IGF 2023 - Day 4 - Open Forum #59 Whose Internet? Towards a Feminist Digital Future for Africa - RAW

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

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>> Good morning.  Could you try to switch on your cameras and unmute?

  Or give us a sign if that's not possible.  Thank you.

    >> NNENNNA IFEANYI-AJUFO:  Hi good morning.  Can you hear me?

    >> Yes, perfect.

    We will give you a sign and start in a few minutes, we're just

  waiting for the rest of the speakers.

    >> Good evening everyone.  Just checking in the room.  Are we ready

  to start?

    Okay.  We just waiting for one more panelist, then.

    >> FABIOLA FRICK:  We will wait two more minutes and then we start.

  If that's okay for everyone.

    Towela, I think we can start.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Good morning, good afternoon.  This is the

  IGF 23 Open Forum.  Appropriately titled Whose Internet?:  Towards a

  Feminist Digital Future for Africa.  My name is Towela, I work with the

  African Union development agency in Johannesburg, South Africa and lead

  the economic division team and it is my singular honour and pleasure

  really to host this session, to moderate.  And actually cohort with my

  colleague Alice who's sitting in the room.  I'm really happy to have

  both the panelists that are physically in Kyoto, in terms of the

  context of the discussion that we will have today there's been a number

  of exciting developments from the African Union site in terms of the

  digital transformation strategy, which the commission has been working

  on in terms of unpacking that into a number of different policy

  frameworks and strategies for implementation.  Including very

  deliberate strategies related to data policy, the data governance,

  looking at ideas of issues of digital id, the transformation process of

  digitalization as it applies to different asectors across the

  continent, whether in agriculture, health or education.  And really

  trying to see how to appropriately position is ICTs and digitalization

  at the centre of Africa's economic transformation.

    I think attendant with that of course will always be the discussions

  around gender inclusiveness and how we really ensure that all these

  different frameworks, strategies, adequately take cognizance of the

  important aspect of gender and particularly the issues around

  inclusiveness when it comes to making sure that these policies and

  frameworks respond to the needs of women, that they actually are

  inclusive in terms of adequately positioning women not only in the

  definition of the strategies, but also in their implementation and in

  the benefits thereof.  So this discussion is meant to let us delve into

  issues.  We've got a very stellar panel in front of me that will be

  really looking at this issue and trying to unpack for us from their

  experiences what have they experienced in terms of gender

  inclusiveness, what have they done in terms of the work that they do in

  terms of promoting gender inclusiveness but also the challenges that

  they have faced.  We'll look at some of the barriers that perhaps we

  need to address as we look at the gender transformative nature of

  digitalization and then we will also look at some of the opportunities.

    Ultimately at the end of the day we want to be able to have

  recommendations for ourselves as women, recommendations for our

  policy-makers, recommendations for our partners.  And really

  recommendations that will ensure that for African women indeed the

  future is digital and it's a digital future that takes cognizance of

  their role.  Both on the supply side and on the demand side and in

  terms of also on the benefits as well.

    So that leads us to introduce my panel very briefly.  And I'm sure as

  they also make their interventions they will also perhaps supplement my

  very brief introduction with some additional information about the work

  that they have done.  So in no particular order, we have Alice Munyua ,

  the senior director for Africa working on a project called Reddit, and

  she has decades of experience working with multiple stakeholders on the

  continent with different issues, including being the founder and -- of

  the tech Internet and I'm sure will tell us more about that in terms of

  her establishing that particular organisation.

    We Bonnita Nyamwire joining us online at policy Uganda, data,

  technology and design, we have Dr. Nnenna Ifeanyi-Ajufo, board member

  of the African women's cyber security and professor of technology law.

  We have Ganna Ayman, for the Internet governance forum, for students at

  the University.  We have Liz -- and she basically in Kenya has worked

  in other capacities carrying out national cyber security assessments.

  Last but not least we are joined by the only male on the panel, who

  will give us the male perspective but also the partner perspective with

  this, Tobias tele, and we're pleased that he's able to join us for this

  presentation.  With that, let's get into it.  We will of course have a

  few rounds of questions and then specifically to the different partner,

  to the different panelists.  But we're also very much welcoming our

  online participants to also I think make use of the chat functions in

  terms of your Q&As and then also in terms of the people that are in the

  room.  Also please hold your questions so we can take them when we do

  the Q&A session to acknowledge the fact that Alice has generously

  agreed to support and co-moderate the session with me.  She will be

  helping us with the Q&A part of the session.

    So Alice I'm going to start with you.

    And really just looking at the different experiences that are in the

  room and among the panelists.  And how we have all traversed the

  journey.  I think you've been working in digital policy making for a

  long time.  You helped establish the Kenya ICT action network, kick

  Internet.  Done a lot of consulting including for the African Union and

  now working for Mozilla as a director.

    So maybe share with us what has been your experience in terms of

  paving the way I think for so many young African women who have gone on

  this journey and hoping to follow in your footsteps.  Alice.

    >> ALICE MUNYUA:  Okay.  Thank you very much Towela and thank you

  very much for inviting me to be on this panel and to co-moderate with

  you Towela, you have met me, aged me, I'm actually quite old in this

  space.

    Things started when we used to call this communication for

  development.  Or even before communication for development we used to

  call it social communications.

    So yes, you know, and yes my past year was actually being able to

  look at the Internet, the impact the new so-called Internet was having

  on society when I was then working for the Vatican, the Vatican radio

  and we were creating the Vatican II council.  God yes, I'm old.  And we

  were the first ones to actually begin to interrogate what this

  so-called new technology was about and what impact it would have.

    In society generally.  So -- and yes, I was actually the second or

  third cohort of women to be allowed to attend the prestigious Pontific

  University at the Vatican and also as a programme assistant for the

  African service of the Vatican radio.  So my background in

  communication is quite, you know, varied.  And my first laptop was one

  of those things that needed a whole wheel bare row to carry when I

  lived in Rome.  So it's quite a long journey.  And by then, you know we

  were looking at radio.  And then from then the Internet.  And then I

  was involved with the -- what -- the information society and there

  really acknowledging that there was a huge gender gap that women were

  not involved in the discussion, the discourse and evening the building

  of this new technology, the Internet.  So that's how far I come.

    And I would find myself in these spaces as the only woman.  And for

  those who know how that can be, I don't want -- I mean, I think I am

  going to use the word "violent" it can be really a violent space, to be

  the only woman and the only Black woman in these spaces.

    But then we did it.  And also then coming home to Kenya, where the

  Kenyan government had declared the Internet illegal and having to fight

  that.  That whole process.

    Our government actually did not want the Internet introduced in our

  country because there was this perception that it was taking away from

  the posts in telecommunication, what we used to call telecom Kenya.

  Lonely journey in that we didn't -- nobody understood this technology.

  The government policy-makers did not understand this technology.  Did

  not understand how you know, the -- how it could contribute or what

  value it was bringing to its own national development framework or the

  way they thought about the development framework.

