IGF 2021 - Day 4 - Networking #16 Supporting the Dynamic Coalition on Internet Standards, Security an Safety

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF virtual intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.



>> We all live in a digital world.

>> We all need it to be open and safe.  We all want to trust.

>> And to be trusted.

>> We all despise control.

>> And desire freedom.

>> We are all united.

>> (speakers off mic).

>> Are we live?

>> Yes.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Hi, can you hear me?

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Hi.  What shirt are you wearing today?  Just show him.  Turn to the camera, Mark.  I was really impressed the other day it was a splash of color.

>> I have banana on the shirt.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  I can't see it.  Ask the camera to zoom in.  (Laughing).

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Welcome to the networking session of Dynamic Coalition on Internet standards, security, safety.  Yesterday we changed the name, made a decision to name ourselves Internet Standards Security Safety Coalition, so that is something that will be announced officially through the IGF channels fairly soon.  With me is Jancie Richardson, she's the vice-chair of the working group 2 of this Dynamic Coalition.  On the right side is Salvio the vice-chair of the working group.  We have other -- I can't see who is online, but I understand the Chair of working group 2 on education is online and Mark Carvell the Senior Policy Advisor is online.  And that's what I can see.  I can see you Mark, but I can't see anybody else.  So, we have two people in the room, how many people do we have online?  5.  Mark, I suggest that you --

   >> MARK CARVELL:  I can see Raymond.

   >> MODERATOR:  I can see Raymond now.  Yes, hi, Raymond.  And who else is online, Mark?

   >> MARK CARVELL:  I'm sorry.  Kwaku Antwi, Awo Tenasu, Levente Dobszay at the moment.  I just come from the best practice forum on cybersecurity.  I did a big message there about switching from there to here, but they have another 15 minutes to run, so hopefully people will switch, and I said you know, from norms -- they were discussing norms but also talking about vulnerabilities, and I said come talk to us because we will discuss really about the practicalities of enhancing security and addressing vulnerabilities through standards.

So, I hope the message will help deliver some more participation.  Thank you.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  We'll see.  Thank you, Mark.  We have two people in the room, so perhaps we can ask you to introduce yourself in a moment.  I see Awo, so welcome, Awo online.  Let me start.

>> AWO:  Thank you.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Let's make a very short introduction of the Dynamic Coalition for those already participating.  The idea is to make the Internet more secure and safer through the massive deployment of already-existing security-related Internet standards and ICT best practices.

So somehow there is a gap between the theory of Internet security and the daily practice of insecurity and how can this gap be closed.  For that we have started with three working groups.  The first one is on security by design, a sub-working group on Internet of Things because in the future, there could be other topics under that header.  The second is on education and skills, so closing the gap between what is currently offered in tertiary education cybersecurity and Internet governance and architecture is concerned, versus what society specifically and specifically industry demands from students coming out of.tertiary facilities.  The third is on procurement, so if governments and large organizations and industry would procure more secure devices, services, and products, then automatically there would be a business case for securer products and positive pressure on industry to produce more secure by design.

Next to that we have what I call blank spaces, so they could be working group on consumer protection, there could be a working group on consumer advocacy, on what current regulators in privacy or telecommunications or technicalities or consumer protection could actually do with the current law.  What does the law currently offer on the duty of care to produce to manufacturers?  What are privacy rules, what do they actually offer if you look at it from a different angle, from the angle of securing products for cars and planes, et cetera, and for food it's all normal to have these sort of regulations in place, but it's not for the Internet industry, and should that change somehow over the future?  That is something that could be explored in the future, but we have not taken it up to start with.

We are aiming to produce tangible outcomes in the manner of the IGF +, and the tangible outcomes could take the form of policy guidelines, recommendations, it could be a toolkit, it could be a capacity-building program, depending on the sort of outcome that we'll produce and what the world asks for when we produce them.

I'm sorry for that.  I'll silence it as soon as I finish the introduction.  We're going to present several research proposals in the near future from all three working groups, and I will ask my vice-chairs or the chair depending on who is going to present online, to give a very short introduction on their plan, just two or three minutes, and then we hand over the floor because this is a networking session so that we get to know each other and not that we are talking to you the whole time.

