IGF 2021 – Day 1 – HIGH LEVEL EXCHANGE PANEL: Governance models to promote inclusive and diverse business development – what stands in the way?

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF virtual intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.



>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Good afternoon.  Hello, everybody.  I think we will have to wait for the other panelists.  We have to make the debate richer.

We have here just Mr. Mark Williams, Mr. John Frank, we are waiting for all the ‑‑ for another panelist.  We have the representer of the IGF, then we'll make a presentation and we have the South African Minister of Communication and technologies, Anriette Esterhuysen is not here as of yet.

So we have to talk a lot with Renata Avila about education and rights.  We are waiting for Mr. Andre Xuereb from Malta, a professor of the University of Malta of quantum physics.

We have also Mr. Goran Marby, representing the corporation for assigned name, ICAN, Mr. Goran Marby.

We have ‑‑ still waiting for Mario Cimoli, presenting the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean.

We have just ‑‑ we will wait ‑‑ we will wait for the other panelists and we'll talk a lot about Internet Governance and how governance is dealing with when we talk about digital economy which is not an equal access for all the people.  You know that.

We have many economists dealing with our debate.  I think the economic aspect will be the core of our statements maybe.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Sorry to interrupt you.  It is Anriette Esterhuysen here.  You have two panelists that are here in the room.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Very nice.  Okay.  Thank you.  Now I'm seeing ‑‑ I was waiting.  Okay.  Okay.  On site.  You have them on site.  Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you.


>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: We have Madam Anriette Esterhuysen and ‑‑

>> ANDRE XUEREB: Andre Xuereb.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Very welcome.  Thank you.

And then we have ‑‑ from Malta.  Okay.

We have just one panelist from the Minister of Communication of South Africa I thought she was scheduled in the panel.  If you want us to begin or wait for someone or people online, we have Goran Marby, John Frank, you have Mark Williams from the World Bank and Renata Avila, a lawyer, international lawyer in Human Rights, and Mr. Frank, an economist.

We're waiting for one guest I think, one panelist or go ahead.

>> ANDRE XUEREB: I think we should go ahead.  Nobody is joining us here.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: They sent me the program.

Hi, everybody.  I welcome to all of our panelists.

I will speak French because we have interpreters in the room. 

I would like to welcome all of our panel members.  We will be talking about Internet Governance, topics will be related to current events, we have high‑level experts amongst us, two of them are here on site in Katowice, Madam Anriette Esterhuysen from South Africa and Mr. Xuereb presenting Malta.  He represents the University of Malta.

Before I introduce all of the panel members I would like to highlight the main topics of the discussion.  We'll be talking about Internet Governance and we'll be talking about potential problems.

We'll talk about our Internet world.

The digital economy, ladies and gentlemen, it is very relevant topic today.  Dear panelists will live in a global world and a digital world.  Digital technologies are used in all of the industry sectors and that's why we're even talking about the fourth industrial revolution which is happening before our very eyes.  Digitalization is in full swing and we are dependent on the Internet right now.  Half of all jobs worldwide will change due to the effects of digital technologies.  No one can escape that.  We will all need to use the Internet. 

The COVID‑19 pandemic highlighted the importance of the Internet in our lives.  We should try to enjoy working remotely.  We need to try to enjoy it because it is here to stay.  I would like to emphasize that the world of work is changing and so we need to think about what skills we will need in the 21st Century, what skills people must have.

