IGF 2019 – Day 2 – Raum IV – WS #315 Youth in IG for Internet ethics & digital inclusion

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Fourteenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Berlin, Germany, from 25 to 29 November 2019. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 



>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Hello, everyone.  This is Jenna.  We are going to start in one minute.  So take your seat.  Thanks for joining here this morning.  Good morning, everyone.  I am from NetMission.Asia.  Thanks for joining this workshop.  This is workshop proposal that is organized by you from different regions including Asia‑Pacific and Europe apparently.  I can't see my PowerPoint right here.  So let me briefly introduce my background first.  I am the coordinator of this netmission academy which we provide online webinars to you in Asia‑Pacific.  It's a training session we provide online and an opportunities to use in Asia‑Pacific to empower them with capacity to contribute to the community and in the generations.  And somehow, we inspired to hold this workshop sessions and try to engage as many youth as possible not only from Asia, but all around the world to join this workshop and we discuss on youth and Internet Governance.

So before I move on to the actual workshop content, if you would like to get some more details or have a closer look to workshop proposal or policy questions, you can scan online or simply go to this URL link to get some more ideas.  I'm happy to see many young people who joined IGF submit here in the room and so many other faces from different continent and yeah.  I wish this would be really helpful for us to exchange our background and regardless ever countries.

So talking about the agenda today, I am introducing this workshop and then I will briefly talk about our panel and then I will give the time for them each of them 5 minutes and then talk about theird ins on policy questions and we will have like a Q&A remarks and, of course, more importantly to have like an open flow discussion and then we will have around 10 minutes to have summary because it is also important that we want to have a simple youth stated included in our workshop report and how we continue our work on youth engagement and Internet Governance.

So yeah.  I pretty much included our expectation.  Let's keep that.  Today as we all know that, youth are the fast growing demographic on the Internet and most of us are digital Natives and we are one of the biggest stakeholders in this digital era that we are the ones to help develop the future of a digital world together.  And even ‑‑ we have talked about digital inclusions in the past few days and in the workshops and IGF.  We know that it's really important that you have to be a part of this IG process.  But that's why we are here today to have this discussion and so ‑‑ okay.  Always press the wrong button on my laptop.  So basically we want to start this discussion based on this free discussion question.  So just first of all, I would like our speaker to identify the major factor they think leading to low engagement of our youth in Internet governance and how we can have better participation and how including youth from all different backgrounds can help contribute us to the development process of Internet ethics or policies and what they see our roles in this policy and practice creating cyber environment that's most positive digital citizenship and cyber wellness.  So today we have five different speakers from different backgrounds.  Civil Society, Technical Community from different continents.  So we have on my rapid side, Elliot Mann from Australia who is studying law.  We have jay JAEWON from Korea and the delegations of counsel in Europe.  And later on, I will let them briefly introduce themselves before they (?) on their side and thoughts on the questions.  So just to save our time, I will first lead to Elisabeth.

>> Elisabeth:  I am one of the youths.  So, um, I wanted to briefly give you an overview of what we did this year and what conclusions I can draw from it at this point.  It's only been a few days.  So we had this summit on Sunday and before that, we have gathered over 100 people and gendering and geographical regions and backgrounds.

In application, we then tried to identify those who are quite engaged in different topics of Internet Governance and get with them in webinars on focus on five different topics.  Those are the main themes of IGF this year.  So digital inclusion and governance and safety and security online.  All of this with youth focus.  Our fourth topic was youth participation and Internet Governance specifically.  I would try to identify best practices.  This is also what we're going to try in this workshop from my understanding and our fifth topic was the public discourse and information.  In those webinars, we really try to foster a discussion that didn't start at the beginning of the webinar and didn't end after the end of the webinar, but was more a process that stretched over several weeks.  When we get in to Berlin on Sunday, over 100 people from 35 countries as far as I'm aware we then got together on a BASIS of what we have been working on for quite some months.  We identified 11 key messages on different topics such as critical infrastructure, AI, public discourse, platform regulation, but also youth participation and a call to action to actually have young people in decision making roles and all levels of Internet governance.  When we talk about low engagement, I would like to point out that I feel there is always more interest in engagement and there is opportunity actually.  When we look especially here in Germany with the European (?), the big topic we had so many people protesting.  There was so much civil engagement especially by young people on a digital topic they felt very, you know, passionate about.  So I wouldn't say low engagement is the problem.  It is more so opportunities sometimes.  It is lack of recognition and sometimes lack of information and where to get engaged.  We're all doing different things.  I would love to hear what the others ursaying and what we have been focusing on is apart from creating an opportunity to actually participate is also trying to focus on capacity building and networking different people who are already engaged and who already do amazing stuff in respect itch countries and respective regions and create more so a stronger voice.  Even if the summit was like this global happening this year, I wouldn't boil it down to just one meeting, but rather fostering a more sustainable approach.  I am happy we're all here today.  I I don't know if I used up my 5 minutes already.  But this is my starting point and I would like to hear what my other panelists have to say.  Thank you.


>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you, Elis Beth for sharing.  Working on the webinars or IGF and gives you an opportunity will be one of the ways that we can actually maybe helping out the youth to narrow down the knowledge gap in joining this Internet Governance this course or the process by networking them with other people or building the capacity.

So the next speaker will be Jao from the youth department counsel of the year.  I would like Jao to continue the discussion.  Thank you.

>> Hi, everyone.  I'm Jao.  I come from a technical background.  I study intelligence systems.  I will be speaking on best practices from the in safe Internet centers network.  And I'm also part of the youth IGF movement chapter.  As Jenna mentioned, I'm here under the delegation of youth the counsel of Europe.