So, as you are in the room, Janice, let me start with you and you give a very short update, and then you do it for your group, and if Mallory is in the other session, she'll be here soon and will give the word as well.  Janice, please.

   >> JANICE RICHARDSON:  I represent Working Group 2, and Working Group 2 is about education and what is the difference and where are the gaps between what young people are graduating, the skills and knowledge that they're graduating with, what are the expectations of industry, and why is there such a gap?  Because we know that it's young people normally that should be bringing in the innovation into the world of cybersecurity.  If they're not getting the right knowledge, right skills, and the right training, then how are we going to meet this growing demand of cybersecurity?

We will be conducting research beginning with interviews, validation with vocational training centers, and then a survey to gather some quantitative data, and finally this will result in report around the middle of next year we hope, but also let's hope some workshops and a lot of lobbying to make sure that these lacking skills, these lacking knowledge are actually met by education systems and vocational training.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  And the word goes over to Salvio to present on Working Group 1 on IoT security by design.

>> SALVIO:  Thank you.  So in Working Group 1, we're looking at what we have still up until now around cybersecurity best practices and standards for IoT from different backgrounds, from IGF, IEEE, from the ICANN, from many, many companies and institutions and organizations, and we are also trying to understand which parts of the standards and best practices are being deployed, and for those who are not being with deployed, why they're not being deployed?  And also the the lack we have in some parts of cybersecurity in the ecosystem of IoT, the IoT ecosystem.  So we know that we need more standards and best practices, so we are aiming to map this need for standards.  But also we need to understand why the current documents and initiatives are not being deployed or used by the end users.  So this is our current work and we are working in -- oh, I saw Yuri just join us.  So if you want you can add some other things, but now we -- I think he's saying something --

   >> YURII KARGAPOLOV:  Continue, please.

>> Salvio: --

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Yuri is Chair of Working Group 1.

   >> YURII KARGAPOLOV:  I'm sorry, trouble with the connection in my university office.  Now it's okay.  Excuse me.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Very welcome Yuri, and Salvio is taking care.  So please finish, Salvio.

>> SALVIO:  Okay.  Thank you.  This is the point we're working on now.  We are analyzing, we are creating the structure for making a general analysis of the documents we have now.  And for the next year, we are looking for some other possibilities of research, maybe as Mark mentioned, something about how to handle the operations of some home IoT devices or some other categories of devices Cloud-based, Edge-based and so on, and so this is what we are planning for the upcoming work.  I think that's it for now.  Maybe I can -- if Yuri can add something.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Thank you, Salvio.  For the third time now I forgot to introduce myself because I always like to go to the topic.  My name is Wout de Natris the Coordinator of this Dynamic Coalition.  The floor is now to you online and here in the room in Katowice.  I would like to ask you to step up and introduce yourself and express your interest in this Dynamic Coalition and all three are welcome to do so, and then we'll go online for the people that are there, and then Mark I'll ask you to coordinate.  Please.

   >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you very much.  It's my pleasure to attend this IGF this time here.  My name is Asim Adil and I'm IT consultant, and I work for GIZ, I'm based in Frankfurt and my interest is about data vulnerabilities which we are facing and that is posing a threat to the common population, by either it is misused by the attackers or the others or governments.  So these topics are very much highly interesting for me, and I would like to stay in touch and know more about it if there is something happening.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Thank you very much.  You're very welcome to join.  If you have a business card, we'll make sure to reach out and can you join perhaps as a expert join discussions and debates on what we are doing.

   >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I will leave my business card here.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Thank you very much.

   >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hello.  My name is Alexandre Sanyan and I'm teaching Internet governance in Russia and actually we have now kind of the same issues as you said as main targets of this Dynamic Coalition.  So but present to communicate to each other and especially communicate to somebody outside, so I joined this networking sessions to have a look at what this Dynamic Coalition is actually producing and how it works and intersessional between IGF and maybe provide expertise or recommend somebody who will help you to prepare documents or reach targets, especially using our non-speaking English region.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  If you have a business card, please leave it on the chair as well because we think it's very welcome to discuss from your country and region and have your expertise, so that's an offer that is very welcome.  Sir, can I invite you.  Please introduce yourself also.