The digital changes that are upon us are quite spectacular and I hope that our panel members will introduce themselves and then they will refer to the topic of equal access to the Internet, how do we ensure that no one is left behind?  We know that governments are mostly responsible for the quality of education because education is a tool which allows us to ensure that young people have access to knowledge.  We all live in a digital economy which is based on knowledge and I'm not only talking about educating the little ones, children and young people, it is also about life‑long learning.  We should all try to enjoy digital technologies because the way we work is going to change.  It will be affected by artificial intelligence.  It will be affected by the industrial revolution.  Digitalization is a word that is known to everyone, telecommuting, cybersecurity, these are terms that are part of our lives.  We live in a Digital World, all of us, experts, economists, and everyone else.  We have economists here, we have legal experts including Renata in the room so we are facing a huge revolution, and we believe that the future of work is changing and many companies have managed to weather the storm mainly during ‑‑ mainly due to the Internet.  Despite the economic crisis and lockdown, many companies have grown and developed based on the economy and based on the digital world.  We cannot talk about digitization without equal ‑‑ without talking about equal access to the Internet which is a wonderful source of knowledge.  We want and we need to make sure that everyone can have access to the Internet and it is the governments that need to make sure that everyone can access the Internet.  We need to make sure that young people everywhere can access the Internet.  We all know that young people are often dependent on the Internet but we want to make sure that everyone is free to act as a transparent source of knowledge, which is the Internet.

All the stakeholders of information and of technology will need to develop a better world so let's start with digitization and we'll talk about or relevant aspects.

I'm sorry for taking up too much of your time, but I think it is time to introduce our experts and panel members.  We have panel members representing the world of economics, we have lawyers, we have a physicist and an expert in international law.  We have major players of the digital world. 

It is my great pleasure to introduce our panel members:  I would like to start with Anriette Esterhuysen who is on site.

Can we please ask the technical team to make sure that our panelists can be visible on the screen.

Next, we will hear from a representative of the IGF Advisory Group that brings together representatives of various stakeholder groups. 

We will hear from experts working on the role of Internet and Internet access.

We will also hear from Renata Avila who is joining us online.  Renata Avila who is the CEO of Open Knowledge Foundation.  She is an expert in digital Human Rights.  She's a lawyer specializing in Human Rights.  She is interested in ensuring transparent access to information for decision makers in order to make the world of the Internet safe.

Can you hear us.

Mr. Goran Marby is also here on site, he's the CEO of ICANN.  Are you there, sir?

>> GORAN MARBY: I'm here.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: He's joining us online.  He's not on site.  He's online with us.

We're happy to have you with us, sorry to speak in French, it is scheduled for just speaking French, if I knew it, I would have prepared my presentation in English.  I think you don't mind for that.  You can make your intervention in English and we'll translate.

Mr. Goran Marby represents ICANN, we will be discussing topics including domain names and artificial intelligence related to automatic access to the Internet.  Goran, you worked in the Internet sector for 20 years.  You are also head of the Swedish Committee for communication.  Hello.

>> GORAN MARBY: Hello.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Mr. John Frank is also with us, he's the Vice President for UN affairs at Microsoft based in Brussels.  I don't want to advertise Microsoft here, but let me tell you that Microsoft is very much present in the world of technology.  Microsoft provides interesting remote working solutions which are amongst the most fundamental tools that we require when we talk about using the Internet on an everyday basis.

Mr. Frank, we're delighted to have you here.

>> JOHN FRANK: It is very good to be here.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you.

There is a slight delay but hopefully everyone is following us, everyone is with us.

We have two panelists here on site and four panelists online.

Let me turn to Mr. Mark Williams, the practice manager at digital development global practice of the World Bank.  You are an analyst and you're following closely everything that's going on in the digital world.  You are an expert in digital development.  You have 20 years of experience in the world of economics.  You were involved in work that concerned the development of regulations.

Now let us move to the gist of the session.  I didn't want to take up too much of your time, but I want to highlight the debate that will concern the digital economy as diversification and an inclusive version of the world of Internet.  Of course we want to make the Internet as democratic as possible, we want to ensure fair access to the Internet for everyone so that we can all access the wealth of knowledge that is available online.  We want everybody to be able to take advantage of educational services based online.

First let me hand over to the first panelist, Renata.

Renata will talk to us about legal and digital rights, and then I'll hand over to other speakers and I will encourage you to interact.  We want this discussion to be as interactive as possible.  I think digital rights is amongst the most important aspects of the digital economy.