    So it's through that and through joining together with -- I actually

  started working my first job was with the association for progressive

  communications, with Andrea here, running as their programme officer

 for communications, running huge project called catalyzing access to

  ICTs in Africa that was funded by the U.K. government, the Fand D it

  was there that I created the Kenyan action network.  The reason why I

  created the Kenyan ICT network was because a lot of people on one end

  you had government that did not understand the Internet.  Then you have

  the private sector that understood the potential of the Internet.

    And those -- so civil society that also understood the potential for

  the Internet in democratizing communication.  And we were all fighting

  each other.  You know, pulling each other.

    And so I took on the responsibility to try and bring us together and

  those who are Kenyans know that around this period 'til today -- and

  it's not just Kenya actually, it's globally.  When you're fighting for

  any right, there's -- it's very easy to be branded, you know, terrible

  names.  There's an African saying that when a hyena wants to eat its

  cubs it first accuses them of smelling of goats.  And so we were

  accused of being activists.  And because once you called an activist in

  Kenya -- I don't know about other countries -- it means that

  policy-makers are not going to listen to you.  Neither is the private

  sector.  Actually neither is the media unless they're really courageous

  to put down and to expose what we are trying to advocate for.

    So luckily for us there was a huge policy window, with a new

  government came in, the Kibaki government in 2000.  And thief there was

  a policy window.  At that point the minister of information

  communication was created.  And two of my really good friends Tugu and

  Auba Rega as was appointed at the secretary.  But then they made the

  mistake of disbanding the communications commission.  The regulatory

  body.  The board.  And by then I had left the APC, and was fully

  committed to just convening and ensuring that the kick --er net was

  running and fight to have an ICT policy framework that would allow

  especially the private sector and civil society to then do work in the

  country.

    And guess what?  Kibaki then appointed me to be a commissioner on the

  regulatory authority for six years there.  And serving with the various

  ministers, it was fast -- fast and second and third.  We managed to

  bring in the fiber optic cable, managed to create competition,

  signed -- I'm -- I'm the one who was the chair of the technical

  committee of the communications commission of Kenya.  Then it used to

  be called the CC K, now it's called the communication authority.

  Including signing the papers for what we -- the famous mobile money

  M-PESA, the most famous mobile money payment platform actually in the

  world.  And even kicker net is actually the only network of that

  nature.  Although currently it's completely different.  Government no

  longer actively contributes, it's become a think tank which is

  brilliant because we have not anticipated and really actually affirmed

  to this, we continue to do a lot of monitoring and evaluation.  And

  we're very clear we didn't expect the kicker net to survive beyond the

  creation of the ICT policy.  That it survived beyond that is a huge

  legacy and I'm very proud of what it is.  It was actually quite

  difficult doing that as a woman.  It was lonely.  I was the only woman.

  But I was very, very fortunate to be supported by really strong -- a

  very strong team of men.

    And allies.  So the former minister of information communication, the

  immediate former minister, Joseph Mushero created the network with me.

  And it was -- it is what it is now.  Chk.

    And as a woman and I knew how difficult it is, especially for young

  women to get into this kind of leadership position, so I only stayed

  long enough to be able to pave the way and hand it over to the current

  convener, Grace Kethiger, and I remember making her promise me that she

  will not continue being a convener for more than five years so she can

  hand over to the next women so we can have even more women in this

  space.

    So I moved from there and worked with the African Union for about

  three years.  That was I think the most difficult period of miff life

  because I became the punching bag.  I was an easy target.  I became the

  punching bag for our top level domain, dot Africa.  We were fighting

  for our top level domain, dot Africa from an American that wanted it.

  So an American wanting -- I don't know the name -- that belongs to an

  entire continent.  How I became a punching bag was because I was the

  only woman among the team of men that was fighting for that.

    We eventually had the -- the domain name delegated to African Union

  with a back hand manager, and I'm really proud of that.

    Moved from then and I am now leading and worked for Mozilla for about

  two years as the policy lead for Africa and I'm now leading a programme

  that's looking at having Mozilla's presence in the global majority.  So

  in Africa, South America, and Asia.

    Because Mozilla is an American company that hasn't actually made

  such -- you know, a huge effort to be global.  So my role is actually

  to create a blueprint from Mozilla to show up globally and to show up

  globally different because Mozilla is not big tech, its a he a mission

  base the company although I work for the corporation, not for the

  foundation but we are a very different kind of corporation.  We believe

  in an Internet that is truly healthy, joyful, and puts people

  especially women, back in control of their online lives.

    I'll leave it at that for any -- for any questions.

    Back to you, Towela.  Thank you.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Thank you very much.  And I think maybe

  with themes of persistence, resilience and being able to pave the way

  and hand over and pass the baton to other women I think are coming

  through in terms of your tore story.  I'm going to turn to you Bonnita

  Nyamwire, and I know you've done a lot of research in terms of looking

  at issues around women, but especially the Internet.  You have caused a

  very interesting report about all mat realities and all mat Internet

  and how African feminist research can guide a feminist Internet.  I'm

  curious to know a little more about this research and really what were

  the most interesting insights that you were able to uncover.  Bonnita.

    You can see me --

    >> BONNITA NYAMWIRE:  You can see me and hear me, please let me know.

  My name is Bonnita as already introduced I work for policy as

  co-director in research.  And the research that was talking about, we

  conducted as policy in 2019, 2020.  That was in five African countries.

  Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, Senegal, and Ethiopia.  And in this

  research we looked at experiences of women who use the Internet.  So

  general women who use the Internet and what it -- wanted to understand

  their experiences, gain an insight into their experiences, while using

  online spaces, while using the Internet and we got a very

  interesting -- what you can say interesting findings, but also very sad

  findings on the side of women.

    And most -- some of the key findings that we got were that all women

  are generally affected by online harassment, you know.  In online

  spaces, and different platforms.  And it is not that only women

  affected, even men are also affected by online harassment or online

  gender-based violence.  But women are significantly affected.  They are

  more affected compared to men.  And we also discovered that it was

  different categories of women that are affected by this online

  harassment in these digital spaces.  There were categories that were

  more affected than the others.  And we looked at -- we saw women who

  are in positions of leadership.  Like Alice was saying, she was, you

  know, a punching bag.  Very, very true.

    I relate with her experience, physically but also online when it

  comes to women who are in leadership positions, both politically and --

  positions, they are very significantly affected by online harassment,

  then women human rights defenders.  Again, goes back to Alice's job at

  one point as a woman, human rights defender.  They are also

  significantly affected by online harassment because of the work they

  do.  They are trying to create separate spaces for other women and

  girls.  So they really become punching bags in online spaces, but also

  in offline spaces like Alice really said.

    Then women in the media.

    Women journalists, bloggers, influencers because of the work they do.

  They are in the face of the TV, of online platforms.  Every time

  sharing news, raising awareness on different issues.  So they also

  significantly face or experience online harassment.  So those were the

  key categories of women that we found that had significantly affected

  by online harassment.  Then the other key finding from our research was

  that issues of online presence for African women and not as well

  attended to if you compare to other forms of violence.  And this is

  about online gender based violence.  So we found that other forms of

  harassment or violence or gender based violence, they are well attended

  to, they are articulated.  They are policies which are very straight

  forward.  But if you look at online harassment, online gender based

  violence, it is not as well as explored if you compare with for

  instance domestic violence, with intimate partner violence, with female

  genital mutilation.  I will give an example for instance if you come to

  Uganda to any police station, looking for just that or recorded cases

  of online gender based violence, you will hardly find any.  But you

  find cases of domestic violence have been recorded.  Cases of Internet

  partner violence have been recorded.  FGM is very recorded in areas

  where it was in Uganda, or is still even after today.