   >> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  My name is Amil Spinosa and I come from Mexico and I am the representative of the private sector in Latin America at the MAC at the IGF, and I am interested in learning about standards and what you are doing at this coalition and, yeah, how we can take advantage of your expertise.  Thanks.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Yes, and how can we get the messages we have better across to the MAG and from there translate into perhaps others.  So, that's very, very welcome that you're here, so thank you for attending.  And this is exactly the meeting of this networking session so that we have some experts on board, as you notice with very good ideas on how to proceed in the dynamic coalition but we need more experts to work with and not just to produce the outcomes, but also to validate intermediate draft reports so that we know it's addressing the communities in the right way so the messages come across in the specific stakeholder language.  Mark, I hand it over to you for now to invite people who are interested in the Dynamic Coalition to express interest and introduce themselves.  The floor is yours, Mark.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Okay.  Wout.  Thank you very much.  By way of introduction for me, I worked with Wout since -- well before the start of the coalition at last year's IGF before we launched it.  He and I worked together in the previous year following the Parlar project looking at the whole issue of standards and gaps and deployment.  My background is UK government and I was a policymaker on Internet policy for the UK and international organizations, including the IGF going all the way back to 2008 at ICANN, I was in the UK seat and Council of Europe on the human rights side I represented the UK, and I worked -- I led the UK negotiations in the G7 on digital for a couple of years.  Now I'm a kind of free agent, relatively speaking, and working with the coalition and with EuroDIG on other activities related to this whole area of Internet governance, but this is a key mission for me to advance this coalition focused on standards and deployment and creating greater security and safety online.

So that's me.  I will just quickly run through the list of online subscribers, so I'll start with Awo, and would you like to say a few words, Awo about why you're here and what you're hoping to get out of this session?  Thank you.

>> AWO TENASU:  Right.  Hello, everyone, from Ghana.  My name is Awo like Mark said.  Yes, we are joining the networking session today to support the call which is of the coalition, but on the personal level to see where we could team up in promoting a proactive change in the interest of child protection, and so prevention and protection in the space holistically, and so that aspect of Internet governance is key for me, and most often than not, yes, we follow through with (?) and what has been doing and sometimes we adapt some of the contents for our audience to use as well.  So, essentially, I lead a team of Child Online Africa.  Thank you.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Thank you very much, Awo.  It's great to have you linked in to us, and I'm sure there are several areas of specific focus of the coalition where your background and expertise and activities are going to be highly relevant.  And in child protection, we haven't really looked at specifically, but I always have it at the back of my mind.

Now, let me turn to Lavente Dobszay.  Hopefully I pronounced that correctly?

>> LAVENTE DOBSZAY:  I am work for Swiss Association for Electrical Engineering and Power and Information Technologies, and we understand that the national standardization body for electrical engineering and electric security, and we are committed to ethical safety and security for over 130 years, and the same is we want to achieve for digital security.  And we aim for security from information standard like we have for low-voltage insulations maybe.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Thank you very much.  This is multistakeholder engagement in practice, to have you here from the technical engineering community.  Fantastic.  Let me now turn to Wintima Hannah just to say a few words about your interest in the coalition, and why you're here, and what you're hoping to get out of our discussion today, just a few words, I'm sorry, you just arrived so I put you on the spot maybe.  I hope you don't mind.

>> WINTIMA HANNAH:  Hello.  Hello?  Can you hear me?

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Yes.  Fine.  Do you want to say a few words about your interest here?

>> WINTIMA HANNAH:  Okay.  I just want to say something brief.  I'm currently in school.  I'm much interested in security.  Hello?

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Okay.  Great.