Going a little bit into the first question about low engagement, my thoughts were if in what kind of capacity do you want young people to be participating in, which means we can ask do we all ‑‑ do we really need to bring all the young people to the decision table?  Is that really possible?  Do we really want to do that?  Or as I've been doing so far with in safe, do we want to give young people the possibility, the method, the tools in their own environment, in their own way to participate?  And what does this exactly mean?  The Internet centers have a strategy to engage young people.  This means, for instance, through awareness sessions be aware of what they're feeling and what their need and how they can contribute to a better Internet.  For instance, and this comes really to listening.  Something that we sometimes forget when it comes to young people is that sometimes we don't provide the same kind of language.  If you think about the younger ones, most of the times they speak in their own way which sometimes they don't have direct translation to what could be a policy.  So in some sense, I do believe that reaching out to young people has different levels.  In Europe, we are not speaking when it comes to inclusion about access, but rather about a positive engagement.  And these as mentioned is about collecting from as many people as we can and here comes the youth participation, a thoughtful youth participation.  In my sense, in my experience, when I go to give an awareness session, the point is to capture all the specific examples, all the details, all the difficulties from young people and try to combine them and create good arguments.  Those good arguments are then ‑‑ can then be provided or presented here in this space, a space where we are now addressing the issues, now we are connecting those young people to the right stakeholders.  In some sense, the low engagement question is really about thinking if we are doing the discussion in the right place and what kind of discussion we are having in the different places.

How can the young people opinions be useful?  Well, I think that we would all agree since we're very young in this room that we have a lot of new perspectives.  We've been using internet constantly and trying to make it better.  So in a sense, different opinions raise better arguments and better arguments get better solutions.  I think that I'm pretty much closing.  I would just like to address the last part.  Thinking about the cyber wellness among young Internet users is very important.  Another example that I would like to raise, but I think Dominic, come is also in the room would be the best person to speak about is work counsel of Europe has been using to achieve this.  I don't know, Dominic, if I can give you one of my minutes so that you can ‑‑

>> Dominic:  Thank you very much for just pointing me out on the floor.  I think there's not a lot that I can say within the last 1 minute that maybe you have of your speaking time.  But when we were talking about engaging young people, I think there's a big question on what is the output that young people get when they are participating and often times, I personally have the impression that this output is not very big.  I think it must be very clear if we want to engage young people and if they want ‑‑ if we want them to be part of this discussion, you also need to some are they have a platform where their voice counts and they are just here in the room saying something that nobody cares about and to be fair, I'm slightly disappointed when I look around the room where we're in a youth session, but I see people typing on their laptops.  I am wondering if this discussion is fulfilling the conditions that it should.  So yeah.  This is a little bit of hints to the people if you want to have a fruitful discussion, I would like to invite you to take your laptops away and listen to the panelists.  Thank you very much.

>> thank you, Dominic, again.  I believe the two of you have raised argument point where we can have a more fulfilled discussion later in this workshop.  Do we actually really want to bring all young people on the decision table or where should we find a role in the Internet governance ecosystem where we can make contributions and to whatever you think that will be helpful for a Group of young people to get prepared for this digital (?) or just prepare for the discussion making process.  So beating up on that, our next speaker will be Elliot from Australia who studied law and computer science at the same time.  So let's see what is your opinion on that.  Thank you.

>> Elliot:  Thanks, genA. I am Elliot Mann from Australia.  I will start by saying how thankful I am (?) for giving me a place here and to (?) asia.

I think it is important to have a place to discuss youth and Internet governance.  You saw the demographic on the Internet and as they get more involved on the internet and appear more on the Internet, it's going to be more important that they get involved.  I do study in law school and work at CI and I also preface I am speaking here on my personal capacity.

I want to talk about three things.  First, I will talk briefly about the situation in Australia with getting youth involved.  I will then talk about maybe from a private sector perspective why it is important to get youth involved in Internet governance.  And then I will touch on the Internet ethics which I think is quite important.

12 months ago, all I knew about ICANN is they organize the DNS system.  That was purely out of my computer science classes.  Now I know a lot more and it's a lot more complicated about that.  There's a world I didn't know about 12 months ago.  In Australia and apologies for any Australians out there.  Do you want to talk about that, I would be happy to learn more.  There's a (?) of information and involvement around Internet Governance at a base level.  We have finally started having another national IGF this year, which is a fantastic program out in Sydney.  It sounds like a phenomenal event.  It was a lot more general.  And Internet Governance isn't really considered a big factor.  I think there's a couple of reasons why that is the case.  I think in a very base level where a lot of Internet Governance comes from in youth, a lot of it comes from the academic side of things.  I think there is some what of a lack of academics in Australia.  As a whole, I think Internet Governance in Australia and youth participation will grow.  I don't have much to talk about at the moment.  So from a private sector perspective, Internet governance is just a fantastic general policy making international policy sort of background.  Everything is how do you get a job at the end.  It is all you worry about.  If you're not doing something that leads to getting a job, you're wasting your time.  In my mind, Internet Governance is a fantastic way of merging law into your computer science for me, but I also think it should be seen by the Private Sector as a fantastic way of how people are learning about emerging technologies, how they are talking to people on international BASIS and emerging all that together.  So I think from the private sector, it is important to recognize that internet governance does give some very important skills to people.

And then finally on there Internet ethics point, I think this is something that is incredibly important.  As youth come the fastest growing demographic on the Internet T. is going to be important they realize they can use the Internet in different ways.  It can be used well and also be used poorly.  Internet ethics is about teaching people the line between what is right and wrong.  In my mind, personally, there's very little difference between Internet ethics and ethics in general.  In preparing for the ISOC IGF ambad doors program, we had discussions about proper ways to use the internet.  One of the points I made over and over, if you teach people ethic and critical thinking generally in their life, it will carry over to the Internet sector.  Now, that might not be a fantastic answer for people at the IGF talking exclusively, but I do think it will form a key part of the answer.  So to summarize in Australia, we're growing.  It's happening eventually.  For the private sector, there's key skills that are learned in Internet Governance that should be seen as a positive in the Private Sector when you're looking at youth.  When you are looking at hiring young people, internet governance is a plus.  And then finally with Internet ethics, we need to take a general approach just fromthics in general and that will carry over into the Internet sector.  Thanks.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you, Elliot, for sharing.  Thank you for sharing his insights to us e especially showing what the situation is in Australia and from a perspective as a student, how ‑‑ it is telling us we need to get ready for the (?) OH because we know a future there may be different jobs or if you need to get involved in the industry, you also need to have certain education or skill to continue your contributions and how you merge with what you have learned from school to the actual situation in reality.  So the next one will also be another youth which is from south Korea.  It's jay win ‑‑ JAOWON.