The first question is the following:  How do we ensure that no one is left behind in the emerging digital economy?  You are an expert in digital rights, so how to ensure no one is left behind especially the emerging countries and markets.

>> RENATA AVILA: Dear high‑level panel, dear, Samira, I will start with a provocation basically: 

Over the last 20 years we have focused on inclusion and access from a very paternalistic way I think.  Something that we have neglected is to unlock the creative power of everyone.  As a result, we have today all the power ‑‑ all the technological power concentrated in few companies, concentrated in few people basically creating the technology that everybody is using.  That is not inclusive.  And that is a super centralized, super homogenous way of creating technology is creating a lot of problems beyond the inclusion problems. 

My proposal, and the effort we need to be very, you know, understanding that it will not be a quick fix, it is not something that will happen overnight.  It is a necessary investment, it is not only a law‑making sphere but it is ‑‑ we have to open the wallet, we have to open the pocket to invest in the following:

We need to invest in equal access to creation.  We need to invest in equal access and participation in the creation of the industries of the future.  Basically I have experienced it myself, you know, I consider myself a very privileged women, even if I come from the Global South.  The frustration of not being able to for example provide services locally even if you have all the skills, even if you have the specific ideas on how to solve the problem that technology is intending to solve.  What happens is basically that we leave everything to the market and the market is distorted at the moment.  The market has very powerful players that can, you know, offer the cheapest price, often for many countries, they offer the technological infrastructure for free and there's the mall companies, the small groups of technology and creationists, they're struggling, trying to serve the people, the people that they have closer to them, they're left out.  They cannot compete on price, but price is the least inclusive criteria to choose the technologies that specifically the public sector is going to use.

Similarly, when we look at education and the way that we're educating the kids of tomorrow is basically we're advocating where all of the curriculum is passive curriculum instead of okay, there is progress in safety and security, but nothing in creation.  Basically we offer limited number, limited number of tools that they need to learn how to use, but they're not learning, they're not gaining the skills to imagine different tools or to imagine or to be critical about the technology that they're using.  They're sitting in front of the computer all the time, and yet that computer that they have in front of them is not enabling creation.  If they create, they create in closed platforms that take all the products of the creation for them.

Opening opportunities from the very early age, from the local, from the local, for people to be participants in making digital, in making this digital culture, it is not only going to help diversity, it will also help the environment, it will also serve people better because if you have the people that you are intending to serve with whatever technology solution that you're developing, whatever business you're doing, if they're so far from you, if they're so removed from you, you don't see them.  If you don't see them ‑‑

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: They're invisible.

You each have 2 minutes.

Thank you very much.

I notice that your statement is perfect.  We're going to ask the same question, you say, Mrs. Renata says...(no translation.)

This is a follow‑up to the same question.

>> JOHN FRANK: Technology is such an important part of the economy, our daily lives, that it is important to ask questions about does the technology that we're using and creating reflect the values of our society and ourselves personally. 

Governments need to ensure as regulators that there is appropriate regulation so that technology does match the technology of society and we can feel comfortable about it.  The range of technology is expanding and huge.  There are so many aspects.  We'll go ‑‑ the global economy will go from 5% to 10% of the Internet Protocol sector, a huge expansion of technology and our global economy.

Not only that, but every aspect of our lives is having more technology infused into it.  So you referred, Samira, to the fourth industrial revolution.  Industry is certainly being transformed.  You know, but non‑industrial aspects of the economy are also being transformed whether it is agriculture, life sciences or education and government services.  We're seeing this transformation and it is important that we know that the values that we set out are reflected.  Certainly with artificial intelligence as an example we have had lots of good discussions about what are the principles to ensure that artificial intelligence is being used in ways we feel good about and comfortable about.  I think that process can be broadly repeated.