>> WINTIMA HANNAH:  Okay.  Women in Internet security, one thing I notice is when you get women in Internet you have to have enough women who get involved and it has been one challenge in terms to some of us who are now venturing into the Internet scope or considering issues around Internet, and how are women tackling these issues concerning the security and how in their working scope are we embracing the Internet and what measures are we putting in place to help women in this environment?  Myself in particular, I'm new to the Internet, but as time goes on it's getting more interesting, and I just wish to be able to understand along the line as I try to -- once I learn so that I'll be able to help my generation even as we work along.  Basically, that's what I have and my expertise is that identity, and the lessons I secure here will help me to do a lot for women, in particular.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Thank you very much.  That's a very important aspect of all of our work.  The gender balance in terms of how we do the work but also focusing on gender issues, and I'm sure we will get into our work in the future.

>> WINTIMA HANNAH:  And I think one thing I want to talk about is to appreciate my way for the convenor, the founder for what do you call it, IGF, the Internet school of Internet governance, Mr. Raymond, I go through his organization and I started having interest in the Internet scope because I had opportunity to get enrolled last year, and it was awesome because we learned a lot, so many materials were shared to us through the both the online and we also had opportunities to meet face to face.  And a lot was shared to us and that's how come I started embracing the Internet Society, because initially we thought -- I didn't really see anything wrong with what I do when it comes to Internet, but that is why I started appreciating what privacy is, and the boundaries each and every one of us have when it comes to the Internet security and what is security all about, and do we just get up and start posting everything.  Right now I'm a bit careful when I share any information about myself, but initially, I could just get up and do anything.  And even when someone requests for information about me, I used to just give it out.  But currently, due to that program I had, it's really helped most of us and it's been helpful to me, and I just want to use this platform to thank you and I appreciate the program as well.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Thank you.  Great feedback for you there, Raymond.  Okay.  We've only got what another 30 minutes or so, so let's quickly invite the other online participants to say who they are and one or two sentences on your interest.  I see Robin Gelhard, would you like to say a few words.

>> ROBIN GELHARD:  I work for Netherlands standardization Forum advisory committee for Dutch government on interoperability and information exchange and yeah what we do is we among others is we select key Internet standards, security standards, and we get advice to the government whether they should mandate sump security standards for government agencies, and in case we do, we help government agencies to implement these standards and to drive adoption of these standards.  We have some good practices as we can share, so if people are interested, I'll put the link to our website in the chat which also contains my contact details and, yeah, I'm also curious on other good practices to drive adoption of standards for government agencies, for example.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Okay, Robin, again, this is exactly a great fit for this coalition, the linkages into government and procurement and so on.  Fantastic.  Thanks very much for joining.  Now I go to Batsirai, would you like just to say who you are and your interest? 

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Maybe you can't unmute?  Temporarily away?  Shall I go now to -- oh, yes, please go ahead.

>> BATSIRAI MADONDO:  Good afternoon.  I'm just a volunteer but my interests are Internet governance and happy to be here here.  I can't hear you.  You're muted.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Where are you?

>> BATSIRAI:  Zimbabwe.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Our first contact with stakeholder in Zimbabwe.  Thank you very much for joining.  Let me go to Kwaku.

>> KWAKU ANTWI:  I'm from Ghana and I wear several hats but today I'm on a committee for government regulatory agency which uses skills and deployment of skills, what we call the technical vocational center, ICT skills be committee, and so I'm here wearing that hat and also looking at how we can inpart skills in giving people the requisite security skills, the requisite cyber skills that we will be able to also have more for training of the trainers to replicate this in our society.  And I'm grateful to be here with the coalition.  Thank you for the opportunity.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Thank you, Kwaku.  That connects directly with Janice in Working Group 2.  Thanks very much.  Now let me go to Bart.  If you could introduce yourself and say your interest briefly?  Bart?

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Still waiting.  Maybe Bart is still muted?  Well let me go -- maybe we'll come back.  Let me go to, I never thought I would say this, but let's go to Prince Andrew.  Prince Andrew, would you like to say a few words?