>> Before getting started, I want to introduce my background.  I am one of the committee members which is organized by key government alliance and this year, it was the first year that we initially started the youth session.  Before that even though we had (?), we didn't have any youth session before.  And this youth session has been initiated by two of the users that has been (?) which is Asia Pacific, internet governance a cademy organized by ICANN and (?) and some of the members from.asia and the other Internet related company went to mentor and guide us.  So for me, this year was really important year for us to getting started in the Korea to get to know about what is the Internet Governance.  For me, I think to include more youths, we have to let them change to get to know what is Internet Governance and then that's why we should more invest in human beings and people because besides this, I'm working (?) (?) development and we fund for people and the youths and some of the youths still do not really know about what is Internet Governance even though they want to participate and this is what made me feel like we need to kind of mentorship program or some guidance for the youths to get more involved in this program.  So even though they have participated for the fellowship for the initial start, many of them are getting confused about what are they doing here or what are the sections about and most of the people do not know what to do after the fellowship program.  So some of the members of this kind of fellowship (?) Asia‑Pacific (?) for IG, which is the first youth driven coalition for us to guided use around the Azia Pacific region so we have made the mentorship our working Group, the local mentors to get connected and let them know about how to apply for them and link themself into the Internet Governance even though they did not study in computer science or low background or policy since there would be (?) incrementals to talk in (?) language.  They can always feel more comfortable in getting to know about this issues when they were not that a ware of before ‑‑ aware of before.  In the end, those kind of promise I realize that it is first important to get include people and that's why we need more program for the mentorship and guidance.  For them to get more guidance and to have more sustainable kind of participation, we need to let them know why is this so important topic for them to know because as Elliot earlier mentioned, everyone is looking for the practical points of them to join in those kind of issues and program and we should be there to give them the proper region for them to get and join in this particular issues in their own way.  So that's what we're here for.  So we were ‑‑ I think some of you have already (?) the book made by the creating networks program and the use of (?)  We have published the book about what did the other youths in or around the world have been doing for the internet governance.  So that way, they could refer to the book and say this person has major (?) and somehow engaging on Internet governance in their own professional way.  That's how they get linked to those kind of things because other than, they would never know how they will continue their journey without any guidance.  So in conclusion, if you are kind of expert in this field, I would like to encourage you to guide people around you if you see any user around this IGF, please talk to them and give them guidance so that we can have more youths included.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you for giving us your ideas and your opinion on the situation in your area and seeing that youth may have lack of awareness and that will be something.  That's why we're here in the room for helping us, our generation to narrow down the gap of knowledge and understand more about Internet Governance.  We've been hearing young people talking a lot on how do we think we can contribute to Internet Governance and, of course later we will have a remark session for Q&A.  But before we move on, we would love to hear from Edmond who is actually working in the technical community from.osia organization to give us a comment as a technical person or from a Private Sector, how do you see you in Internet governance and how we can contribute.  Thank you.

>> Thank you, genA. this is Edmond Chun here.  Thank you‑for‑having me here and not so young to be on the panel and shake up the diversities here a little bit.  I'd like to share a little bit because I guess when I started, I was relatively young.  That was 1999.  When I just graduated and started participated at Internet Governance at ICANN, at ITF.  That experience led me to 10 years from there in 2009 at DotAsia.  It is one of the first youth engagement programs around the world.  One of the first few back then.  It spawned a number of programs of IGF in Asia and Internet Governance academy which I think number of people around the tame have been at.  But more broadly speaking helping spark a kind of youth IG movement around the world.  Now many of the international and regional initiatives have a youth component some there.  I am quite excited that now in 2019 I'm here sharing some of ‑‑ maybe some of the experience and learning.  Capacity building is obviously one important aspect of youth programs and youth engagement.  Getting young people to participate and me going into ICANN back then really didn't know much.  Jumping right into it.  But understanding different views that inform the multi‑stakeholder concept.  I think that's always quite useful.  Understanding how governments think, how businesses might think, how technology technical people might think is important.  Keeping it interesting and interactive obviously is important.  I think we're quite excited to have pioneeredd role‑playing or model ICANN approaches in youth engagement in IG.