I do think it is important though to think about how we can use government regulation to increase access to the Internet, following up on, you know, the Secretary‑General's roadmap for digital inclusion we have to find ways to connect more people.  I think the past two years have demonstrated clearly to everybody that it is so essential to have more connections.  The number of people being connected is increasing, but I don't think we're doing it fast enough or that the quality and intensity of the usage is good enough.  I think we need a broader framework when we think about connectivity projects focus on people and put people at the centre and say are we thinking about the affordability of access and devices from the outset.  Are we thinking about the digital skills needed?  Are we thinking about the government services, education, healthcare, et cetera, that we're going to provide with these new services?  Do we have a Human Rights framework to ensure that it is used to enhance humans' capabilities and not suppress them?  I think we need a broader framework to go forward.

Governments need to make sure they're opening up frequency, you know, the Spectrum allocation is important, that they look at their tax situation, and they look at ways how can we partner with private sector and NGOs to create more multistakeholder solutions that will bring connectivity to more people?

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you, Mr. John Frank. 

Right, so you believe that connectivity is a right, but some people still lack global connectivity because there are infrastructural deficiencies and that's could be resolved by national governments.

Anriette Esterhuysen, you represent IGF, I would like to ask you the same question.  How can we here on site, as I believe the debate is ongoing, so how can we make access to the Internet more democratic?  How can we ensure that everybody has access to the available digital tolls and service, how can we ensure that the younger generation has sufficient access to the Internet?  I'm asking the question of how.

Each panelist only has 2 minutes for their contributions.  So the question is how can we ensure that no one is left behind as part of the Digital Transformation process.  How do we ensure that the Digital Transformation is inclusive rather than exclusive?  How do we ensure that the digital tools are more inclusive or more democratic and how do we involve the national governments in the process?

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Anriette Esterhuysen here.  For the record.

I think we cannot address inclusion without confronting exclusion.  We have to acknowledge that the world is unequal and that the social and economic inequality lace at the root of digital inequality.  That does not mean that we cannot do a lot to confront the access divide but fundamentally, if we don't confront poverty, gender inequality, discrimination based on so many other basis, primarily on economic basis, we're not going to bridge that digital divide.

To respond to the topic of regulation, I think we ‑‑ I say this "we" in a royal sense, governments, businesses, we need to remember that the role of regulation is first and foremost to enable, not control.  To approach it from enabling access, enabling innovation, enabling diversity of business models.  I think that's very important.  I think when we talk about the big Internet companies, which are a real concern, let's remember that they are not the Internet and that regulating in a pro-competitive way, regulating so that markets are open and accessible and does not involve regulating the Internet, it involves regulating markets.  Let's remember that. 

I think the Internet is the Internet.  It is public, it should be a common good and governed as such.  That does not mean that we do not need to look at fair taxation and pro-competitive policy and regulation. 

That's my very short intervention.  I think ultimately I do want to emphasize that much as we can work as a global Internet community to address the digital divide the underlying divide of social and economic inequality is ‑‑ should be our overall goal.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you.

Very interesting, your other aspect you are trying to develop.  When you talk about regulation, just to be in the same idea, we have to redefine the Internet.  We need to redefine the manner in which data is circulated and prosed and we have to regulate how to look at the data circulation and processing.  Speaking of global marketization.  Because of the COVID‑19 pandemic, what we have noticed is that like it or not, we are already in the post‑globalization era.

Market‑based economy as we have noticed makes equal access to the Internet difficult.  There are still countries that struggle with poverty.  There are important inequalities between men and women.  There are inequalities in terms of access to education and digital services.  They all stem from the fundamental inequalities that effect the world.

Before we move on to the legislative issue, I would like to give the floor over to Mr. Mark Williams from the World Bank.

The question is to summarize:  Would you agree that we live in a post globalization era?  Should we redefine our approach to sharing information to the shared access to education and knowledge?

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: If you can just ‑‑ when you're speaking in French, slow down a little bit.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Okay.  Okay.