    So you find that these issues of online gender based violence among

  women, they are not as recorded as if you compare with other cases

  of -- or forms of violence against women.  So which is a very, very

  big -- actually tend to be pushed away and they are told that oh, this

  is a small thing that you can deal with.  You can handle that.  It's

  very simple.  Or you actually -- you are -- who posted it one, handle

  it.  And they made -- it is because of the work they do, it is because

  of their presence on line spaces, in digital spaces that they encounter

  these experiences.  That was the other issue that we found out.  The

  other one was that what we see offline actually is reproduced online.

  You know.

    Discriminatory gender practices shift by social, economic, cultural

  and political structures that we see offline.  They are really now

  reproduced online.  You know.  Whatever women are encountering in --

  offline spaces they are now seeing the same thing happening to them in

  online spaces.  On social media platforms and so on and so forth.

    The other key finding was that the policies that exist for countering

  online gender based violence among women, they are not very explicit

  about this kind of violence.  They are very sided.  They talk about

  cyber security, they talk about discrimination, you know, in online

  spaces.  They are -- there should be discrimination, there should be

  equality.  The Internet is a human right, even for women.  But they are

  not very explicit -- they don't really come out to say online

  harassment.  They don't really -- against women.  Because we have had

  policies, you know, like domestic violence, intimate partner violence,

  saying A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z, about women, about girls, about children.

  So that is not yet happening in the context of online gender-based

  violence.  Most of the policies -- again from the -- you know.  They

  talk about, you know, gender equality.  But they do not really come out

  about this form of violence.  So those are some of the key findings

  that we established from our research.  And I will leave it at that.

  Thank you very much.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Thank you, Bonnita.  And really thank you

  for highlighting I think the fact that perhaps there's a lot of

  asymmetry in terms of the information that is being captured about

  women's experiences online, especially when it pertains to the harm

  that is caused about I online spaces and how that perhaps can then

  impact on the women, the ability to engage effectively with online

  spaces.  I think it was important maybe as we -- we're having this

  discussion to always be mindful that you know, in our context I think

  women stand a very broad socioeconomic base.  So you have women in the

  rural areas, you have women in the urban, peri urban and all these

  women are have different experiences with the same issues.  And the

  question becomes how does one come to address that as well.

    I'm going to turn to you now Nnenna, I know you are a prolific

  academic and researcher.  You teach on law and technology in the U.K.

  but you're also very connected to the policy spaces not only globally

  but on the continent as well.

    And you have a leading role in the AU cyber expert group.  I'm

  curious to hear from you, what are your experiences been as a woman

  working in this field.  But working I think in two different contexts,

  one in the U.K. one here on the continent.  And really trying to

  navigate that space in terms of the intersection of law and technology,

  but also your journey as a woman in that space.

    >> NNENNNA IFEANYI-AJUFO:  Thank you so much, Towela.  I'll say thank

  you so much for this very important conversation, this panel.  And of

  course to GIZ as well.  In terms of personal experience, I would say

  that a huge motivation for me has been women's rights.  17, 1 years

  ago -- which is also interesting to see the dimensions, the different

  dimensions of our conversation in terms of women and the discussion.

    I was researching into criminal human rights abuses, international

  criminal crimes, in Africa -- about 18 years ago.  And it struck me one

  day how women's voices could be amplified in terms of being witnesses

  or being victims and interestingly the years later the international

  criminal court is now accepting digital evidence.  And for me at that

  time it was how do I work in an area where digital evidence, human

  rights, cyber rights would be relevant.  And I think as we have these

  conversations there are three key issues that needs to be underscored.

  The first one is you know, human rights and technology for women which

  Bonnita has talked a lot about, digital rights.  There are also

  questions of cyber security and women.  Which Bonnita has also

  highlighted.  And also bridging the digital divide is key in Africa.

  Because sometimes when I think about bridging the digital divide in

  Africa there are still levels to it.  Which Africa remains the least

  digitalized renal I don't know in the world.  But not just bridging the

  gender divide as we talk about but also enhancing inclusion and

  ownership in the digital space for women.

    These conversations need to be had, to be had in this sort of -- when

  we promote these discussions.  In terms of my experience and you know

  aligning to promoting women, and enhancing women's participation and

  rights for women.  I will first of all start by saying that in the

  policy space I will come to the research and academic perspective.  In

  the policy space there is very little focus and targeted policy

  implementation and even policy development for women in Africa.

    What we have seen is sort of a charity approach to these

  conversations.  Sometimes I usually say it's easy to come for election

  campaigns and hear men talk about what they will do for women.  And of

  course that is also reflected in the digital space.  So it's easy for

  new policy-makers to talk about what they want to do for women, but in

 reality, these policies are not clearly conceptually clear.  And they

  are not even -- there is no plan to implement these policies.

    The other issue is a lack of harmonized approach to these issues.

  Now, one of the things we pointed out as being in the U.K. you would

  see a more honour Mondayized approach to these issues.  It is clear

  that this is what the policy is all about, this is what the target,

  this is what the outcome, this is what the goal is.  In Africa there is

  no homogenized approach, whether from the Africa Kahn union regional

  level, subregional level and even at the national level.  So even at

  the national level you have this sort of fragment approach to the

  issues of women, in the digital space.

    Whether it's for inclusion, whether it's for participation.  Digital

  empowerment, cyber security issues, or questions of digital rights.

  What you then have is a more individualistic approach in terms of the

  capacity building, in early its of access.  You have individuals who

  want to help, you have civil society organisation like Bonnita's

  organizations.  But then when you then talk of having it harmonized and

  measuring the implementation, is usually a challenge.

    The other issue for me is Africa's digital transformation strategy p

  strategy.  I mean we've done well by pushing out digital transformation

  and strategy for the next ten years, but I usually ask where is the

  accountability in terms of the digital transfers administration

  strategy?  Are we clear and what we want to achieve with the digital

  transformation strategy (?) What is the short term implementation, the

  long term implementation.  It has been there for three or for years

  now, where are the gains, we don't see any documents telling us this is

  what has been achieved.  Who has achieved what.  We have to be

  practical with these different conversations.  It is very silent when

  you talk of women.  There is even a lack of prioritization of these

  issues, that is where we need to start sag the conversation.  Are we

  prioritizing issues offend he ever.  And when we talk of gender in

  Africa we usually think oh, it's all about empowering women.  It's just

  about women.  But it's a whole triangle of even empowering children,

  girls, the girl child, children.  And even the family as a whole.  And

  if you look at Africa's charter on human rights, Africa is one

  continent that actually stipulates culture and family as a key issue.

  And I think it's something that should be reflected in other aspect.