Eye couple of things I want to draw attention on.  The last few years, especially in the last five years or so, we're very focused on following up and following through.  It's not just a program and then it's done and it's ‑‑ we'll leave it to the young people to come back or not, but having buddies, mentors, having additional fellowship programs that allow multiple exposures because the first time you come to IGF, it is cool and exciting.  You hear a lot of stuff, but the first time you come here, you may not be able to contribute a lot whether IGF or ICANN.  And creating a workshop.  That allows young people to then actually get engaged.  So I think one important aspect of youth programs is that multiple exposure.  So a couple of challenges that over the last 10 years or so working on this that we've seen is one important thing especially from Asia‑Pacific region is Apathy.  As young people, we can't change much anyway.  So what's the point and going back to Elliot's point, this is not going to find me a job.  So what's the point of actually engaging and participating.  This is something that I think in our program especially receipt two years we've been trying to focus on to really think it through how young people through the program can realize and influence is possible.  Whether it is creating a workshop here at IGF and creating a global policy for domain names at ICANN and helping write an RFC and if you don't know all those Acroim ins, you can search them and that's part of the interesting exercise.  But there are certain situations like at IGF that I can point to that young people made an impact.  Some people might disagree with me that this was an impact that was made.  But I remember very vividly at oon IGF meeting Brazil.  There were a lot of young people and there was a component in the global IGF.  At the open mic, everyone from the young youth community was talking about zero rating.  Really talking up the problems with Facebook on free basics.  Just a few weeks later from that event, in the (?) this whole zero rating thing and free basics from Facebook, free basics from India didn't make an effect?  Maybe, maybe not.  But I think so.  The public outcry especially from young people did make a difference.  So focusing on some particular issue is important and making sure young people realize that it can make a difference.  Two more things I want to bring up in terms of my learning from the few years of work here.  One is something that you might forget.  Engage traditional youth engagement organizations.  You see a Group of young people from Hong Kong over there wearing blue wind breakers.  They're from a program called I focus if I'm not mistaken.  This is a program that we engaged DotAsia YMCA.  It is a youth organization.  And engaging them what that means is that once we engage them, now they have their own program and every year, they have a sustainability of able to bring young people to sustainably bring to IGF and to these forums.  Engaging traditional youth organizations is just as important as starting new initiatives.  And finally, back to Elliot's point, in the last year or so, we realize that job opportunities are important.  And there are lots of jobs, I can say, in Internet policies.  And they won't end very soon.  Think about it.  And being here and being part of and being involved and engaged and participating will give you a good opportunity actually.  We've seen that.  We've seen Asum nie of our ‑‑ alumni of our programs get picked up by different companies and organizations in the internet governance community.  I will leave you last with this.  We often talk about AI and a replacement ore displacement of jobs.  One thing I'm pretty sure one of the last jobs to be replaceed is tech Internet policy or in short politics because this is probably the last man standing to fight to keep that particular job.  So you're in the right place and I think four things.  Sustain, support and multiple exposure to seeing the influence that young people can make.  Involve traditional Groups, involve traditional youth and point to job opportunities.  I think that's a real thing.  When you're going through university ‑‑ when I was going through a university, that was the top thing on my mind.  How do I find a job?  I started my own company, but that's another story.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you for giving us a really fruitful and detailed ideas on how you think about this topic.  And thank you all the speakers who give us ideas and letting us know how important sustainability and this youth community and how we give multiple exposure important.  So here that's the workshop acts like a platform for us and also a process we hope that you learn something from everyone regarding of your age, your background or your education background or where you're from, I hope that the sessions after this we will be having someone take away and I believe that after you all give some comments and other people sit down there, I hope that you pay attention and I hope to hear your comments or if you have any questions on what our guest speaker earlier on their speech earlier, please feel free to raise up your hand and to ask a question or make a comment and no worry.  I will try to keep the queue so that you raise up your hand.  If I give you a look, no worries.  You don't have to raise multiple times.  Before you speak up, please state your name and affiliation so we can all know each other.  So Martin first.

>> Martin:  Hi.  Martin.  Media game indicator being involved in governance and youth participation for about a decade now supporting different processes.  I think it's very great to hear the different perspectives from all these initiatives.  I think they all contribute very diverse elements.  We have financial support.  We have support and application process.  Supporting knowledge of the participants and we also have some degree of coordination.  I think the point on the impact is a bit of a mixed back of what impact we have, but I think more impact will always stand on the end of better process as if you're designing here.  What I feel is missing is for once a bit of an aspect of Harmonization fine the initiatives because everybody has sort of that one focus that can contribute and maybe there is more coordination between initiatives that could lead to here holistic approach they can offer to participants.  I am missing the aspect of attitude.  They don't necessarily know how to contribute to the processes and how the IGF works, what to do on the spotted and that's the pointd gentleman from the private sector brought it up with one time visits is very particular.  If you do not know what to do, you are not able to use this opportunities to be here.  So something that I would call for and something where I would like to hear your thoughts is how we can guarantee continuous involvements.  The big issue is that every year, we have a lot of people there for one time and probably overwhelmed by the process, but how do we create a process that year long gets young people involved and prepares them to be there and make sure when they are there, they can make the most of that one‑time opportunities.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you, Martin.  I saw the hands from the right‑hand side before and the other hand.  Any other people?  Okay.  Okay.  So here first.

>> Okay.  My name is Carson gabryiel.  First I would like to say proof that young people have some sort of seat at the table is this workshop.  You can see it was organized by young people and I also organized the works shop and that is the benefit.  In one way or another, I have seen the dividend of being connected toes internet and so now I can share my perspective from my point of view.  Something I would like to say that as young people, we are privileged to be here.  We should carry this responsibly and be accountable.  We see people that come from being at the IG space.  We have youth observatory.  We have (?) grass roots as well as (?) voices.  These are projects which are really built by young people from the grass root level and trying to mobilize more young people to come and understand what Internet Governance is and how we can use it and localize it to be relevant.  I would like to say we have the numbers in terms of demographic.  It means we need to consolidate our voices now to coordinate togethery is we can be able to push more force when it comes to decision making.  When we go back home, it is important that we are the ones to go to the legislative process.  We come there a different multi‑stakeholder Group which means we are leaders and in governance, we can apply in our own sectors so that we can push for more inclusive Internet.  Let's at least and if you cannot do Tlet's make the noise so we can make the change and it is important for us as I say.  We need to consolidate and coordination to have single youth voice to implement change.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  I will take one more question and come to the panel for remarks and then go back to the queue.  So you.

>> Thank you very much.  My name is Innocent Adriko.  Before I say anything, I would like to say thanks to my friends over there.  I know they're watching in a remote hub.  They have an institute of information.  So right from there, I would like to say that's one of the ways to still make the youth participate in the IGF.  The remote hubs.  We have not looked into them and they are important for us.  It doesn't cost a lot to make the remote hub and have youth engaging and asking their questions.  And besides that, I do agree that IGF is important.  But it is not possible for everyone to make it here.  So the question is:  How do you make yourself present?  That's why we're talking about remote hubs.  And also, the Asia national IGFs, it's easier to involve more youth in the IGF.  I mean in the national IGF than here at the global IGF.  If we can focus on national IGFs and regionals because it is easier for them to attend from there, the youth formed of the internet and we do believe that we are more digital included on the internet.  We need to understand how important it is to us and why there's need for Internet Governance.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  All right.  Thank you, we will get back to the panel to get more interactive before we get back to the queue and also the questions on the remote participation.