My question, the question to Mr. Mark Williams, it is as follows:  Should we now redefine our purpose?

>> MARK WILLIAMS: I heard your question before.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Well, we have been observing an economic slowdown, but also market economy has a number of limitations as we have observed during the COVID‑19 pandemic.  The COVID‑19 pandemic highlighted important structural inequalities that also affect the education system and this is my question to Mr. Mark Williams, representing the World Bank.

I would also like the other panelists to refer to that later on.

>> MARK WILLIAMS: So this question about inequality in the structural inequalities that have been demonstrated by the COVID pandemic, I think we need to look at two sides of this.

First side, the pandemic demonstrated the clear power of digital in terms of service delivery and the ability to continue functioning within economy and in order to continue to receive public services like education.  That's on one hand.

On the other hand, it also created the complete shift to one line, creating clear visibility for the problems where people don't have access to the services or access to online. 

On one hand, it created opportunities, but it also has created new forms of exclusion, and I think that's highlighted the importance of an inclusive access to the Internet.  And from the World Bank's perspective, we look at this from an ecosystem point of view.  It is not ‑‑ it is not sufficient to look at just one particular aspect.  Several people, my fellow panelists mentioned individual aspects of the digital inclusion challenge.  We need to take a holistic view of it. 

Starting at the bottom, we have the foundations around infrastructure, devices, ability to use and access the Internet via the devices.  Then also, availability of services put online, accessible, you know, providing access to the services in languages and in a format which people can readily use and then complementary, digital systems like digital ID, giving people secure access to those public services and private services as well where it is integrated into the private sector.  Also, digital skills and software is like that, all of those need to be taken together, dressed together if you're going to create holistic access to avoid the exclusion of significant sections of the population of developing countries.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you, Mr. Mark Williams.

Well, we need to speed up.

These legislative aspects are very important.  I would like to ask Mr. Goran Marby to take over now.  Could you elaborate on the benefits of digital services and also the post globalization era?  Could you elaborate on that?

>> GORAN MARBY: In 2 minutes?  That's a challenge!

First of all, I would like to thank and congratulate the Polish government that despite the sort of hardship to set up this meeting we are learning a lot and we're very respectful of what you're doing.  From my perspective, a big thank you for setting this up and all of the participants that went there.

I'm actually going to change ‑‑ I'm going to comment on the subject a little bit differently by saying that if I have the title for this short speech, The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions. 

I represent a part of a technical community that actually makes the Internet possible for you.  For the last 25 years we have been able to make sure that the Internet is accessible in all parts of the world by providing the sort of identifiers that enablers a common operable Internet, everybody on the world can go on one network, reach a computer, mobile device, anything else around the world.  You never hear about us, you never think about us.  That's the whole intent.

Every time you go online, you actually meet us technically.  We provide that service with no charge to any of you.  We do that for the multistakeholder model built by Internet users for Internet users together with Internet users in all of our different settings.  We have been able to do this without regulation, without laws, nothing that's been to the success of the Internet.  It would be a Committee building that up, it wouldn't have worked.  We have no interest in the content, we don't put ourselves in politics.  I'm grateful for the thousands of people from hundreds of countries who engage so much in making sure that the Internet basically works.

Over the last couple of years we have seen a negativism about the Internet itself.  It is a sort of ‑‑ I woke up one day in 2016 and realized that a lot of the positive things about the Internet certainly, wasn't there.  There was much more about what's happening on top of the Internet, on platforms, on applications, other ones, but ‑‑ and that's drifted also about the discussion about the Internet.  Unfortunate today we see regulations, proposals for regulation, disconnecting users from the Internet, we're not talking about regimes, but we're talking about countries that are actually friends to the Internet that because they're looking into solutions on what happens on platforms, because of the legislation they actually enter a situation where you can't use the Internet at all.  I think that's scary.  I think that some of the discussions that's happening right now, you have to make a difference between the foundation and functionality of the Internet that makes it work, to make it exist in one big operational network or thousands of networks speaking the same language. 

