be the most useful output than a further discussion today.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Virat.

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Mr. Chairman, the point that has been raised by Fiona is an important one and we should clarify that because I think there are members in this group who believe that public consultation has occurred, including on the issue of theme since the last three months.  But there are other members who believe it is not yet occurred.  

 So if there is -- if the public consultation doesn't mean putting it on the Web, receiving inputs, putting it in the synthesis paper, discussing it and if it's different -- and it could be, and I could be wrong, and maybe others are, too -- then we should clearly understand what is being recommended.

 The second point I would request is that please, please keep in mind we will not have the luxury of 11 months every year.  So if you want to go into this public consultation, please keep in mind the time period that it takes to put that information out to receive the inputs and then to start putting it together.

 Also, please keep in mind that we will have to make decisions based on public consultation inputs online.  And we haven't done very well as a group in making decisions on several issues in the last three days even face-to-face.

 So first we must reach a common definition of public consultation.  And, secondly, we must weigh against the time which is available, which is on the average seven to eight months and not 11 months that we have this year.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Fiona, would you like to maybe clarify what's your understanding of the consultations.

 >>FIONA ALEXANDER:  Sure.  I'd be happy to.  I think the idea that you do a consultation once and it is done is probably not a good work method.

 I think there's certain standards and expectations for different institutions and organizations and groups like this involved in Internet governance.  And we require those of other institutions.  And I think that the same things we require of other groups and processes we need to figure out how to do here and to do it a bit better.

 So my suggestion was that if we're going to create these working groups and people are going to be leading these working groups, the first thing the working group chairpeople have to do is map out a work plan, and that should include a form of getting further input.  

 So while there has been input coming into this meeting on themes, there have been additional themes that were suggested over the course of those three days and if there's going to be a way to aggregate that or compile that and make a decision, there should be an opportunity for those not physically present or those not participating in the process to weigh in.

 Again, it is sort of a mapping and a planning exercise.  But the idea that you get comment once and you're done getting comment doesn't seem consistent with the general sort of belief in the system of Internet governance and the principles that guide it, as I understand them.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  So thank you.  We have remaining four minutes.  We need to be cognizant of the time.

 Virat, please, and then Avri.

 >>VIRAT BHATIA:  Mr. Chairman, I want to present everybody who is not in the room had three months.  The secretariat might want to clarify when was that notice was put out.  I don't have the exact date, but it is at least three months old.  And the inputs that have been received have been online for a month and a half.

 So I'm -- and we've already said the working group will do exactly the same.  

 So here's my request.  Since we're still saying "day and night" and not saying "it is evening and afternoon," if there is a different process, then please put it specifically to the working groups because we do not wish to be accused of being opaque after having gone through all this process because I firmly believe what we have in place is as transparent as it gets.  

 But we are certainly open to improvements, but we should have specific recommendations on what they would like us to change.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Avri will be last and then I will maybe make a suggestion and still do one conclusion saying good-bye to all of you.

 Avri, please.

 >>AVRI DORIA:  Thank you.  I think that as a MAG, we have to be accountable to the IGF community, which means we get some input.  We do some work.  We show our work and we get comment on that work.

 So we came up -- you know, we got some input from them and now we talked about it for three days.  We added a whole bunch more.  Now we go back and we say, "Okay, how did we do?  Did we miss anything?  Do we add anything?"  It doesn't need to be a three-month consultation.  It is something that can be done in three weeks.

 But accountability, the MAG is something that has to be accountable, which means we have to keep going back to our community and say, "Did we get this right?"  And that's, I think, what we're saying about not just transparency but accountability.  Perhaps we need a session at the IGF to figure out what IGF accountability is.  But it has to be accountable to the community.  Thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Of course, we are.  And actually since many of the MAG members were nominated through the community consultations and Secretary-General took that into account, of course, we are accountable at least to our own communities.  But that's obvious.

 Again, I don't think we have in mind to work behind the closed doors.  Everything we do is online in realtime.  The transcripts will be published, maybe except the joke about the State Department that I will ask to take out for political reasons.  Again, I'm trying to joke.

 [ Laughter ]

 But my suggestion -- and, again, that stems from the experience I have many years working in multilateral diplomacy is to open working groups to everybody who wants to follow the work and contribute to work, and then that resolves those questions.

 Of course, we need to communicate as well.  And since I do not have time to do formal closing and list everything we agreed upon, I will try to sum up in writing.  Of course, that is very painful for me, as you know.  But I will try to do my best.

 So my advice would be to all coordinators, when you start planning, please put every meeting -- I mean, every working group is open-ended, and all those who are interested can join at any time, contribute, and so on.

 Of course, that does not exclude putting the results, time to time for public observations, comments, and getting feedback from the others who cannot participate on daily basis.

 So 30 seconds for ICC and 30 seconds for Lynn and that will bring us to the end of the meeting.

 >>ICC-BASIS:  I just wanted to support the secretariat and the MAG so far in terms of consultation process.  ICC-BASIS has a lot of experience going through consultations, both with our members at a global level and at a national level.  And I think that it's important that each of us around the table working on the IGF collectively representing different stakeholders and communities recognize that we each have a responsibility to bring a consultative perspective and that is an important part of the process.  It might not eliminate every other step where we might want to check with the wider public such as posting things on the Web site as Chengetai does.  

 But I think each person who is representing a group should recognize that that consultation process also comes at an individual organizational level.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you.  Lynn.

 >>LYNN ST. AMOUR:  Thank you, Chair.  I won't abuse the last few seconds by thanking you and first-time MAG member comments and all that, but it will be on the mail list.  

 I just wanted to point out that a number of us have talked and said it might be a good idea to try and get an informal dinner together for any of the MAG members that are actually still here.  

 The Internet Society very helpfully found a reservation for all of us.  It is in your mail accounts.  It is the Cafe du Centre in the Place du Molard at 7:00, 7:15 for anybody that is available.  

 As I said in my note, this would be a good opportunity for us to do some cross-community building internally to the MAG.  

 So thank you.

 >>CHAIR KARKLINS:  Thank you very much.  Let me close by thanking all of you for engagement and hard work during these three days.  It is always difficult to start the new year.  But I think we have progressed maybe not as far as I would like to see us progressing but still we made significant progress and will continue that in upcoming weeks until we reach the point of sending out calls for proposals.

 I would like also to -- on our behalf to thank our interpreters.  Thank you very much for helping us and doing --

 [ Applause ] -- more, even more than you are normally supposed to do helping us with the Spanish translation.

 Also, I would like to thank also scribes who diligently followed our discussions and transcribed everything we said, including jokes.  Thank you very much.

 [ Applause ]

 So next engagement might be -- not necessarily, might be in mid December when -- if any development will happen with the NETmundial Initiative.  Otherwise, we will be proceeding to the work we agreed to do, and I will communicate -- remind what those decisions were.  

 And certainly we will meet in mid January to conclude our conversation about themes and subthemes and work stream that will be managed by Benedicto.

 Thank you very much, Benedicto, for helping me throughout the process and looking forward to working and preparing the IGF meeting in Brazil.  Thank you very much.

 And safe travels back home.

 [ Applause ]




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