    Now I also want to talk about research.  I think in 2017 I was

  privileged to do a human rights publication on human rights and

  technology for African women.  Sometimes I go back to look for research

  in relation to women in Africa.  There is none.  Interestingly I'm

  working with Bonnita on a detailed probably jekt on cyber rights.  It's

  been a struggle getting back -- that book published.  She knows about

  this.  And it just gets me to reflect on the challenges you have with

  research.  First of all U all the challenge of having avr Kahn

  researchers in the field.  We can't do anything with our data, we can't

  do anything without research.  One thing I've noticed in terms of my

  experience is a huge challenge in that aspect.  We can't have these

  conversations if we have not mapped the realities, I know ICT has been

  trying to do so much work as well.  So we can't have these

  conversations if we've not mapped the reality.  It becomes more

  hypothetical than it is real, saying Africa in terms of culture, gender

  issues, but then in reality, if we can't map the reality, we can't

  actually answer or have a valid conversation with these issues.  As we

  go on I can talk more about other experiences.  Thank you.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Thank you very much, Nnenna, I will not

  attempt summarize all of that.  Number one we don't want charity.  We

  don't want tokenism.  Women want to be adequately included in all

  aspects of whether it's policy making, policy implementation, research.

  And just making sure that our voices are heard.  And I think that to

  the point around really the research and the data and the evidence, I

  think there is also I think a space perhaps for having a conversation

  about how as women we're going to show up in terms of leading and

  driving some of these processes.  Including holding our institutions to

  account.  When they develop strategies and when these strategies now

  need to be implemented.

    So Tobias, I'm going to now turn to you.  If you have heard from

  three very powerful women.  One more still to come.

    But I'm curious to know from you now in the role that you have,

  working at GIZ, working with the African Union and really managing that

  cooperation between the GIZ, on behalf of the German government and

  African Union.  Based on your experience how do you see Germany's

  developing cooperation adequately supporting Africa's digital

  transformation and what role do you see gender inclusiveness playing in

  the digital sector?  Tobias?

    >> Tobias.  Okay.  I try this one.  Yeah.  Thank you so much Towela

  and good afternoon to everyone and good morning to those who are

  joining us online from the African continent.  It's a real pleasure to

  be here at the IGF and I would just like to use the -- seize the

  opportunity to thank our hosts, the government and people of Japan for

  doing an absolutely wonderful job at the hospitality here in Kyoto.

    Since I identify as a feminist and ally in the cause of women's

  empowerment, it's of course a particular honour to be on a panel that

  is basically -- except for myself, only staffed with powerful and

  inspiring women.  And I believe that this actually sends also an

  important signal because I think we all know that there is tendency in

  international conferences for panels to be rather male-dominated.

    The theme of this session is actually a very important one for the

  jer manl development corporation.  I mean a feminist approach to

  Africa's digital transformation, it both resonates with the German

  development corporation as a whole in terms of general policy but also

  especially with the work that my colleagues and I are doing in the

  context of our work with the African Union.

    So as you might know, the German government has made gender equality

  a key priority and that includes also having a foreign and

  development -- foreign and development policy that takes gender

  equality as a particular priority.

    So the German federal ministry of economic corporation, the TNZ,

  recently introduced a new strategic approach which it calls the

  feminist development policy.  And at the core of that policy or

  strategy lie the three Rs.  A focus on rights, resources, and

  representation.  And sort of three important dimensions that we need to

  consider when promoting the cause of women's empowerment.  In that

  spirit Germany hats set itself the goal of dedicating directly 90

  percent of the resources of the German development corporation put

  forward globally to contribute to gender equality by 2025.  And this

  feminist agenda is of course also a close guiding principle for our

  cooperation with the African Union including AUDA Napat, where Towela

  works and together in that context we aim to eliminate discriminatory

  structures for women and girls and other marginalized groups in the

  field of digitalalization and data governance.  And in this context we

  try to ensure particularly that female voices are systematically

  considered in all of the activities of the German development

  corporation portfolio and not only that these voices are included, but

 also that they're actually heard and find the right resonance.

    And the reason why we do this is out of the conviction, the

  fundamental conviction that sustainable development cannot be achieved

  if we don't address the fundamental flaws and inequalities in power

  structures.  And this includes women particularly, constitute 50

  percent of the population of this planet.  But it of course also

  includes any other group that experiences any form of discrimination

  based on any of the criteria, or characteristics.

    So and in that sense it's particularly important that gender equality

  and inclusion become reality for all.  Thank you.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Thank you for that, thank you for the

  rights, resources, representation.  I don't know about anybody else but

  I have latched on to that 90 percent.  We will see how we also make

  sure that we're able to direct resources adequately towards the

  participation of women.  But I think it's also perhaps a challenge

  between the continent as well in terms of being able to also direct

  more resources to amplifying the voitss of women.

    My last panelist I believe Liz is not in the room.  Before we go to

  taking some Q&A and comments from the room and from those online.  Liz

  I'm going to invite you to really share with us your experience in

  terms of the work that you've been doing and Internet governance, in

  multistakeholder engagement in Africa and really perhaps just getting

  to hear from you your experience of the gaps in terms of where, you

  know, women's engagement in digital processes is evident.  And then

  also what else you have found in terms of your work both at Ria, as

  well as at kicker net.  Liz.

    >> Thank you.  Thank you JZ for inviting me to this session which I'm

  so passionate about.  I'd like to start off by saying my story is not a

  movie like Alice, Alice Munoz chls and the rest.  Because she actually

  opened up with for us other women who are coming after her.

    And myself -- actually my story started out from the global Internet

  governance that she organised in Kenya in 20 -- was it 2012?  2011.

  Then I was a student and I was struggling to find out where I would fit

  in.  Into the society as a second year student, taking communications,

  bachelor education, communications.  At that time I was struggling to

  see whether I would like to be a poet, I would like to be a singer, I

  would like to be all those things.

    But then I stumbled upon -- I noticed that or said something like do

  you want to know how the Internet works?  And I studied -- started

  volunteering for that organisation.

    But what I didn't know is that I was working on the wrong side of the

  history.  So when Alice -- when Alice says that she was being bullied,

  I was on the team that was bullying her.  I wasn't bullying, but...

                (Laughter)

    >> LIZ OTEMBO:  But was on that side.  Until I was invited to the

  global IGF, to market the other side of Deutsche Africa and I got the

  story and I was invited to intern at Kenya Qeshuls, a board member.

  Also good experience from that leadership and from there I got to have

  a chance to -- to be in the team that actually formed Internet society

  Kenya chapter.  Chk which was a struggle to form because of many -- a

  lot of political issues.  Through the ten years.  But it was a success.

    I'd like to say that at that -- during that year tech was really

  developing in Kenya.  But it was so much of an elitist thing.  And a

  men's thing.  So being in that field as a woman it was intimidating and

  I would agree it's also violent.  Because you raise your hand, no one

  is interested to get what you're saying.  And even when you manage to

  say something, no one acknowledges it.  And it's those -- those tiny

  things that actually discourage you from continue being in the space.

  At that time as a woman and as a youth the spaces to participate in

  Internet governance was very, very little.

    And it was a struggle to stay in the space.  Because one, you need

  to -- to sustain yourself in the space you need to travel, you need to

  contribute, as a volunteer.  It meant that at that time you're

  struggling between finding a job that actually pays you and actually

  doing some of these passionate things.