What happens on top of the network, actually outside?  Every time you go into a platform, you actually do leave the Internet, you go into someone else's computer.  Sometimes we from the industry have caused problems with words we use, words like Cloud.  Cloud could actually be computering enabled garage.  There is no cyber, there is no information that drifts around in cyberspace.  All of that belongs to a computer somewhere in some jurisdiction.

I want to caution legislators and others to make a difference between the function of the Internet, the technical function of the Internet which we provide from ICANN together with our friends in other communities, the operators and IGF, where you have so many people who volunteer their time and effort on their free time to make sure that there is a functioning Internet for all of you.

When it comes to regulation, because of help me, help everybody else, to train, to help regulators and legislators around the world how the Internet actually works because Internet is like democracy, if we don't take care of it, if we don't ‑‑ if we don't remember how it is working there's a big chance we're losing it.  Right now I think we all have to join the fight to preserve the interoperability of the Internet.

Thank you.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you.

You're talking about a responsible question, which is Internet is like democracy, when you don't use it, you can't practice it so you can't talk about to make sure that users of Internet are equally, they have the equal access to infrastructure of Internet which ICANN plays a big, big, big role in this field.

We go on site with Mr. Andre Xuereb, from Malta, our physicist, Mr. Xuereb, to ask him the question that makes our debate linked.  People here are here talking about the challenge that we need to be tackled through regulation.  Perhaps in French I will ask my question.

Thanks to the new regulations, the question is, what sort of challenges can be addressed by implementing new regulations?  How to ensure that this debate is fruitful and gives Ryan Clough to new solutions?

>> ANDRE XUEREB: Thank you so much.  It has been very interesting, very, very interesting hearing my fellow panelists discuss.  At the outset I want to say that Renata scooped me!  The point I was going to start making is exactly the distinction between using and developing or creating.  It is worth reiterating, as I said in another panel, I have no shareholder, I'm in an open situation.  I'm allowed to say I don't know how to fully address this question.

Equal access is not just equal access to knowledge, new information, equal access to using that information.  I agree with Renata 100%, even more 100% if that's possible, that we also need equal access to development, equal access to creativity.  I think this is where perhaps regulation could help us step in the right direction.  Of course, it is not clear exactly how to do this.  You know, I could just take a couple of examples.

So one of the more contention things going on right now at the European level, we're working on ways in which we can create a new ultra-secure communication system and the European Commission is pushing for that to be in‑house so to speak, built by Europeans for Europeans within Europe.  One could say that this is going against the market dynamic, one could say many things, protectionism, so on.  Actually what it is going to do is together with the right funding mechanism, everything else, it is going to force European companies to be more creative and get the development back in Europe.  I don't have a silver bullet, of course.  There are ways in which small regulation, not over regulation as was alluded to earlier, small regulation can push market access in just the right way to make sure that everyone benefits and everyone can create.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you, Mr. Andre Xuereb.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: Can I add quickly to that?

I think I absolutely agree.  I think you see that in the access sector by regulators making it possible for small, local service providers to operate.  We see that in countries like Mexico, Brazil, that are licensing community networks to provide local access.  Often access that's more about just infrastructure, but building content and building skill.  I think we should not underestimate the power of this creative enabling regulation to be transformational.  I just feel often regulators are more concerned with control than enabling but the capacity to enable is immense.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you, Anriette.

You make a conclusion, the idea, why we're talking about the economy, the idea for me, as a representer of media, when I'm listening to your ‑‑ to our panelists, each one in this position has his sight of view of what will be Internet for people.  You are talking about Internet as something forbidden for other people and the access for others because they are rich, they can have all the tools to make their way of working, of access to knowledge.

It was said by Andre Xuereb that the problem is not access but the problem is more deeper than that.  Not equality to knowledge, but a new system of organization, a new system of regulation of Internet, that idea he stressed on.