>> I would like to ‑‑ (?) and I completely definitely on the same page.  But for one thing.  I don't really see the problem of people coming here being here one time and then getting lost.  Sure it can happen, but I sees problem that people want to be engaged and I hear one time and maybe it's a bit of an overwhelming experience, butty get to know people.  It is in terms of how you work together and how you approach people in an open environment.  And then they don't get the opportunities to transfer it to their own content or stay engaged where they are or come back to a global IGF, which is by Innocent just one opportunity to be involved.  We need to keep in mind there are certain levels of privilege of being here.  Definitely need to be then transferred to where young people are actually because sure it could be our policy goal to get everyone here, but everyone is a lot of people.  So I would rather go for those of us who are here and who get these opportunities to exchange and build networks to then try and change something where we are.

>> I agree.  Elliot here.  I agree.  To what Martin was saying and also Innocent, it is a concern that people do come once and then fall out of the loop.  I think thinking back matically when it comes to the program and the IGF, the (?) and if that means there are people that goes once and then doesn't go at all, I think as far as I can tell, that's an acceptable risk.  I think with the continuous engagement and the needs to come in at a national and regional level, I was dismayed this way to say Australia doesn't have a remote hub.  Part of it is time zone issues, but also (?)  It's a large enough technology ecosystem.  And those are the sorts of places where there should be continuous involvement and there should be grass roots efforts to keep people involved.  I think this goes back to the attitude point.  The real take away of attending these events is you are learning what is happening else where and you can take it back to your own economies and apply it there.  That might mean sending out a remote hub.  At least for me, finding out what was happening in your own economy.  That is the real take away and I will continue to have that with me even though I don't attend another IGF events again.

>> I want to go back to the point that was about the wholistic approach.  I would like to have a raise of hands for how many of us are coming from a youth organization.  Can we have in the room if you are coming to the IGF from the youth organization?  Please raise your hand.  Now we have a responsibility of getting together.  Take it as an example.  One way that we should be doing, which is speaking.  And sometimes as we mentioned, there's also a lot of opportunities to be here to take the support and shares familiar support is important ‑‑ financial support is important.  It is important we don't create confusion for the ones trying to come in.  Again, as mentioned, sometimes we are doing things on our own perspectives.  Perhaps someone out there is doing the same.  Perhaps you are doing the same effort and achieving not the best result.  I raise an example of this is what was created with the youth IGF movements.  There's a lot of initiatives, Youth IGF movements and parallel tracks and sometimes it's not leer about how do they relate to, how do they Connect and it's a fair point to see that engagement especially in young people as being done on a local region.  And that comes ‑‑ fames back to the argument of my introduction presentation that we need to reach out to young people where they're at.  Meaning that the remote hubs are actually excellent opportunities, but also has here are the important link that is needed to convey the messages in order to get their perspective to the table.  Thank you.

>> Okay.  All right.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  We will jump back to our queue and the ladies on the right‑hand side.  Before that, we have few questions from the remote participation because remote participation we valued same as the people that attend on site.  Can you please read the questions out and see how we can comment on that too.

>> Yes.  Hello.  I am Mary here part of the youth IGF summit and I am a human rights lawyer from Armenia.  I will read out the questions from remote participants.  And the question is the following.  How to create a national university IGF.  Do we need to take IGF accreditation?  So far that's the question.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  And then we have the lady on the rapid side with the white sweater.  Your turn.

>> okay.  So I'm Maria.  I represent to (?) cyber crime.  I am an ambassador in Ukraine.  First of all, it is more I wanted to comment.  Is it okay to comment or is it time for questions?  Okay.  Okay.  Thank you.  So first of all, thank you for the discussion and as Dominic said, everyone is looking at their laptops.  Anyway, I was looking at my laptop too because I was preparing my speech noted.  So far this is one of the most interesting discussions for me at IGF.  As it was said, one of the firsts.  Yes.  So I know we should have more of that.  That's the first point.  Second thing I would like to mention is that organize different events for young people in Ukraine and it's more like raising awareness kind of thing and then they can come from different backgrounds, it can be technical backgrounds and artistic backgrounds and political science.  The problem I face, of course, is that Internet governance is such a diverse thing and to understand some of the problems, you need to have this complex world to you and even understanding from like different spheres.  And even if I go to IT students and there is something about IT, there is still a need for catching up about the IG issues.mean, it is still far from people you need to do a lot of work to get them to understand the issue.  Yes.  And I feel this is more because that IG issues are out of our information sphere.  I mean, media are not talking much about it.  And this kind of stuff.  So this is a problem to find something like in two different (?) some topic that people would understand and they may already have developed their own thoughts about that.  If they thought about it before because they seen it on TV or something, write about it a lot.  And the third thing is that I hear a lot of talking about the employment in IG sphere and this is a thing to engage young people.  Yeah.  Sure it's important and maybe right now to be in this IG sphere, you need to invest a lot of time and go to the meetings and that kind of thing.  But I believe we need more ‑‑ to work more on the worldview points.  What I mean if we take climate change or if we take people volunteering on liked Saturdays at the shelter for animals, they don't think about employment.  They just think doing something important fors planet or for the animals because they care about animals and this kind of thing.  I believe we need to develop this understanding why this is important and I believe it is.  We also need to engage young people also from this point of view because Internet,you use it every day is.  How come it's not important.  All the problems, the majority of problems concern you.  It's not that immediately like what ‑‑ what you immediately think when you go online, you just ‑‑ I'm sorry.


I guess you see my point that we need more this holistic view and why is that also important the daily lives not just to get employment or like to travel.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you so much for your comments.  Before we move on to the gentleman, I remember this one hand from there.  You first and the gentleman at the back we open the floor.  I will keep the queue.  Okay.  So keep going.  You first.