    And also when you are attending meetings, as a young woman you are

  assign the the role of a note taker.  And you don't get to contribute

  to those meetings.  Chk so for a very long time I was a note taker but

  it wasn't a disadvantage.  Waept a disadvantage in the end because you

  get to understand -- because the field is so dynamic.  It meant that

  you get to understand what people are saying.  You have to put down in

  a way that other people also understand what is communicated in those

  meetings.

    And actually that helps grow my -- my career.

    So from that when dij yo was taking over kicker net she invited me to

  be part of the board members of kicker net.  I would say our experience

  there was exciting and challenging at the same time.  Because that was

  when Internet governance and the usage of Internet was really opening

  up in Kenya.

    And (exciting) we had to start demystifying concepts of net

  neutrality previously in a way that policy-makers actually understand.

  And I think that was the most exciting thing for me here during that

  time.  And I remember -- now moving it forward to now when -- were

  trying to tell people about the process of privacy.  And data

  protection.  Now it's very, very easy.  I remember the first times when

  we were advocating for the same and trying to get Parliament to put in

  data protection policy.  Parliamentarians would ask if you're a good

  citizen, what do you want to hide?  And what would a good citizen want

  to hide?  And those are very difficult questions also to answer from

  our end.  And so conceptualizing those concepts in a way that

  policy-makers and even the people on the ground got to understand and

  even start working on those policies was a challenging thing.  But it

  was also exciting at the same time.

    So I continued working with kicker net.  And I think as Alice

  mentions, that we moved from -- so that space of engagement is still an

  engagement space, but you also realise that much of the things that are

  being said on the list, but not being carried out or even being

  followed up.  So I'm -- government made a commitment to say that they

  want to follow up with data protection frameworks, then they would need

  someone to help them.  The civil society to help them.  And kicker net

  became that civil society that actually helped them through policy

  implementation.  That meant that we had to be registered, that meant

  that we had to stafrt designing the organisation from just where people

  just engaged but also people collaborated at the back end.

    So after kicker net I moved to global cyber security capacity centre

  which was another exciting venture for me.  I felt like I had done

  enough at the national level and we had opened up spaces for

  participation through the Kenya school of Internet governance that

  brought in very many experts from different fields to stafrt working on

  Internet governance issues.  Which Kecker net by itself could not have

  done that because it was so violent even for for the organisation.  So

  at the GSEC, another exciting work like I said and I worked with

  Towela, at that time I also started working with Riya, because there

  were very big partners with the GCSEC form ring, the global siebl cyber

  security, capacity centre for Africa, CTSA.  And that's where we worked

  with governments to actually build capacity.  National capacity.  On

  cyber security.

    There again it was a model space -- another space where women were

  not actively participate.  And especially African women and they

  started driving the concept of cyber security not just being a

  technical thing but it's also -- it was a people process and women were

  so instrumental in participating in cyber security policies.  One also

  because there are -- there are also most vulnerable because digital

  literacy on the other side of digital -- the disparate on digital

  literacy, access use, the major of the -- domestic nature of African

  homes is that women manage the small bills in homes.  And the ones who

  use the mobile money, they're the ones who manage the homes.

    So even being targeted by what we call them -- the social engineering

  tactics was very easy.  Like someone being told that your child is

  sick, please send this kind of money or they're in danger.  And there

  would be vulnerable too from that point.

    So we -- with those projects we started seeing the need of getting

  more women into the space of cyber security capacity.  We started -- we

  partnered with ITU, we partnered with some of the universities that

  were working on -- Universities in Cape Town, in Tanzania, in global

  cyber -- capacity building, CC B for women.  And from there I see more

  women participating, they're lumized in those programmes, participating

  actually.

    So I worked at the GCSEC for like one or two drn one and a half to

  two years.  And then I felt like I wanted develop my research capacity.

  And I moved to Riyadh.  And the first project with Riyadh was

  conceptualizing the feminist principles that would go into the GDC.

  What the new deal that we want.  That is -- resonated so much with me

  because through my work I have seen how women have been affected.  This

  pro -- disproportionately by ICT.  They lack access, lack of

  representation, with the new technologies, they become even more

  marginalized because they're into the seen in the new technologies like

  AI, which also automatically makes decisions for them.

    So these decisions are blieasked even in the first place.

    And from there we started developing not just feminist principles but

  African perspectives.  To which epter these global processes that are

  actually starting.  Which we are continuing to make submissions, to

  engage with the technical envoy with other partners on this feminist

  principles.

    In every submissions that you also make, we also try to see the

  gender perspective of it.  And from the access research, I think this

  is something that you've been seeing through the IGF.  The inequalities

  that -- that are actually reflected from the after access salaries,

  that even are so much disproportionately affected in such a way that

  there's so much economic -- for them to participate economically,

  politically and even socially.

    And what the access survey does is to provide this subjugated data so

  that you can see the realities of access and how they are affected even

  beyond.

    I'm going to stop here and then I'll work on any questions if you

  have.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Thank you very much.  I commend my panel

  because I think you have made our work a little easier because you have

  managed to touch on a number of things, interventions, from looking at

  your experiences, and what the barriers.  And maybe even some of the

  opportunity.

    So what I would like to do now -- because I am mindful of time and I

  also would like to give space for discussion and dialogue and Q&A, so

  I'm going to open the floor now for questions, comments, input.  Both

  from the online and those that are physically in the room.  And for

  this I am going to hand over to you Alice, to manage for us this

  process and Fabiola, I think we are support online interventions.

    >> ALICE MUNYUA:  Thank you to all the other panelists.  I'd like to

  open it up to any questions.

    From the room.

    The microphones, one there, one there.

    And also roving microphones here.

    This one's -- this passage.

    >> I want only to say what I told her many years ago.  She looked at

  me in one of these -- one of these meetings and said to me -- because I

  offered and put up my hand to take notes.  And she said you never do

  that.

    But actually as -- as someone said, I don't know who was it, was it

  you Liz, someone said if you take notes, it does give you a certain

  kind of power as well.

    >> Yes, it does.

    >> I just wanted to say that I think -- I mean, it's really amazing

  to listen to the stories.  And Alice said movies is a good idea.  Liz

  is right there.  My name is Anut swornson and together with African

  Union and organise the Internet African school on Internet governance

  each year.  One thing I can say to that is we've made huge progress.

  We never struggle to get good women who are experts.  Towela is one of

  the founders of the school.  She's very difficult to get hold of.

  She's so busy.  There are women in the field.  We have been on this

  panel here.  And there are others.

    And so the expertise is there.  We always have at least half the

 participants also women.  But there are still -- they still resistance.

  I think there's still particular -- they sort of assumptions.  There's

  assumptions that women experts have to deal with women's issues.  And

  that if women were gender issues are on the agenda, it has to be a

  woman that put them on the agenda.  And I think at the level of

  cultural norms of expectations, of how women behave, there are still

  huge barriers.  You know, I think at -- several of you mentioned the

  bullying, the expectation of how to behave as a woman in the space.

  And you're not supposed to be controversial.  You're not supposed to

  really be challenging.  Particularly not challenging people in

  authority i-think in Africa respect is very much a part of the culture

  of how we work.  And I think it can sometimes be a little bit of a

  barrier.