My conclusion, if I can, and I give you then free speech if you want to, the vaccination campaign, we notice that ‑‑ we observe that the importance of digital revolution about making people to have the message on their mobile phone to go to the local level, to go to vaccinate themselves because the campaign of vaccination was unequal to for other people in some regions to know to get the information because they have no access automatically to digitization tools.  If you have to conclude, is it possible today without regulation of digital economy?  The question, you are free to answer if you want.

We noticed how important it was, the role of technology in the field of making technology to provide and make the society and the enterprise more efficient in the way that they could work in time of COVID‑19.  What does regulation mean for all of you?  Renata.

>> RENATA AVILA: Regulation, to me it means ‑‑ this is in this specific panel on unlocking public funds.  I think one of the things that were mentioned, it is very important, how procurement how redefining procurement roles could really unlock opportunities for female creator, local creator, specific languages that are not served on the Internet.  It can be really a tool for innovation, for inclusion, for local providers of education platforms, it opens possibilities and it is the duty of public sector to regulate in that sense.

For me, regulation, the right kind of regulation unlocks the power of public funding of our taxes to create the technology we want in an inclusive way.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: In an inclusive way.

Mr. Mark Williams. regulation for you, what does it mean?

>> MARK WILLIAMS: I think about the whole digital revolution globally. 

It is largely driven by regulatory reforms.  One exception to this I would say is the Internet aspect of the Internet that Goran mentioned earlier on.  If you look at the underlying infrastructure, the telecoms and the digital infrastructure, it has been regulation which has driven that which is unleashing private sector investments and competition.

I think we need ‑‑ the regulatory environment is changing rapidly with the evolution of digital services and so we need to make sure that regulation is focused on continuing that success in liberalizing markets and stimulating private investment and competition.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: We're talking about regulation of markets, making the markets ‑‑ you ask in a way, as has been said, that you have to call for the intervention of the government.  Government has to be more implicated in such process perhaps the idea.

Mr. John Frank, more implication of government and the process of making regulation of Internet or ‑‑

>> JOHN FRANK: I think very briefly, it is incredibly important that the governance of the Internet remain a multistakeholder project.  We don't want governments talking about Internet Governance over the Internet Governance without the private sector which owns and operates and has built the Internet.  That's the multistakeholder process.  It is incredibly important, which is why the IGF is incredibly important.

And so I think that we have to ensure that we keep the appropriate roles that private sector, public sector, Civil Society, working together, we're the ones who will shape and should continue to shape the Internet infrastructure that Goran talked about, recognizing the private sectors' role and the role of volunteers that have contribute sod much.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: So the role of private sector, we can underline the idea that the partnership, the partnerships between private sector and public sector, is it possible to regulate that, Mr. Goran?

>> GORAN MARBY: Could you repeat the question?  I didn't ‑‑ I have a little bit of a ‑‑

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: The idea of ‑‑ Mr. John Frank said the idea is to promote the role of private sector in the digital economy.  What's the sight of view on regulation of Internet, what's your statement?

>> GORAN MARBY: I think Mr. Frank talked about earlier, you have to make a difference between the actual Internet.

Let's do just an experiment.  Let's say that a region like Europe decides to build, you know, the infrastructure of the Internet because they think they have digital sovereignty but actually they have splintered the Internet and it will not be connected.  So what we are afraid of, by having local regulations and different technical solutions, you are splitting the Internet.  When I wrote in the chat, the Internet is the big equalizer.  If you get poor people online, you get the same access to information as the rich people have had over times and something magical just happens.  I think when you look at many of the proposals and legislation, it is about content, hate speech, illegal things, you know, I'm ‑‑ privacy.  I think that's a very important thing to do.  Please don't affect the underlying principles of the Internet, the ones you're using to make this call, the ability for people to connect.  There is a tendency right now, for instance, we're not done in our technical community, we're working hard to make sure that more people can access the Internet technically in their own language, their own script, people that don't read left to right, don't know what that is, it is a major project involving many parts of the technical community to make that happen.  We see potential legislations that can actually connect more businesses proposal, it could have an effect on them.  We in the Western world can continue to have our Internet sort of working without giving technical access to people who doesn't speak English or use Latin script or read left to right.