>> PRINCE ANDREW:  Hello.  Everyone.  My name is Prince Andrew from Zuta from Ghana member of e-governance and Internet governance from Africa.  My interest mostly is in universal (?) and working in some few working groupses making sure that the Internet is universal and everybody gets access to it, and I'm happy to be part of this call.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Great.  Thanks very much for joining.  Bart, do you want to have a go if you can unmute?  I see a message in the chat.  The microphone does not seem to be working.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Mark, this is Wout.  Bart is a colleague of Robin, so we basically heard the message, but then that way I can introduce Bart for him, that he works for the Forum Standardization and is very much a driver of the supply or explain Internet standards list that the Dutch government is actively advocating for, the whole of the Dutch government at all levels and so the idea is that you have to apply these standards, and if you cannot, you have to explain why you're unable to do so.  And that puts some pressure on organizations to actually implement and deploy all of these standards and best practices.

I hope I said that right, Robin.  I see you on the screen so you can nod.

>> ROBIN GELHARD.:  Bart is also Internet manager for Internet.ML so a testing tool for Internet standards, I'll put a link in the chat as well, an Open Source project by the way so you can reuse it.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Yes, and I've can I I've been advocating it throughout IGF for you guys, and I just noticed that the UN comes up to 11%, they were quite shocked when they saw it, and so they also learned a lesson.  Mark, back to you.  Thank you.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Okay.  Wout, thanks very much.  Thanks very much everybody in the room and online introducing ourselves.  You've heard about what the coalition aims to do from the introduction that Wout gave and also some of the specifics of the current work and projected work of working groups.  Maybe Mallory will join us to explain about the procurement if she's still tied up as the Chair of the working group 3 on procurement and supply chain management.  And the theme for this kind of to structure our discussion a bit is about how to empower stakeholders, to drive the deployment of standards, security-related standards and related best practice, and when I talk about stakeholders, it's a lot of people here representing those stakeholders, educationalists, technical -- obviously technical community, government policymakers, private sector decision takers in the corporate area, you know, academics as well, and experts all through the line really, who are engaged on security and delivering security for consumers.

And the manufacturing sector, of course, is important because they can design standards into products, so that people actually are aware of them and that there may be issues about raising awareness of what or how good a device is in terms of providing security and safety and confidence and trust in being online, especially for individuals, for small businesses who are going into the whole digital economy for the first time and so on.  So empowering stakeholders, what are your thoughts on this and how can you coalition help with that challenge, really, to the whole technical community, to the industry, to bridge this gap between the incredibly valuable work in developing standards and the gap which is that, you know, a lot of these standards are not actually embedded in the networks and devices that we're all using to the cost of our insecurity.  Insecurity in practice as Wout has talked in those terms, and how do we make security practice universal?  So who wants to come in with some first thoughts about that?  About how the stakeholder community can work together to achieve greater online security and safety through specifically existing standards being deployed more effectively?  Who wants to react to that?  I can't see any hands.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Janice has a hand up and Yuri had his hand up a while back.

   >> JANICE RICHARDSON:  Yes.  I think this is a very interesting question because as a expert in this field, I've actually been online in many different places trying to find a list of these standards, and how can the public be aware if us experts can't even find a list of the relevant standards, so I would say that's the first thing.  Bring them together.  Make them visible and then let us raise awareness about them.  The consumer, the user must be aware of them before they can really be discerning when they choose the products that they're using.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Thank you, Janice.  How can that information be presented to consumers though?  Often when you buy an electronic device, do we ever look at the technical specifications?  No, we covalent, because we just don't understand it and it's too complicated.  Is there a communication issue there too, Janice?

   >> JANICE RICHARDSON:  First of all, there is an availability issue.  I want to know where these are.  And the only place I actually found them was a paying website, and how many consumers are going to go there?  So that's the first thing.  Bring the standards together and make it free of charge to enter them and to see them.  But the second thing is now when we buy a refrigerator or any other device, we can see a grading.  Why don't we have this sort of grading on security?  It would be really helpful, and it makes the public aware that there are standards they should comply to.  This morning I watched the test at Internet.nl at the UN website and I saw that the answer very clearly showed the areas where security was lacking.  But why isn't this sort of thing generally available to the public?