>> I am from Brazil and I am part of the board of the youth observatory, youth special interest Group.  I would like to address the need for us to discuss the different levels of challenges that young people face to stay engaged in the community.  We know that Ig F is not especially a welcoming place to stay and that affects not only young people,bi it affect especially us.  We know how hard it is to stay here and between so many experts and it's challenge for our voice to be taking into consideration.  When it comes to older young people and I'm talking about people like me, I'm 27, for example.  I am leaving the youth community.  I feel most of our challenges come from lack much opportunity to stay engaged as professionals here.  We don't see many opportunities for us to work in organizations that are engaged in the community.  I don't know if that's only really (?) from my region from Latin America or something that you guys face in your regions too.  We speak about it more frequently.  I'm not sure if that's again an issue from only people from developing countries, for example.  Also I would like to give just a few remarks from our youth (?)  He was mentioned before.  We get our testimonies from over 150 young people from all over the world.  We see that it's really common in the testimonials that people see how important it was to have an opportunity as a fellow to stay here.  Without a fellowship, they wouldn't be able to afford to travel, for example.  And let's not forget this is the third IGF in Europe.  So that's really a challenge for us because it's really common for young people.  They not afford to travel and be here in this event.  Okay.  You shouldn't need to be here in person to stay engaged in the community.  But let's face the truth.  If you want to take into consideration and we want to have our organizations taking this organization in the community, we have to be here in person.  So yeah.  Yeah.  That's it.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you.

>> So hello.  I represent NetMission.Asia.  So the first question that I want to raise is about I think people do not really understand that being a youth representative is a very unique stakeholder Group in its nature.  You cannot stay too long and you have to grasp this opportunity.  Like you said, if you come to IGF only once, you have to make the most of it and you're going to be young once for 5, 10 years and you grow up and eventually, we all grow up and become part of other stakeholder Groups.  We have this very temporary, very not long lasting opportunity to actually voice out our opinions and I think that this needs to be understood by all other stakeholder Groups.  And also when we talk about making our voices heard, we are so focused about what we can do at youth, but we're not talking about what well is other stakeholder Groups do.  No matter how loud we raise our voices, if they're not appreciated by, parties, if they're not heard by other Groups, then what is the point of raising our voices.  It's not important to others.  This is the one thing about not being welcomed here.  You can speak, but no one is going to take you seriously for that.  Also I think one of the ways of making voices heard is maybe ‑‑ during the regional and national initiatives, what about making young people speak there and carry the other steak holders Group who have the opportunities of coming to global level events.  They can carry those voices to the table where young people cannot be present.  So what about engaging other stakeholder governments and private sector and making them talk to the young people in the original initiatives and bringing those voices with the representation to the bigger tables where young people can now be present to various reasons.

>> Thank you for making your statement.  I'm sure that everyone in the room would love to hear what people from other stakeholder Groups want to know or what do they think.  You can contribute to internet governance, but we will have the gentleman in the back to give the last question.  We will have open forefront starting from here.  So please go ahead.

>> Hi.  Does it work?  Yes, it works.  I am a youth representative from the Netherlands.  I am trying to engage other youngsters to be involved in this process.  I would really love to everyone courage you all to participate in sessions, be active in sessions, make your voice heard.  And besides that, also what you take away from this international experience, bringing back locally and originally and try to engage your local environment there; however, don't try to let youngsters only talk to other youngsters.  Try to engage with all other parties like the governments, private sector because only youngsters talking to youngsters won't have that much of an impact in my experience.  In the Netherlands, we have a long history in military stakeholder approach talking with partnerships and we try to engage every stakeholder in the aspect as well.  So what we try to do is try to get everyone involved in decision making processes not only on policy making, also try to understand each other.  And you won't have to agree on everything; however, if you make what you stand for clear, then you will have to impact that you can make.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Any comment?  I have the queue.  Any comments from the panel first?

>> I think it's just important to sum up the ideas that have been throwing around and I think one was already mentioned by a lot of people is that are we actually in a youth bubble right now because we are actually having a flies conversation and raising nice questions, but again, it's not clear if we are making sure that message, that arguments are being brought outside.  I think the last comment also refers once again to reaching out to the right people.  It's not clear exactly if that means one shot opportunities or continued strategy.  But I think there are plenty of reasons for why at least youth should be involved either for professional reasons either for personal meet vacations ‑‑ motivations.

>> All right.  Just two or three quick points.  I'm sure we need to broadcast this to the outside and not stay within our bubble, if there is one.  It is also important to create opportunities to exchange them a network.  I kind of like the idea of the expiration date of youth.  I don't see it as a problem.  I see it as an opportunity.  Even if you move out of the youth Group, which it will be the case, but we still carry what we have done with us and then when we are in other stakeholder Groups, we still have this view of having been engaged for years doing youth work and actually listening very closely to what young people have to say.  This is an opportunity for the firsttime we have in the space.  We had to grow into it and then we grow out of it, but we still carry it with us.

>> Evan here.  What you mentioned is really the part of the value that's still in the networking.  So it's network here in a global sense, but also going bringing the experience back to the local and influencing local developments.  But I think if the voice from any steak holder Group regardless of youth or others need to be heard, there needs to be some foamal points ‑‑ focal points.  Particular issue are your priorities and then voice that out.  Maybe for each year it's a bit different.  But there needs to be some focal point rather than too broad of a discussion.  Thank you.


>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you for the comment from the panel.  I wonder if the lady ‑‑ my right‑hand side, (?) and then I will go back to and I will move to the next part which is opening the floor.  I will keep Stephanie in the queue, but you can comment on the discussion we have for now.

>> thank you.  (?) actually a part of the youth observatory.  So as a part of the two very important branches and has a role in this environment.  I would like to bring forward what you said.  We are in a bubble like what we have here.  We have strong and reach young people, but I don't see really (?) tomorrow.  Adults here that can listen to us.  So we are enforcing things for ourselves some we are not showing off.  We need to show off.  We need to make them understand that we are good enough to be the main sessions.  We are good enough to speak for ourselves and about the issues that they are talking about.  (?) laptops and note books while we are in session doesn't mean we're doing order stuff.  Even if we are, we are because we're not ‑‑ we have jobs to do.  We are here, but we left our universities, our masters and everything and we have another life.  So that's difficult.  We are doing a double row here.  Like Latin America person, I'm here because I have a fellow.  I wouldn't be here if I hadn't.  The fourth time we're in Europe.  I'm from Brazil.  So my money is worth little here.  We have to see all the difference here.  We are youth.  We are talking only in this youth bubble.  We have to put ourselves forward.  We have to show to the adults what you want to call.  We have to show what we are doing.  The (?) that were organized by the observatory and with observatory members only is an example of what the young power can do and what we can show, but that's not enough.  So what I think is that kind of discussion is very important to create something for us to organize ourselves, but we need to do a step forward and actually show off, you know.  Show we are prepared for more.  I'm saying that we are, but we have to do this.  I hope that I make myself clear.