The one whose been the big enabler of making that happen is the multistakeholder model, which is not a fancy world for ‑‑ it is actually people from all over the world coming together in almost a peace project and many people have been involved.  The fact that these unsung heroes have been able to construct the system that's so safe so, secure, so stable that gives all of you the ability to use the Internet, it has been so successful.  I'm afraid of regulation that's meant to do something else, that hits the core of the Internet.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you, Mr. Goran.

Thank you, all of you.  We're going on site with Madam Anriette Esterhuysen and Mr. Andre Xuereb.

We're talking, there is no democracy without Internet, there is no global economy market without Internet since Internet is a big factor.  (No English translation).

Now I would like to ask about the governance model.  This is a question to Anriette.  I would like you to answer the question about the specific type of governance model that we would like to implement, how could we redefine that model since we're talking about cooperation between the private and the public sector?  We are highlighting the role of the Internet in our liberal economy.  So what type of governance would we want to see in order to redefine the social covenant that brings together all the citizens living in our countries, the HR politicians, so that we can together achieve more inclusive society.  How do we facilitate equal access to modern technology so that the modern technologies are not only reserved for the most wealthy people and countries.  How do we redefine that ecosystem and what companies will be responsible for taking a decision about this new model of democracy?  What is this new model like if it divides people into the rich and the poor?  A very brief answer, please.

I'm told we don't have much time.

>> ANRIETTE ESTERHUYSEN: A multistakeholder approach to Internet Governance, and Internet regulation or regulation that affects the Internet.

I think I would just add to that that Human Rights remains an important check and balance for how we approach regulation.  I think we also need to be able to learn from regulation and not assume that we have the solutions and interrogate whether regulatory intervention is achieving positive objectives or not and really be very cautious about overregulation.  I think maintaining a collaborative, learning‑oriented approach, that's the role of the IGF, it is a way for us to come together, as different stakeholders to challenge one another, but also to collaborate in using regulation and empowering and enabling ‑‑ in an enabling way rather than in a disabling way.

>> ANDRE XUEREB: And because we're basically being kicked off from the stage, I'm just going to add a couple of things.

I understand the point made by John I think, that local regulation leads to things like the splinter‑net, so on.  I will argue that complete lack of regulation could also do that in a sense that one could also have a situation where platforms grow so large that they, you know ‑‑ if I don't participate on that platform, that's it, I'm cutoff from participating or communicating with 1.2, 1.3, you know, 2 billion people.  So it is, you know, about regulation without overregulation and finding that middle road there allowing the smaller actors to compete with the larger actors, even in the absence of a functioning market which in many cases is what we have at the moment and that for me is the way to get underrepresented anyone on the Internet, whether it is people that's user, women entrepreneurs, whether it is people struggling with bias in AI data.  You know, it is everything!  Everything requires working against the current market dynamic requiring some regulation.  Without being overregulated, without ‑‑ without losing sight of the common goal I guess.

>> SAMIRA MAHDAOUI: Thank you very much all of the panelists.

The idea to conclude, because we have just 1 minute, thank you.  Sorry if I was a little bit long by going to French.  The idea, the conclusion, it is overregulation kills.

Thank you very much. 

We cannot have the Internet without democracy, overregulation is harmful, that not enough regulation is not positive either, the future of the Internet, blockchain, other technologies is looking rosy and positive.  Hopefully the world of the Internet will become more equitable and more inclusive so that we can all enjoy the benefits of democracy.

I would like to thank all of the participants of this panel discussion.

Thank you so very much for being with us.  I would like to wish you a fruitful proceeding.

Thank you very much.