So I think there are a number of ways.  One, make it visible to the people that are most concerned about it so that they can start doing the awareness raising.  Two, if we have this information we should get it into schools because that's where it should be and into vocational training establishments.  Three, develop some sort of security rating systems on websites, on software, on apps.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Robin, question from me to you because this goes beyond your scope because you're working solely for a government organization, but are you aware of initiatives like this that could actually educate the consumers and end users in a better way?

>> ROBIN GELHARD:  No, not really.  I think Internet.ML for that purpose is meant as a lower entry into assessing the security of websites and email security, so basically everyone can test or use it, and use the reports to question suppliers, for example, or organizations that they do business with.  Yeah, and I think like knowledge about standards is lacking in education, and actually I got interested into standards through education, but that was more like a voluntary option than it was part of my curriculum.  So, yeah, it would be good if there was more emphasis on getting standards and security standards into education, but not sure how yet.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  I just -- this reminds me of a briefing that Wout and I had earlier this year from the Singapore Subsecurity Agency who got a labeling system, and I think they have been talking about it here at the IGF in Katowice, so that's one interesting initiative, and maybe kind of norm might develop on labeling of equipment and devices.

The other point that I think is well taken about education.  Now, Yuri, you wanted to come in, didn't you, earlier.  Do you still want to speak?  Yuri?

   >> YURII KARGAPOLOV:  Yes.  I think that, of course, we in the framework -- in the working frame of our dynamic coalition we're not able to write and use standards or maybe some best practices or instruction and about best practice, but I think that we can understand the situation, the current situation, and the problems that are now with the very sensitive challenges with security and safety.  Where was security and safety are beginning?  I think that this one begins in our mind, and sure it's connected with education, it's connected with professional skills.  Sure.  But what I think is there is a general structure of security from end to end, and I mean structure from building security in digital entity, it's maybe websites and maybe devices, differing devices, IoT devices, not IoT devices, gadgets, maybe emails, and other Internet services.  It's a big and complex -- so Cloud or security which can cover of our activities, all kinds of our activities and the complexity of the situation is a situation with multistakeholders and policy actors.  Do you understand me, multistakeholders and policy actors, and stakeholders and actors have diversity difference on aims, tasks, and means for support of security.

And what we can propose to such complex community, and what is maybe result of our work of what may be our outreach, is it a new vision only security and safety issues in general, and maybe it's about what is reasonably in your approaches for solving the complexities of these issues.  Maybe it will be new points of view on the basic and reference models for IoT because the current reference models have lacks to security.  Maybe it's real.  It's real.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Thank you, Yuri.  I think it's a very strong message.  It's a vision, really, of a holistic approach that we make with the whole roster I say of stakeholders, of stakeholder actors that I mentioned in the beginning in terms of empowerment, and including as we've just talked about education across the board from school level right through to vocational, technical educational and so on.  I see, Awo, you commented in the chat about digital citizenship skills, and I think and I'm not sure if you're referring to a specific initiative, but it sounds like a neat way to capture this, digital citizenship that has security right up there as a key component of being a digital citizen.

Okay.  So, let me go see if anybody -- I see we have a new joiner, Christian Nzhie, and everybody who is on this networking, Christian, had the opportunity to say a few words about your interests, so I invite you now Christian to take the mic and unmute to say a few words about your specific interests about how empowering stakeholders from industry, education, from users, from procurers, from the manufacturers, how they can be empowered to create greater security through standards.  My screen is going all over the place.  Christian, would you like to say a few words?

>> CHRISTIAN NZHIE:  Thank you.  Hello.  Can you hear me?

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Yes, we can hear you.  Great.