    But I think -- I mean what we try to do with the African school is at

  least create a space where there is -- where gender a recognized even

  if that's not the focus.  And where participants are made conscious of

  the need to be respectful and to listen to one another.

    So I think as one of our members of -- parl lay, when they wanted to

  participate in this year's school, when they wanted the women staff

  members to type their notes, she said no.  And in a way that's how we

  are trying to contribute to establish more sensitivity to that.

    But I just want to commend you.  Really.  I was listening to you

  and -- talk of those early years with minister Tuwja, hopefully how

  many challenges there were.  And I really think there has been a

  substantial change.  There's still lots of challenges, but compared to

  the early 2000s, I think there's just -- there is more recognition,

  there is more space for women to be in this space.  And I think it's

  done by people like yourselves.  And Allison over there as well.  Who

  never stops annoying government officials and policy-makers with all

  her very disturbing statistics.

    >> FABIOLA FRICK:  Thank you Andrea.

    >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you Alice, for moderating this and thank

  you for weathering everything that you went through.  And it is

  absolutely wonderful.

    I am a woman.  You will be surprised because on my right side is a

  woman.  I know my left side is a man.  So together if you take the word

  woman, you put a bracket on -- at the man, so you find the set is a

  woman.  And a man in a subset.  So I am a subset of a woman.

    My mother didn't go to school.  And it is because of a man.  His

  brother, when she passed to go to the grade 4, she was told that you

  cannot go to school because you are supposed to be working doing the

  fields and taking care of the cows.

    So when my mother told me that story, I made up my mind then when I

  was in permanent school that when I grow up, you know, if I have a boy

  and -- and a girl, they will grow on equal footing.

    So thank you for everything.

    So my thing really is to say that we really need to make sure that we

  continue to support girls and boys to grow up together, to work

  together.  Support each other.  So that as they grow up to become full

  women and men, they defend each other in terms of supporting each

  other.  That is all I wanted to say.  Thank you.

    >> FABIOLA FRICK:  Thank you for being an ally.  Sorry, I had --

    >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I had my hand up.  I'm behind you.  Hello.

    >> I'm so sorry.

    >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's okay.  Can I ask -- thank you.  Sorry.  So

  my name is Tigus, I am from APC.  So now everyone is looking at -- so

  I'm just scared.

    I been following the conversation actually online because I was

  supporting a friend who was in need of some consulting.  But thank you

  for sending me the link.  So I have listeneded to most of the

  conversation.  It has been very engaging.  And so inspiring to hear

  feminist researchers having a conversation around -- because I think we

  are stuck with gender as part of analysis but not feminism being

  welcome in spaces.  So it's a good and refreshing thing to hear.

    I have a couple of questions.  Maybe if -- if the panelists can

  respond to.  The first one is I mean in this IGF one of the things that

  we have realised it thanks to organizations like APC, after decades of

  struggle that we now get to see online gender based violence with its

  terminology, technology, to gender based violence being part of the

  agenda.  You hear it everywhere, everyone is picking it up.  Which is

  awesome.  It's part of the struggle has been won.  So that's a good

  thing.

    But now for me, my question is it seems like in terms of -- this

  comes from a research perspective.  It seems that we are much move

  inclined into talking about online harassment -- which are really

  valued -- valid conversations need to be having.  And doxxing and --

  there are other predictable thematic areas that we keep on picking up

  on.  And I feel like it has to be a ways in which feminists have to

  start thinking about expanding the idea of violence, specifically

  online from a multiple perspective.  And I think I kind of came to that

  realisation after we have experienced it.  I'm also from Ethiopia, a

  war in different regions.  The online space being a prop began ta-dah

  space for ripe for against women.  And that being seen not only from a

  government perspective but even from international media who have been

  recurring around that.  I think that kind of recoding -- that kind of

  work needs to resurface in the space so the urgency of the matter can

  be much more pertinent.  So that's my invitation.  And also I would

  like to ask for people to start thinking about expanding the idea of

  online gender based violence for multiple spaces.

    The other one is how feminist is our work.  I think I'm asking that

  because we tend to write feminism but we end up doing a gender

  analysis.  For me they are two different things because feminism has

  its own values in prioritizing women in gender based communities and

  that sense how do you reflect about this picture that we are working on

  and how are you dealing with trying to bring in feminist issues in that

  space by dealing with those who are only interested in the and national

  sis of it.

    The last question I have is also how do you deal with chk -- this is

  also again from a research perspective.  One of my crit teaks that I

  have in this kind 6 # gender based violence we tend to categorize women

  and LGBTQ violence together.  Even in the conversation that being about

  women.  How do feminists stafrt making sure that they -- the

  eligibility community are not just there as a list but also as an act

  of allies and act of contribute he shalls of knowledge.  I'm asking

  that question.  Thank you.

    Chk.

    >> FABIOLA FRICK:  Thank you for those questions.  Would any of the

  panelists -- because these are research questions.  Can I hand that to

  Nnenna and to Liz.  Do you want to respond?

    Nnenna please.  Nnenna can start.  Is Nnenna still online?

    >> NNENNNA IFEANYI-AJUFO:  Yes, I'm here.  Thank you very much and I

  think it's also a very important question for Bonnita.  She hats also

  been engaged in research.  Just to say that to these points they're

  very, very valid.  One of the things, the project that I talked about,

  the project that we're struggling to work on, I think Chapter 2 of that

  book is entirely on the topic I've termed after fro cyber feminism.

  Intrusting the -- you're talking about these points.  I agree with you

  sometimes it seems like the conversation is all about just cyber

  harassment. But I also want to point out that there are also other

  aspects of the -- it's a broad discourse more than -- in fact when

  Towela was talking, apart from rural women there's also questions of

  refugees, women who are refugees in Africa nobody is really talking

  about this group in terms of access, in terms of rights.  There are

  absolutely so many discussions that need to be had.

    But I just want to say that except we work together, I've been very

  careful not to talk about personal experience because if I do, people

  in the room or people online would actually pinpoint at maybe who I'm

  referring to in terms of sochl of the conversations and the challenges

  that we tend to have.

    One of the things also pointed out too is we've moefed from the space

  of technical expertise to broader aspect, policy and all of that.  And

  I'm excited to see that Allison is in the room.  I think we need to

  work more together and bring together the stories, the stories I've

  heard today, gives a reflection of the research perspectives we need to

  put out here.  But what challenges tend to have like I said earlier is

  lack of researchers, there are home grown.  Again, I had the cybercrime

  group of the GFCE.  There is also the challenge of the global north and

  Global South dichotomy which you find reflected in issues of research.

  Talking of LGBTQ.  We have to look at the African realities and

  acceptance of these issues and advocacy and continue to push these

  conversations.  The fact there are people in those groups who also want

  to tell their stories because of the African reality to these

  perspectives they can't come out to speak about their realities.  There

  is that goebl south global north dichotomy.  I wish we could move from

  having a confer Kahn conversation to more of a Global South where we

  can look at challenges, and look al commonalities in both regions, it

  would help if you look at for example Latin America and this after froe

  cyber feminism conversations and even from the LGBTQ perspective.