>> I agree.  That's a problem.  There will be zero in the Pacific zero.  It's an issue that faces everybody.  I'm not saying hold it in Australia because nobody would know getting phases, but it is an issue.  This is one of the things I picked up this week when talking about the future of IGF is really starting to push things into the national and regional phases and starting to move things in that direction.  Absolutely.  This is one (?) year and it doesn't help it is continuously helped in regions that are very far away from why anywhere else.  I think there are issues and I think it will go away.  I think there's consideration other than diversity of locations when it comes to where they hold the IGF.  I think as usual, one of the best ways we can remain involve is getting more involved in the national and regional level and that way you don't have to worry about funding not in such a way you have to come far away to Europe.  I think we might need an orientation of the issue.

>> John Pedro speaking.  I would say bravo.  Portuguese ‑‑ to you and take your argument to focus or perhaps bring another point to the table which is you mentioned that you are given the opportunities to be here and why not reflect on the pressure that we should be putting on the organizations that allowed that participation.  And allow for many of us to be here.  Report they also responsible that we keep showing or we present our messages and raise our voices at the right place?S shouldn't they be present to hear us since they gave us the opportunity?  So that's a couple of more questions so we can keep the discussion on.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Understanding that we have a bunch of questions and comments on this youth, but we have a main queue that's been waiting for quite a while and we have a lead on my right‑hand side to make a comment and Dominic will be the next.

>> Hello, everybody.  My name is Margarita and I'm from private sector and I run my own company where we create global competence project for youth around the world.  So they Connect online.  They target age is 9 to 14.  So first of all, I would like to target the issue of giving voice to the youth and especially the youth who are still in schools.  They don't know about opportunities like this.  So how can we do that is the main question, but we are talking about reaching out organizations who can sponsor trips for youth here, a bit older youth.  But there are other ways to do that as well as somebody mentioned reaching out organizations that already work with youth.  When I was 16, I was in a youth exchange program.  It is not in (?)  But it's a volunteering version where you go to another country for a year.  And you stay with local families.  And they are huge all over the world.  They go in the programs and they have no idea they can learn much more than just cultural exchange.  But now, there is much more.  They have interact clubs, interact goes into schools.  So there is so much exposure that already exists in the world for the youth.  And not having this organizations that can reach the youth directly connected is just a shame for us.  That's number 1.  The (?) exposure.  Number 2, how about people who already have access to youth in terms of trust?  Such people as teachers, educators, parents, adults, us, those who are not youth anymore.  They have direct seas.  They need to be educated and need to be united.  We need to be educated.  So we are talking‑for‑the youth here which by the way, is wrong.  They cannot be here.  I was talking with David from Colombia.  He's 14.  And after going through the program, he is setting up his own organization.  He has no idea.  So if I can tell him, I can also tell 50 other students around the world, if our organization running a community of educators, if each of these can share with the students, that's a much faster way to reach more engagement from the students and they don't have to be here in that sense.  We can set up a (?) sharing of ideas and read out the questions.  They don't come from life streaming, but they come from prepared educators who talk to them before.  And that's much evading for students and educators.  They're disren couraged to do professional training.  They don't see an impact and the students have the same issue.  They're motivated only when they see the impact.  If they know they will be direct impact at this conference at other organizations and countries, they will be much more engaged than reaching out to youth without the reason to come here and watch.  That's the second one uniting teachers and educators.  I don't see here.  And, of course, somebody mentioned I think it was Edmon who mentioned the program you have for preparing students to continue being engaged.  Right?  This kind of organization and taking it further.  How do we make sure students know what to say?  I think it was in a different session.  Somebody from the UN said they don't really have the structured opinions or the youth thinks it too simple to be implemented right away as solutions and it's true.  We can educate them just liked programs you do.  I suppose you mentioned.  We can do other programs or the same unit together and educate them how to look at issues existing in the world.  How to target solutions in a logical way and at the same time that are perceived as series issues and they are and how to find solutions to those issues all together.  We can teach them how to do that.  In that case if they share opinions, they will know what to do because we have taught them.  This is not an issue of not knowing how to participate in the discussions.  This is an issue of us not teaching them how to do that.  And yes.  The last thing I wanted to share is there are a lot of courses existing online, digital courses.  But very few people actually very few organizers of those courses teach about the (?) of the internet.  Digital literacy, ethics.  Very few people mentioned they don't have access to Internet.  Maybe we should have guidance or (?)  Courses they should follow aroundd world to educate people not only on topics they're focusing on, but also inclusiveness online too.  That's also connected with the gender equality online.  So thank you very much.


>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you so much for your opinion and comment.  We have a really long queue.  So I wish everyone can keep it shorted, but we have one question from remote.  Can Mary, can you read it out and then we go back to the queue.

>> We have a question from Abdul and the question is as follows.  An attempt to make youthful participating the IGF, what do you knowledge the opportunities will have them be more committed and participate.


>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  You have any comments?

>> Well, I like very much the discussion that has come up now because I think it's very important.  I will try to be concise with my comments because they will be.  One thing about a discussion before is there's a lot of young people here and I think we are not only representing us personally here, but we're also representing young people in general here.  So when we talk about young people, let's not talk about them, but let's talk about us because we're just as much concerned.  I very much also think that we have this problem of the bubble, the youth bubble because we are sitting here in the room while the discussion is going on at the rest of the IGF and knowing the format of the IGF, there's a lot of discussions going on in the panels.  Very little interaction.  So when we are sitting in the audience, the difference that we can make ‑‑ well, not very significant I dare to say.  I would like to reflect on maybe possibilities of how we can change that.  For example at the counsel of Europe, we have as have that's called co‑management that forces young people to exchange governments with decision makers, with other stakeholders.  So taking this to an IGF perspective and understanding that as young people we don't have institutional support for what we are doing.  We don't have government legitimacy.  We don't have business interests in the developments.  We're always dependent ont steak holders.  So in an IGF context, I think it's very important to demand even though the format is open and should stay open institutional support from the organizations that we have a instructical voice as young people and that we have this backing so we're not as depentent on the good will of all the other stakeholders.  I hope that was concise enough.