>> CHRISTIAN NZHIE:  Yes.  I'm Christian actually calling from Ghana Africa.  I'm happy to be here.  The reflection you mention, I would like to say that from my experience and also within the region where I am, I do believe we need an open mind from the community across all the stakeholders also maybe because I do believe without that openness, building a meaningful digital society would be a bit difficult, so because we share about a lot of platform processes and event environment that if we don't have that openness, the openness is one.  And number two is also the collaboration -- as the collaboration that I can also foresee is having a problem because if we don't have openness and collaboration, all that we are trying to put together will have no avail.  That is basically what I can say for now.  Thank you.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Thank you very much, Christian.  And your collaboration is what we're all about, really, trying to foster that collaboration.  Can I ask, in your experience, Christian, what are the main barriers to that?  Is it, you know, people working in silos or lack of opportunity to engage on a platform with other stakeholders, with the government, with regulators, or service providers, network operators, what is the barrier to achieving collaboration in your view, Christian?

>> CHRISTIAN NZHIE:  Thank you for actually bringing that question.  In my view and from what I observe from the community as well is I may say it is self-interest, you know, we have, let's say we have -- let me take a case that is just a simple example where we have technical community in silo mode, right.  Let's say a technical community on a site and maybe in the past they have tried to bring some idea on the table and discuss with maybe the government and Civil Society, and it did not go through like it was expected.  So therefore they withdrew themselves and now they're working in silo he mode and trying to do the standards on their own and working and building their own business and making it work for them.

And on the other side, the government also is working on their own, you know, trying to polish what they are doing and also trying to make sure that the business people must follow what they are doing.  So these are basically the different scenario.  Everybody is working on their own and hoping that all, having in mind that all -- a couple of years ago I have tried to order people to buy into the idea and let me go my way.  And when you call on any of the party to come and do, they say their side is just a waste of time.  I can't come in and discuss because I know that if I come, nothing will be achieved by the end because we are starting fresh, people are coming only for business value, no community, not for the good of people.  We can see that by the end of the day, nobody wants to mingle with the other person because of that choice and collaborative also is very far away.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  There is a very interesting and very powerful points.  And when we as a coalition, do our outreach, we want to connect with potential platforms, with potential fora like national and regional Internet governance fora to advocate that kind of approach, and this is I mean the IGF concept is all about equal basis for exchanging views and working out solutions.  And in the transparent way, so no hidden corporate interests or specific interests, and that is an effective process for engagement.  That's one of the key -- that's a key message, I think, that we will continue to deliver as this coalition and articulate in our outputs.

Okay.  We want to go about five minutes more for discussion.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  This is Wout.  I'm coming in for a moment.  We have 8 minutes.  I have one one question to both rooms, and we've heard this challenge in Ghana, and is there an example among you that have actually dealt with this problem in a positive way so that there is actually communication which could actually lead to some sort of outcome?  Does somebody have an example of how they approached this?  And could that be a practice of a good practice for other countries to follow?  Who would like to answer?  That could mean that there are no initiatives.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  That's what I'm thinking, and that you know, we could be articulating a model in the course of delivering our -- or developing our outcomes.

   >> RAYMOND MAMATTAH:  What was the question?  What initiative?  I think that was -- (Speaking off mic)?

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  What my question was?  My question was whether there are examples among the people present here, if in their country there is some sort of collaboration that is more successful than that Christian has just mentioned about the daily practice in Ghana.

  >> RAYMOND MAMATTAH:  Okay.  Let me leave it to Christian to answer in that case.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Well he's saying that there isn't effective, and there is too much self-interest and not open and transparent and collaborative spirit, so as I understood from Christian, it's something that's not happening.  But are there models as Wout is asking, that we could look at, you know, which we could advocate is best.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  I can mention one, Mark.  In the Netherlands, there is an organization called ECB, and it stands for something which is totally irrelevant compared to what was started about 25 years ago.  They have a position, a foundation or association or one of the two with members, and they position themselves exactly between government and industry and academia and Civil Society.  And what actually happens in the Netherlands is that the government starts some sort of initiative on the specific topic, and after three years they've basically said everything they could, but it's not perfect.  And quite often they give ECB the assignment to bring everybody together, and it's literally working maybe 30 people, but they have these big rooms with a big table.  What they do is they provide the Secretariat for that group, they search for a chair, and together they invite the people to join and discuss the specific topic, and that means that all of these different people with different interests come together and quite often, after two or three or four years of deliberation, it usually takes that long, but then there is some sort of bookwork saying this is the way we're going to operate together, they've talked to each other, spoken together, learned to trust each other, and even on very competitive issues of security where they think they're competitors, they find they have things in common and start solving it together.