  There is a lot to share.

    So finally, just because of time, there are bodies for example like

  the UNECA, I know they're happy to work with organizations like I know

  research ICT is doing a lot.  I think that it should be more platforms

  for research.  People want to write, I know more and more academics in

  Africa they want to write but you also have this sort of westernized

  approach to writing.  Most people who are writing about Africa are

  actually not in Africa.  And that's a huge challenge.  People tell you

  that publishers don't actually want to work with them because they

  can't validate your authenticity of the research coming from some of

  the universities in Africa.  I find that off putting, it's triggering

  for me.  You find people want to tell your stories more than you can

  actually tell your story.  I think the ent net is here -- the Internet

  governance school, a great agenda.  It would be an opportunity to

  highlight more of these issues as well as give opportunities for more

  platforms for women to talk about these issues from the points you've

  raised.  Thank you.

    >> ALICE MUNYUA:  Thank you Nnenna for that.  Thank you for bringing

  up the global dichotomy.  More nuanced than that.  When you look at

  feminism there's the way Black women look at feminism and the way of

  the nonBlack women look at feminism.  That dichotomy that I think we

  should not shy away from talking about it.

    It should not -- you know it's a controversial issue, we should not

  leave.

    Yeah.  Liz, and then there's a lady --

    >> Liz there's --

    >> ALICE MUNYUA:  I can give you this one.

    Okay.  I can take it out.  To Liz.

    Liz.

    >> Tobias.  Let's -- here take this one.

    >> LIZ OTEMBO:  Is this one working?  Thank you.  I gathered that

  total as was the -- of feminism as its in different regions, which

  actually started talking about.  And this is something that you realise

  not just in my walk with Riya, also with kicker net.  Some of these

  concepts come from the global north because the funding is also coming

  from the global north.  It comes with the conceptualization of how the

  global north faces it.  And when you come to the ground, you realise

  that there's a disconnect.  That people don't really under -- don't

  understand what you're saying or they just listen to you but there's no

  impacts that is actually going to happen.

    The other kinds of differences in these terminologies is how also

  different features in Africa conceptualize the term.  Because it's

  different from sang phone region, East African region, South African

  region.  What you're trying to do at research Ied T Africa is map some

  of these conceptualizations when you're talking to policy-makers, what

  are we equipping them with?  Are we equipping them with evidence from

  what we get from the ground?

    And also with our consultation we also try to reach as wide as we can

  so that we also get the contributions from especially from Franco phone

  which is not really covered in the work that we do.

    So yeah, the other one was on cyber harassment.  And rights.  Which

  is also kind of the same.  Most of the work that organizations in

  Africa and women do first go to cyber harassment, rights, women

  accessing opportunities.  And it is rightly so because we look at these

 things as just one theme.  But it's one theme that is actually

  affecting other areas of women participation.  Be it in business

  participation, because so much businesses are going online.  So much

  marketing is actually going online.  And when women can't participate

  in these social spaces, it means that they can't market themselves.

  They can't even run for office.

    There's this training that we actually did after Kenyan elections,

  where we called women who ride and started getting their experiences on

  how they performed and whether they would like to vie again.  And they

  were so discouraged because of the general -- that they have -- journey

  they've gone through.  So it's a series of harassment, one after

  another and through the campaign period think think this is the last

  one until we go to vote.  And then after voting, they even realise that

  even the promises that they got from the ground, nothing -- nothing

  just actually materialized.  So they think back and they're like all

 these hurdles that they pass through including cyber harassment, was it

  worth it when it doesn't actually translate to a single vote?

    So when we do -- when you actually did that training, and it was a

  whole assumption, not just cyber security training but also for them

  how to engage themselves, much of it covered with the literacy and

  digital literacy.  You start getting hope.  And different approaches in

  how they also engage the society.

    So coming back to the terminologies and how they help how to

  translate on the ground, it's that some of these approaches we have to

  be careful in how we translate them from the West.  Coming down.

  Because it means that these trainings that we do, as much as we get

  funding from them, one, they're not having an impact and true they're

  even doing worse because they go out there with so much confidence, but

  yet they get even more backlash.  When it comes to -- it comes to

  implementation.

    I think the first date of security trainings we emphasize on women

  having a thick skin.  Which really didn't help.  And we tried to

  conceptualize things like how should we take on our content online.

  Should we go with the norms that are actually there?  If a woman is

  supposed to market themselves with how they dress, should they continue

  or should they continue with engaging with content?

    And they started mapping out how much of these women or -- giving

  examples of women politicians, especially who actually engage online

  with political deologies rather than other types of content that are

  quite popular.

    And when telling their realities that there are women who are out

  there that don't actually conform to these content that are popular and

  are actually attract so much cyber bullying and cyber violence and they

  can actually engage in ideologies they start seeing these examples as

  things that can actually work and they've actually started trying them

  out.

    Chk so yeah, in conclusion I think -- yeah, this -- we can form our

  own ideologies of how that would look like.  And how -- what approaches

  that you can use in engaging.  When seeking higher positions, political

  positions, or whatever social positions that you want.

    >> Thank you everyone.  So my first response -- not a question, just

  supplementing the conversation.  Asked a question that are you

  equipping policy-makers with evidence.  And that is my thought process

  this whole time.  Which takes me back to a time last year when I was

  invited as a note taker for a consultation meeting where our -- my name

  is Claire.  I'm from Uganda.  Ministry of information and technology

  was trying to introduce a bill that is going to review policies and

  laws governing the media industry in Uganda and holding consultation

  meetings.  This particular consultation meeting was this big.  With

  just one woman.  Two women.  Another lady and myself was taking notes.

    So I listened to the conversation and the views that everyone in the

  room had and did my job as a note taker.  When I was done with my

  report, what I did was to write my own recommendations as a note taker.

  But okay, this is what was discussed.  But I think that we can do

  better to get more diverse views and I wrote about three pages of

  recommendations at the end.  And then included the list of women, what

  we do and how they can contribute to this discussion.  And I also

  included evidence, one of the rofrts that I test was the report, the

  policy that Bonnita has been working on that talks about cyber

  harassment and stuff.

    And other reports I have talked about issues affecting women in the

  media industry in Uganda.  So I test that to the report and included a

  note in the email to the person who decided -- he's the report, didn't

  participate in the discussion because I had to listen to your views,

  but I also added my views as a woman who's going to a meeting in the

  industry and is affected by this issues.  I've also included

  recommendations of women you can invite in future.

    Within a month or so there was another activity that was involving

  the women that had listed.  So I think sometimes you have to use the

  little opportunity you have to make your mark.  Thank you.

    >> TOBIAS:  Yes, thank you.  I just wanted from the perspective of a

  policy maker and the German development corporation address some of the

  things that have been said here first of all I very much agree with my

  co-panelists that labels are something that is quite difficult and we

  have different conceptualizations between what feminism means between

  the global north and Global South.  It is also something even if I look

  at my own country, Germany you will find a huge diversity of different

  feminist perspectives and streams and I think what is important is not

  to lose the final end out of sight, which is that I mean certainly are

  differences, but I think quite often the issues that we're facing are

  quite basic.  And there are -- there's a lot of common ground, there

  are a lot of interfaces between different diverging opinions that we

  share together.