>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you, Dominic.  Now we have Stephanie.

>> So I wanted to add a bit about education.  In the conversation, we can't really stress on the world of government.  In Hong Kong, I see the reality that we are very exposed to all this faithbook and all this technology, but we are so vulnerable.  And the protests, many of youngsters they use telegram applications.  But they still lack the skill to really look for a real encryption and so.  So what I'm stressing here is that I believe as the (?) here, we can push (?) to add more sources on digital literacy and show citizenship and empower them at a very young age.  Now we entered (?) and we realize the importance.  We just started as a very young age.  We can take it as a digital rise.  It very important.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Martin?  Okay.  Juliana.

>> I wanted to comment on my colleagues comment.  When I enter the IG field, I always received a lot of inch sentives ‑‑ incentives to continue working on that.  I wanted to add that working as a volunteer is also a privilege because nobody ‑‑ everybody has the means to support themselves and most of all from the global self, we have (?) and at the same time, finish our studies and that makes it impossible for people to continue and evolve in the ecosystem.  I think it's important and I am more thank willing to do volunteer work.  We just published a gook on a volunteer basics.  Sometimes when you're not volunteer it's not only because you don't want to telephone engaged in the field.  Sometimes it's just that because you have to work.  You need to take your time to do something that is going to provide you with funds to continue studying or continue doing whatever it is that you were doing before entering the IG ecosystem.  When I tell volunteers, it's important, but at the same time, it has to be seen as a privilege because not everybody has time to do it on a full‑time BASIS.  In my country, all of my friends that are involved in the IG field have to work as well.  We're not aim to volunteer and go to the universities and keep going to the IGF when (?) is about five times the value of our local Kerr rinse.  So it's just ‑‑ I feel we haven't involved a lot, the debates on how can we provide people with 19 and when they come from less privileged situations and global self, when day come from place ises where you're supposed to work.  They tell parents they're not working or do something.  Their parents will say oh, dear, amount.  I cannot afford for you to do volunteer work when you cannot study or when you cannot help us with the bills or anything else.  So I wanted to add.  This is something we have to discuss further.  We have to provide young people means to continue without relying on volunteer work only.  Not saying volunteers are not important.  It is problematic when it comes to less privileged people.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you so much.  Voice not only for you, but we will have a gentleman at the back to give us a comment.  We only have five minutes left.  So we need to be quick.  Thank you.

>> (off mic) so I'm telling you something about the situation in Italy.  I'm not a young person as you can see.  But I'm the President of the Italian chapter of the Internet Society.  We are promoting a lot in our organization, a role for the young people and we are organizing meetings in the parliament or other occasions to where the young people are making the principle role.  And also, we have a couple of persons in our board of directors and here in this IGF in Germany, we brought together for the first time 13 people of the young generation.  A lot of them are (?) and you can raise your hand.  And I think that the idea of having intergeneration participation is very, very important.  And not leaving them to be a separated constituency from all the rest because we have to promote the new leaders.  This is our scope.  This is our scope.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  I'm so sorry we have to cuts off.

>> I'm relgetting very excited.  We were just thinking we belong to a European network.  So I come from the southwest of Spain.  My name is Antonio.  We belong to a European network.  We have them working of digital inclusion not necessarily with youth and we realize there are others involved in this network.  It works with topics related to Internet governance.  So our suggestion would be probably from the youth IGS, there can be a recommendation to the European networks that work with Internet Governance related topics as all digital is.  Two, promote from members different actions to include youth organizations in strategies and in voice to bring to the summit.  We have an annual summit.  We bring speakers and there are youth organizations present.  There is this life‑long learning European platform relatedd to the topics and probably youth organizations are more or less active and can be more inclusive if we send a almostation saying this is an issue, this is a topic and this is a (?)  We will be very interested to have the voices.  In my organization, I personally work with youth and I try to bring the topic.  Wye we see the need to have more presence.  This can be something to help.  We need to cut all the questions and comments here because we can't engage with people or remotely.  But then we have a lot of comments and opinions right now because this is not a one end thing.  We need to take away what we have discussed here to continue because we are not just here to just simply build the capacity of ying people or just network for one time.  We need to work on what we have discussed early and try to pop the youth bubble and then we can actually, you know, get a (?) everyone from different stakeholder Group.  So we can minimize the gap that we have and then at some point even (?) expire it one day.  We can all contribute to policy making process or even bring our person and get heard on the decision making, decision table.  So perhaps.  Any spinninger have anything to add on today's workshop?  If no, we will close really soon.  You have something to add?

>> Being used involving internal governance means you are doing something.  You vent have to talk about those issues or the time.  Be a member and a speaker.  That's one of the things you can do for undernet governance even though you don't work for internet governance directly for your job.  People will be asking what is it.  You will let them know what it is and that's what I do and then you get to know from the other people.  Go do what you want to do.  Thank you.

>> JENNA MAN HAU FUNG:  Thank you so much for joining this workshop.  I believe everyone enjoyed the discussion and I wish everyone who inches to create dialogues like that to reach out to other people in the room or actually outside the room.  They have some.  Sessions, but I believe this is a first step for us to work on together to try to pop the bubble and give some ‑‑ to work for our youth community and thank you so much again for joining this workshop and hopefully we can see more and more workshops that are organized and focusing on the problems we are facing in the Internet.  But just talking about youth only.  I hope to see more youth sitting on the table in the room, but not sitting at the bang.  In so many other workshops, young people may not have the courage to sit at the table.  This is a first stab that young people should find the role.  So thank you so much, everyone, for today.  I wish you all a good day.