There are also an organization called ISEC and I've lost the acronym, and it's on security and within specific sectors.  A banking sector comes together, the energy sector, transport sector, all vital to countries and they work together on security issues, so there are ways that people who are adverse to each other and even in hard competition with each other can come to specific solutions by working together and learning to trust each other and learning to digest sensitive information without using it in a competitive way.

So there are examples around the world that could work, but that means that within the country there needs to be the trust to set up an association or a foundation, whatever it is, of that form that is trusted to do actually the work.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  I've got to raise a red card.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Yeah.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  As coordinator, I'm sorry, it's just that we are running out of time and I see Raymond and Yuri want to say a few words.  Please, keep it very brief and Wout has to finish off with some very important messages.  One minute each.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  Mark, I ask one thing.  Can somebody put the link to the Dynamic Coalition in the chat if it hasn't happened already.  I can't see the chat.  Put the link so that the people that made very interesting contributions can sign up to us.  We heard a few people speaking that we would really like to become a member of this Dynamic Coalition.  I now hand it back to you, Mark, I'm sorry.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Okay.  We're trying to do a lot in the last few minutes, very importantly.  But okay, Raymond and then Yuri, one minute each, maximum.

   >> RAYMOND MAMATTAH:  Okay.  In my case I don't want to go what Christian said but I want to pull to try to make initiatives tanned reach out to other entities of people reluctant to cooperate probably because of their own personal interest, and I have some similar experience when I started the initiative on it, we reach out to some entities who totally kicked against the idea but we're moving on, but on the other hand we have people who, individuals who are interested and we are moving on.  Thank you.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Okay.  Raymond.  Thank you very much for that final port.  Yuri, one minute?

   >> YURII KARGAPOLOV:  I'm finished with my speech, but our coalition should be the platform for searching of the form of collaboration and various type of relevant activities, and relevant I mean for security and safety means.  And this is maybe one of the results of our work.  And because we didn't find, we don't have such a forum for such collaboration, it's very important, it's very important and that in the organizational forum in general.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Okay.  Yuri, well said.  I support you all the way.  Okay.  Wout, back to you.  We have got a link in thanks be to Bart, helping me out.  I'm not very good at multitasking, but we got the link in so please note it, everybody.  Back to you, Wout, for concluding remarks.

   >> WOUT DE NATRIS:  I'm sorry.  Thank you very much, Mark, for moderating and Bart for putting the link in because it's something that I just just can't see here on the screen.  I thank you all for very good ideas that you expressed and interest that you've shown in the Dynamic Coalition.  I'm asking you to join us and help us to build the way forward along the questions that you have been raising because they're part of this program.  We will be writing the research proposals and sending them out into the world to find funding to do the actual research, and we're looking for experts willing to work with us, but also for people who are able to open doors for us.  So we've been having many conversations here from the UN Envoy Office, the Polish Government, Swiss Government, Dutch government, all sorts of associations here at the IGF, so I'm very glad that I came and I was able to have all of these meetings.  I can tell you two things.  We are taking extremely seriously, people coming to me oh, you don't have to explain what you guys are doing because I know the work you're carrying out.  We've got complements of what we have achieved in this past year and how far we have come and they had never expected it.  So in other words, we are progressing in a very good way, but the second year will have to be the year where we really are able to produce some of our indicated outcomes.

So with that, again, please join this coalition and make sure that this is going to work.  And with that, I'm thanking the people here behind the desk for making this all possible, the captioners in the background, you participating, and of course my dear vice-chairs and chairs sitting here in the room or at home.  I wish you all very well in this challenging times and stay healthy and safe, and I hope to meet in the virtual meetings pretty soon so that we pick up the work towards the IGF 2022.  Thank you all for your presence and have a good day and weekend ahead.  Bye-bye.

   >> MARK CARVELL:  Good bye.  Keep in contact.  Bye-bye.