    And I think if we want to achieve something jointly, I think we

  should focus on that rather than dwelling on or having conceptual

  debates about which label is the right one.

    The second point that I think concerns us as policy-makers a lot is

  also the question of how we translate what we observe, with a we see

  into practice.  Because we -- I mean, we are always interested in

  improving the development interventions that we do.  And I think it's

  very important to have discussions like this.  And rely on the findings

  of research to actually have evidence-based interventions.  And I think

  we often find that we're still lacking a lot of detail, knowledge, of

  what other specific obstacles that women face in terms of access to

  digital services, for example.

    On one hand.  So what's the diagnosis of what is -- what are the

  issues?  And on the other hand what are effective ways, even if we know

  them, how to address them, because we often work also in highly complex

  multistakeholder policy envinements where there are power structures

  ingrained and infomal structures in ministries and organizations.  So

  even having just the diagnosis is not enough to really design effective

  interventions.

    And I think that's why the discussions like this are very important.

    >> My name is Tashi, I'm from India.  It's been a very fascinating

  discussion because although I'm not from the region, I have worked in

  the region in some way or the other.  And I like how everyone talks

  about policy, people talk about regulation.

    My question was I was actually looking at what are some of the best

  practices and solutions that organizations have when it comes to

  convincing women to come forward and report a complaint.

    And also -- and complaint of an abuse or harm.

    I used to work on building multilingual repository of hate speech

  lexicons.  Policy -- people were talking -- someone was here from

  policy.  Policy actually used a data set for a report that they did out

  for online abuses against female politicians in Uganda.  And I think

  there's also a new report out for the tan saneian region.  I'm more

  interested in learning about how these discussions can help platform

  accountability.

    Not with big tech but maybe smaller platforms that would take chk

  these mechanisms seriously.  But I'm really curious as to how Mozilla

  is leading that work or GSZis leading that work in keeping platforms

  accountable and how do we find solutions.  Because there are so many of

  these mechanisms but we also see that a lot of women are not confident

  with moving online and sharing their grievances or complaint.  I know

  I'm running out of time.

    >> That would be the last question.  And Tobias, do you want to start

  with how TGZdeals with that.  The question is some examples.  And we

  want -- yeah.

    Okay.  So -- we've only got five more minutes.  At Mozilla, we're

  very lucky to begin with.  Mozilla was founded by a woman.  (This is

  Alice) we have Michelle baker, she's the chairperson and currency of

  the Mozilla corporation.  And actually more than nearly 90 peshs of the

  executives are women.  So very, very proud.

    Of Mozilla.

    You know, and we actually really work hard to try and engage as many

  women as we can.  And not just engaging them, but we go beyond.  For

  example understanding the role that women play in society and community

  that there's still that societal expectation chths so we make space for

  that kind of thing.  For example parental understanding that the

  parental obligations are usually, you know, harm placed on women.  And

  a real emphasis on engaging -- on capacity building, especially you

  know for women.

    We haven't got it right yet.  It's still an issue.  And it's still an

  issue we are struggling with.  Even as a mission-based company.  And

  really looking for to working with other organizations to be able to

  find really lasting and sustainable solutions to support that.

    And in fact that brings me to one issue that we've done for example

  and together with the African Union and Towela we conducted the

  research on the status of system and women entrepreneurs.  That is one

  thing we haven't touched on.  The African continent, more than 80 #

  percent of micro, small and medium entrepreneurs are women.  And yet

  they receive only zero.3.  Not 2 percent of funding and BC support

  across the continent.

    Then when you go to the states where I live, recently I'm sure -- I

  don't know how many of you had -- there was an appeal you know where a

  court ordered a Black woman organisation, I can't remember what it's

  called -- to pose providing funding to Black women.  Claiming

  discrimination, a conservative group.  Yet when you look at the amount

  of VCs that those Black women in the U.S. receive, 0.3 percent.  You

  know, so we still have a huge problem.  You know, women do most of the

  work and we still haven't managed to come up with solutions.

    So I'll end there.  I'm so sorry, I cannot accommodate any more

  questions.  I would like to handle over back to Towela for closing

  remarks.  Back to you Towela.  Thank you.  #.

    >> TOWELA NYIRENDA-JERE:  Thank you very much for the different

  comments, questions and input I'm going to attempt to give us maybe

  five key take-aways from this discussion.

    First one I think is that we need to acknowledge and recognize the

  fact that there are very many dimensions in terms of talking about

  feminism and a feminist Internet.  There are also very many dichotomies

  that exist as we navigate that space.

    Second thing I think that is important as a recommendation is that we

  need to really put a lot more emphasis on experience sharing and this

  experience sharing should be between the different stakeholders in the

  continent, between regions on the continent, between Africa and the

  Global South and of course in the Global South and the global north.

    The third one I think is that we need more opportunities and spaces

  to bring out the data, the evidence, the insights.  We need to be able

  to tell our own stories as Africans and African women.  We need to

  value each other.  We need to value our work.  And value our research.

  Oftentimes we value the research that comes at us and to us from

  outside the continent and I think we need to start valuizing our own

  research and creating spaces where we can undertake this research but

  also disseminate findings to our policy-makers and into the spaces.

    The fourth one I think is capacity building that we need, need to

  continue investing in capacity building.  Cyber capacity building may

  be more specifically.  And to this point I think just to mention the

  fact that there is an Africa cyber capacity building agenda that it has

  been developed that will be launched later this year.  And I think it

  will be in -- for all of us to see how do we participate in that,

  contribute to that, to make sure we are building the requisite

  capacity, but again being mindful of the fact that this should not be

  an elitist type of way that we work when we look at capacity building

  because that capacity has to start all the way from the grassroots and

  find its way in terms of making sure that we are equipping everybody

  that needs to be equipped on the continent.

    The last one I think is really about the accountability and really

  looking at the fact that we have an over arcing framework in the AU,

  digital traerj and all the frameworks emanating from that.  And then

  the question is how do we make sure that we are holding each other to

  account.  How do we make sure that issues of gender indeed are being

  adequately captured and reflected as we develop all these different

  frameworks, strategies and implement them.

    Lastly, I think that -- so you know, going out of all of this, I

  think perhaps if I recall from the Africa IGF, one of the things that

  was raised is that we like to talk and we talk a lot.  And then we talk

  and then we leave and nothing happens.  For the question for us is what

  is going to happen after this.

    Personally, I think -- and as myself, my commitment is really on the

  digital strategy.  Really making sure that when we are starting to

  implement the strategy, that these issues that we are talking about

  will be adequately reflected and then I'm inviting all of you also to

  think, you know, what is your commitment.  What is it that you are

  going to do in terms of taking forward some of these things that we

  have discussed today.

    I will invite you to continue the discussions.  For those of us

  online, we will continue online for those at the IGF, please make use

  of your breaks and all the other spaces to have these conversations.

  And with that I want to thank my panelists, Alice, Nnenna, Bonnita,

  Liz, and Tobia, and thank you for Fabiola and Katherine working in the

  background and wishing you all a great day further and also an

  enjoyable rest of the IGF.  Thank you very much.